[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa V

[BenBamBoo]

In regards to the scene w/ Dontos it seems they're trying so hard to keep everything a surprise. The escape plan wasn't mentioned nor was the recommended wearing of the purple amethyst hairnet turned blue necklace (lmao) to the wedding. I guess the writers thought these things would scream 'hey make sure you watch out for... xyz'

My guess is that, up until

the end of the PW, they want to keep the viewers unaware of what is about to happen. In the books Sansa is taken by surprise and Joffrey points to Tyrion as he dies. My guess is that when he dies he will point to Sansa instead and she will have one of the gems/vials missing from her necklace. Chaos will ensue at which point LF will swoop in and spirit Sansa away via a message with Dontos. I don't think his part is finished with yet. I hope the 'whodunnit' saga surrounding Joffrey's death is kept up in the show - it was entertaining trying to work out who really did it.

[Le Cygne]

Finally we are seeing the Sansa who wants nothing to do with Tyrion and who is realizing that Tyrion is her enemy. I also liked the interaction with Dontos in that it shows she can still be very compassionate with someone who has done nothing to wrong her or her family. It makes for a good contrast with Tyrion. Also, Dontos brought up his family and how there's no one left and he is in disgrace which is similar to the position Sansa is in. I do hope they show Sansa take more agency in her escape and plotting with Dontos as in the books. I'm still waiting to see how that will all play out before I pass judgment on that.

Yep, pardon my language, but that was quite the "Fuck you!" to Tyrion, and he knew it. "She despises me." Bingo! I was surprised to see it after last season, but it was quite good. Now as for the rest of her story... Would have been a nice moment to say the Hound helped her save Dontos, and expressing a little appreciation for that, Joffrey wasn't buying it until he said Sansa was right.

And I hated the Sansa Lannister of course.

Yeah, don't know how they missed how nasty that is. The viewer's guide has her listed that way, too. Which is so wrong. It's making her a victim twice by calling her that. She's been through enough, don't take her name away from her, too.

[timstanton]

in my opinion, sansa has never been a strong character, in the books or show. most of her chapters in the books deal with a lot of inner-monologue, which is hard to translate on TV. i feel like a lot of her latter chapters are there to get a different someone POV chapters. never really cared about her, still dont. just my opinion.

[Mladen]

Yep, pardon my language, but that was quite the "Fuck you!" to Tyrion, and he knew it. "She despises me." Bingo! I was surprised to see it after last season, but it was quite good. Now as for the rest of her story... Would have been a nice moment to say the Hound helped her save Dontos, and expressing a little appreciation for that, Joffrey wasn't buying it until he said Sansa was right.

I watched these scenes again, and I like this new approach. There is no more "we could try, this might work" approach. Plain and simple, it hasn't been working and it won't work. I kinda like far more that scene than on the first viewing. Mostly because in the books Tyrion knows he can't offer her anything, but in the show, it worked because we had that moment in episode 3.10 where the underlining message of their conversation was "OK, this could work". So, after last season, this comes as fresh air to show us that the marriage in question is indeed travesty and that Tyrion simply can't be both her loving husband and a Lannister. We finally saw disconnect that, truth be told, in the books existed from the beginning, but here was created by such impact made by RW. The more I think about the dynamics between two of them in this episode, the more I like it.

Plus, I am sorry, but entire thing about how difficult is to translate some things to TV, is simply BS. And this episode proves it. From the beginning that symbolically represented the end of Stark reign (I adored how music changed from sad tone of "Winterfell" to sinister tune of "Rains"). Last night we have seen how it works with Ellaria too, where in very short time you got a lot (I am afraid even too much). So, there is a way to translate almost everything, especially internal monologues, you just have to have right approach.

