(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[Mark Antony]

Wrt Bloodraven -

So he was imprisoned by Maekar I...but still lead the Great Council? We can be reasonably confident that the basis for his arrest then was the dislike Maekar had of Bloodraven then, right? Because if he had committed some sort of treason or something, surely he would not be accepted as leading the Great Council?

Agreed.

[Maia]

Gerold's beloved wife was Lady Rohanne Webber (most probably). I bet she was involved in the kinslayings of Tybolt and Sarelle.

I bet that both of them died natural deaths and Gerold was a perfectly devoted brother and uncle. Also, didn't "The Sworn Sword" take place in 210? And Rohanne hasn't as much as laid an eye on Gerold at that time, though she greatly enjoyed their correspondence. Also, she didn't intend to leave Coldmoat and fought long and hard to be able to retain it.

Nor was she a sorceress or a poisoner from what we have seen, though she could be brutal and ruthless. But then, she was a woman in the man's word and her asshole father's testament additionally weakened her position.

Rohanne's mysterious disappearance is clearly a Dunk and Egg story waiting to happen. I really hope that it does, as this is an extremely intriguing detail. Particularly since she and Gerold seemed to have a happy, successful marriage.

OTOH, Gerold's case shows how impossible it would be for Tyrion to ever rule the West. I mean, merely a rumor created substantial difficulties for Gerold, so a hideous dwarf who is a _confirmed_ kinslayer would have his work cut out for him.

If Tytos was so amiable and weak, how comes that his family couldn't control him? Not his wife and brother and not Tywin and his other children later? Was he a combination of weakness and stubbornness, not unlike Robert, only without the latter's martial ability?

Tytos's lover during the Stepstones war was Gerion's nursemaid, I guess? Cleos Frey wasn't yet born then, IIRC. Interesting, that neither she nor her successor the chandler's daughter had his bastards, given that we know that he was fertile and sure to be extremely generous to his natural children. Did somebody ensure that they had something in their tea on a regular basis, to prevent it?

[Grievous]

Did we learn anything about the Lannisters/Westerlands during the Dance of Dragons (or the time starting from Aegon's Conquest preceding that)?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I bet that both of them died natural deaths and Gerold was a perfectly devoted brother and uncle. Also, didn't "The Sworn Sword" take place in 210? And Rohanne hasn't as much as laid an eye on Gerold at that time, though she greatly enjoyed their correspondence. Also, she didn't intend to leave Coldmoat and fought long and hard to be able to retain it.

Nor was she sorceress or a poisoner from what we have seen, though she could be brutal and ruthless. But then, she was a woman in the man's word and her asshole father's testament additionally weakened her position.

Rohanne's mysterious disappearance is clearly a Dunk and Egg story waiting to happen. I really hope that it does, as this is an extremely intriguing detail. Particularly since she and Gerold seemed to have a happy, successful marriage.

OTOH, Gerold's case shows how impossible it would be for Tyrion to ever rule the West. I mean, merely a rumor created substantial difficulties for Gerold, so a hideous dwarf who is a _confirmed_ kinslayer would have his work cut out for him.

If Tytos was so amiable and weak, how comes that his family couldn't control him? Not his wife and brother and not Tywin and his other children later? Was he a combination of weakness and stubbornness, not unlike Robert, only without the latter's martial ability?

Tytos's lover during the Stepstones war was Gerion's nursemaid, I guess? Cleos Frey wasn't yet born then, IIRC. Interesting, that neither she nor her successor the chandler's daughter had his bastards, given that we know that he was fertile and sure to be extremely generous to his natural children. Did somebody ensure that they had something in their tea on a regular basis, to prevent it?

TSS has been estimated to have taken place in 211AC. It's possible that Rohanne had a child with Osgrey, and that the child inherited Cold Moat, and that Rohanne, after Osgrey's death, married Gerold, who was now Lord of CR. The child with Osgrey isn't even necessary. I mean, if all Rohanne wanted was power, she would get more power from being the Lady of CR than from being the lady of CM.

As to Tytos, Tytos was the ruling Lord. Jason could say no to a lord, Tywin, Genna, Kevan, Tygett and Gerion could say no, but the ultimate decision would come from Tytos, and it seems he always said yes.

I've estimated Cleos to have been born in or between 259AC and 274AC, which would make it possible for the wetnurse to have been his during the Stepstones.

Gerion might have been too old already, or there is supposed to be a 20 year gap between Tywin and his youngest brother...

[HexMachina]

Did we learn anything about the Lannisters/Westerlands during the Dance of Dragons (or the time starting from Aegon's Conquest preceding that)?

Seems Dagon Greyjoy raided them, presumably for Rhaenyra's Blacks. Tyland Lannister, the Master of Ships for Viserys and Master of Coin for Aegon II, was tortured by Rhaenyra's side to reveal where the treasury had been hidden, but was kept alive. It seems he served as Hand of the King to Aegon III and was a strong hand, but died soon after the Dance in 133AC.

Lady Lannister, the wife of Tyland's brother, apparently loaned gold to help with the repairing after the Dance.

This is all from.memory of reading the summary btw, so trust what others say over me :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Seems Dagon Greyjoy raided them, presumably for Rhaenyra's Blacks. Tyland Lannister, the Master of Ships for Viserys and Master of Coin for Aegon II, was tortured by Rhaenyra's side to reveal where the treasury had been hidden, but was kept alive. It seems he served as Hand of the King to Aegon III and was a strong hand, but died soon after the Dance in 133AC.

Lady Lannister, the wife of Tyland's brother, apparently loaned gold to help with the repairing after the Dance.

This is all from.memory of reading the summary btw, so trust what others say over me :)

I remember reading this in summaries too. Tyland was gelded, mutilated and blinded, IIRC, but survived the Dance, becoming Aegon III´s Hand (someone said something about Tyland having gone to Essos to fight people to fight for Aegon II, but I can't remember if that was actually from the reading itself).

Lord Jason died fighting the Ironborn, IIRC

[Ran]

Dalton Greyjoy, not Dagon.

[Lord Varys]

On the children of Ellyn Tarbeck:

She apparently named all her children after women and men Gerold lost/supposedly killed. Tybolt's daughter Sarelle (?), Rohanne, Tion etc.

As to Rohanne Reyne being the mother of the last Lord Reyne, I'd not be surprised if Ellyn married Rohanne to one of the Waldarran Tarbeck's (sp.?) son from a previous marriage. Tarbeck apparently was already an aged (and impoverished) man when Ellyn was married to him, and he had children from previous marriages...

On Tytos:

He seemed to be the sort of guy who gave in to outsiders, i.d. a father who always told his children that they have to be nice to other people, regardless what they did to you/the family. In that regard, he obviously was able to get his way. Genna was married to Emmon Frey because he wanted that to happen.

And I do believe Tywin hit his father in private. Tywin was still very young back then, and thus not as controlled as he later was/became, and there must have been a severe falling out for Tytos to send his son away. Tywin spoke out about the matter openly when it was announced, and later on must have really shown his anger when he was alone with his father.

On Tybolt's death:

I'd not be surprised if he suffered a similar fate as Beron Stark. That is, he suffered a wound during the fights against the Ironborn, and eventually died, giving birth to the rumors that his brother poisoned him. But I'd not be surprised if Gerold had this darker side from the rumors. That would add a lot more flavor to the whole thing.

Gerold's twins were not married in the early 230s. Tybald/Tybolt died in 232, and Tion during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion four years later, indicating that Gerold's twins were indeed his sons by Rohanne, if we assume that they married, say, around 215 or so.

Ser Tyland was supposed to hire sellswords to fight against the Blacks after Aegon II's restoration, yes. He was still serving as Master of Coin. I guess it may turn out that Larys Strong became Aegon's Hand after he returned to KL.

Ran,

on that Aerys thing: Was only the fact that he fought on the Stepstones wrong, or wasn't he not even there? And he did knight Tywin, or didn't he?

[Mithras]

The poison used on Pate and the poison Arya used in her first assignment kill exactly the same as Tytos died. Just saying.

Gerold died from bad bladder. Widow's Blood kills exactly the same. Ellyn Reyne was a widow obsessed with Gerold. Just saying.

Tommen seems dangerously similar to Tytos and Tyene/Nym seem dangerously poisonous. Just saying.

[HexMachina]

We don't see how the poison Arya uses works. Pate I would.need to reread.

Doesnt Widow's Blood work on the bowels, not the bladder?

[Hardstone]

Gerold helped sway the Great Council to choose Egg. Could this have been Rohanne's influence?

[The Sleeper]

It causes heart failure. However, Tytos was a fat old man climbing stairs so a heart attack isn't exactly out of the ordinary.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Where is it stated Pate died from a hearth attack?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Where is it stated Pate died from a hearth attack?

[Mithras]

Pate grabbed it from his hand. The gold felt warm against his palm. He brought it to his mouth and bit down on it the way he’d seen men do. If truth be told, he wasn’t sure what gold should taste like, but he did not want to look a fool.