One thing I liked is Sansa knowing how her family ended at RW. In the books, she didn't want to know when Tyrion asked her, and I remember thinking back then that there is at least mutual understanding between two of them and the desire of escaping bad dreams. Here, with much older Sansa, it made sense for her to know (although I kinda hoped last season that we would have seen Joffrey being cruel to her and telling her). So, I feel like there has to be completely new approach to TV Sansa in terms of some things, given that age here does play significant role. IDK, perhaps this is future book Sansa retrograded in position of ASOS Sansa, if that makes any sense :)

As for Dontos, again, I am bothered with her not knowing she will escape at some point, but alas, the narrative demands dramatic turn and I do understand that. We all know what we are going to see next Sunday (or Monday if you are in Europe :)), so after watching it and thinking about it, somehow it perhaps makes sense from producers' POV. They introduced the key element, without emphasizing its importance using one of Sansa's best characteristics - her compassion for others. And it did break my heart, when I realize how wonderful parallel is there between Ice and that necklace and that Sansa, disgraced daughter of traitor whose house is now ended, is giving one moment of "glory" to the house that met the similar end.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Do you think Dontos won't be murdered by LF when Sansa leaves KL and goes with them instead to The Eyrie and becomes the one LF uses to cover up Lysa's murder?

Well they are down a singer, still it's more practical to kill him when he dies in the book.

[Chebyshov]

Well they are down a singer, still it's more practical to kill him when he dies in the book.

I don't know; I don't see who else they'll blame Lysa's death on. I mean of course they could go with RandomGuard#3, but that would be a bit of a buzz kill.

[Theda Baratheon]

YES. I *loved* the quietly resolute ''it's the only place where no one talks to me'' there was no venom, no false courtesies, just a glimpse of a young woman, in her own words, making damn clear how she feels. Fantastic, already much better than season three sansa characterization which I was *not* fond of, though through no fault of Sophie Turner, hopeful for Sansa this season and excited for the next episode ;)

[juanml82]

Well they are down a singer, still it's more practical to kill him when he dies in the book.

Marillion tried to rape Sansa and was covering up Lysa when Lysa tried to kill her. Littlefinger then has him brutally tortured until he makes a false confession and Sansa is perfectly aware that this is all happening and covers up Littlefinger.

Now imagine if that happened to this nice guy Sansa saved back in season 2, who *seems* devoted to her, whom the audience likes and whom Sansa likes.

They could replace Marillion with Dontos, but the change it will make in Sansa's character is huge.

[Colonel Green]

Marillion tried to rape Sansa and was covering up Lysa when Lysa tried to kill her. Littlefinger then has him brutally tortured until he makes a false confession and Sansa is perfectly aware that this is all happening and covers up Littlefinger.

Now imagine if that happened to this nice guy Sansa saved back in season 2, who *seems* devoted to her, whom the audience likes and whom Sansa likes.

They could replace Marillion with Dontos, but the change it will make in Sansa's character is huge.

If he's revealed to have delivered her to Littlefinger, and especially if he then tries to rape her, nobody is going to have any sympathy for him.

Nonetheless, I expect him to meet the same fate as he did in the books.

[King Tommen]

Spoiler from those who have seen the first 3 episodes

Dontos eats it in the exact same fashion as he does in the books

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Marillion tried to rape Sansa and was covering up Lysa when Lysa tried to kill her. Littlefinger then has him brutally tortured until he makes a false confession and Sansa is perfectly aware that this is all happening and covers up Littlefinger.

Now imagine if that happened to this nice guy Sansa saved back in season 2, who *seems* devoted to her, whom the audience likes and whom Sansa likes.

They could replace Marillion with Dontos, but the change it will make in Sansa's character is huge.

Dontos was creepy with Sansa in the books. I am actually surprised they have toned down the creep factor with both Dontos and Tyrion (and Joffrey). Sansa suffered a lot more in the books.

[Dragon of Valyria]

Huh -- had I known that there were dedicated Sansa discussions going on here, I'd have kept discussing the show last season! I stopped about partway through.

At any rate, I am glad Sansa's getting an increasing role in the show as time goes on. She was barely in entire segments of season 2, but thankfully her substantial appearance in Blackwater made up for it. We saw her a lot in season 3, and we got some substantial scenes in the opening episode of this season as well.

Her conversation with Tyrion is excellent. I dislike most changes from the books, but I think in the absence of an internal monologue, continuing to have her armor herself in courtesy would make her feel dense, superficial, or stupid: criticisms I often hear from show-only viewers who tend to be hostile towards Sansa. Here we get to see the depth of her love for her family, and how truly helpless and miserable she feels in captivity. Her hunger strike makes it clear that she feels that she has nothing to live for -- almost similar to what Arya feels at the beginning of her scene, until she has a chance to be motivated by revenge. That's not in Sansa's nature, thankfully.

The Dontos scene is interesting because she doesn't remember him at first. To her, it was a simple, natural act of kindness that anybody would do. To Dontos, it was a life-changing event -- and it's telling how unusual and strange an act of kindness is in King's Landing. It singularly sets Sansa apart from the rest of them. As the member of her family who always stuck out as most suited for a southron court, it now turns out that she -- among all the southron lords and ladies -- sticks out as a truly noble Stark.

[aerislair]

Spoilers for the TV show:

It will.

check out the episode 2 trailer and you will see :)

[voodooqueen126]

Changing her motivation for wearing the hairnet from 'wear this hairnet and it will mean your freedom' to 'wear this necklace because you're such a nice sweet person', was a bit lame.

[juanml82]

Changing her motivation for wearing the hairnet from 'wear this hairnet and it will mean your freedom' to 'wear this necklace because you're such a nice sweet person', was a bit lame.

Yeah, well, if Dontos begun to speak about how the hairnet was justice for her father and everything, a particular event would look rather obvious.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I think this episode was a nice start for the show to begin displaying Sansa's depth more completely. I'm definitely one of those book Sansa fans who gets frustrated when she is out-of-hand dismissed as stupid or dumb by those who don't read the books and only know her based on the show. I think Sansa is such an interesting character with the potential to really become a Catelyn 2.0 (and I'm a huge Catelyn fan so I'd love to see that). I'm glad she was able to dismiss Tyrion and we got to see her expressing her sorrow over her family. I think the Dontos scene was good and though different from the books, I understand why it's not all being laid out. This was a really good start and gives me some hope that we will get to see more and better for Sansa.

Also, Sophie Turner is just getting better and better. They really hit the jackpot when they found Sophie and Maisie.

[Sand11751]

Sansa as a whole gets too easily dismissed, in the way the character was written and in comparison to feisty, sword-wielding Arya, with each sister embodying their Tully vs. Stark heritages. Sansa doesn't have a sword, so she arms herself with dignity, but still gives a few glimpses of that Stark defiance. Part of the problem with the view of her on TV come from the way in which Tyrion has been sanitized by the show. Anytime he tries to comfort her and she rejects him, she looks like a bitch - I've had fellow watchers say to me, "He's trying! Why can't she meet him halfway?" I don't know; maybe because his family kicked things off by killing hers and as of the RW were still killing Starks. If TV Tyrion were the Tyrion of the books, I suspect more might see Sansa's POV.

[acosta]

I went back and rewatched season one with my somewhat-deaf fiance and since Amazon Video closed-captioning names the characters speaking, I noticed Marillion is the singer with Cat and Tyrion in the Vale, but he's also the singer who has his tongue removed by Ilyn Payne, so he definitely didn't stay in the Vale and he isn't a singer any more, so I do wonder how they'll deal with that.

[Colonel Green]

That role is 100% replaceable. It's not a problem.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

. I'm definitely one of those book Sansa fans who gets frustrated when she is out-of-hand dismissed as stupid or dumb by those who don't read the books and only know her based on the show.

The way I respond to those people is this:

I explain that the author's modus operandi is to take the common ideas and tropes about fantasy stories and smash them to pieces.

Sansa starts as the fair maiden who loves the stories about noble knights and heroic tales etc etc.... she is US.

She then moves on to being the 'Princess trapped in the tower by the wicked Queen' - except there are no beautiful knights in shining armour coming to save her.

She isn't weak, she is a ~13 year old girl who is powerless. Her and Arya are two sides of the same coin - they are both Starks... and remember Tyrion's line "My Lady, I believe you will outlast us all" - she is not one that should be dismissed.

----

Everyone I have told that to has immediately started to actually pay attention to her story. Two people even went and bought the books the next day.