He was halfway down the alley when the cobblestones began to move beneath his feet. The stones are slick and wet, he thought, but that was not it. He could feel his heart hammering in his chest. “What’s happening?” he said. His legs had turned to water. “I don’t understand.”

“And never will,” a voice said sadly.

The cobblestones rushed up to kiss him. Pate tried to cry for help, but his voice was failing too.

The kindly man understood. “And with that coin and the others in his purse, he paid a certain man. Soon after that man’s heart gave out. Is that the way of it? Very sad.”

I don’t know how a heart failure is experienced but I assume that Jaqen used a poisoned gold coin which is exactly what Arya used and the KM said it would cause heart attack.

About Rohanne’s influence in Egg’s crowning. She died in 230, before Egg was crowned. However, Gerold might still vouch for him because Dunk&Egg had a good history with his late wife and this might mean good fortune (seats, assignments etc.) for his children from her. Since his son squired for Egg and later Tywin was a cupbearer of Egg, he got what he wanted by getting close to the royal family. But from the perspective of 300 AC, he should have well f*ing stayed away of the royal family.

[Lord Varys]

Other things that are interesting:

Prince Aegon - the eldest son of Aenys I, and his rightful heir - sought refuge at Casterly Rock with his sister-wife Rhaena (the rider of Dreamfyre). Lord Lyman Lannister took them and guest right was envoked, but he did not declare for Aegon. Prince Aegon and his dragon Quicksilver - formerly Aenys' dragon - perished in a battle at the God's Eye.

Lord Lyman later declared for Jaehaerys, though, indicating that Maegor was cast down in a war involving his own family.

[Maia]

As to Rohanne Reyne being the mother of the last Lord Reyne, I'd not be surprised if Ellyn married Rohanne to one of the Waldarran Tarbeck's (sp.?) son from a previous marriage.

Tarbecks weren't Targaryens and didn't practice marriages between half-siblings ;). Rohanne was a daughter of Waldarren Tarbeck too. But maybe she married his heirs' son? The Stark tree showed us that marriages between uncles and nieces are somewhat acceptable in the Westerosi culture, at least if they are only half-uncles and nieces by blood.

And Ellyn, of course, would have wanted a descendant of hers to be Lord Tarbeck. she didn't raise tarbecks from the mud for her progeny to be merely a powerless junior branch. Yes, this fits very well.

He seemed to be the sort of guy who gave in to outsiders

But not to his own family, it seems, or they would have been able to control and dominate him, restrict access to him, etc. Didn't the chandler's daughter actually accomplish something like that later, in fact? People could only reach Tytos through her. Too bad that his wife and brother were unable to handle him properly.

Oh, and I agree that Tywin likely hit Tytos. His later self-control wasn't an inborn quality, but something that he painstakingly built up. I am sure.

But was Tywin sent to court because of it, or did Aegon take pity on the West and decided to help with the upbringing of the next heir? After all, Tywin was of an age to be fostered/squired anyway.

On Tybolt's death:

I'd not be surprised if he suffered a similar fate as Beron Stark. That is, he suffered a wound during the fights against the Ironborn, and eventually died, giving birth to the rumors that his brother poisoned him.

There might have been insinuations of his distraught widow (if she was still alive) or her disappointed House if she was not, too. Oh, and Ellyn Tarbeck must have resurrected and fanned the rumors for all she was worth, after getting ejected from CR.

But I'd not be surprised if Gerold had this darker side from the rumors. That would add a lot more flavor to the whole thing.

I would like some variety in my Lannisters, please. Not all of them have to be _that_ dark, they are not supposed to be an intrinsically evil family, I hope.

And also, we have seen with Tyrion and Rohanne Webber that it is really easy to get slandered for and accused of things that you are completely innocent of in Westeros.

Not that they don't/didn't have their dark sides, but Tyrion didn't kill Joff and Rohanne didn't poison her husbands and children, on the contrary, she was desperate for them to live and their deaths put her in serious jeopardy.

If people would accuse Rohanne of something that went completely against her interests, how much more readily would they accuse Gerold, who actually gained from the death of his kin?

Gerold's twins were not married in the early 230s. Tybald/Tybolt died in 232, and Tion during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion four years later, indicating that Gerold's twins were indeed his sons by Rohanne, if we assume that they married, say, around 215 or so.

True. Not only wasn't Tybald yet married, he wasn't even a knight when he received his mortal wound, which, for somebody of his blood, would have meant that he was 18 or younger. Yep, they have to be Rohanne's. What irony, after all her misfortunes with 4 previous husbands...

on that Aerys thing: Was only the fact that he fought on the Stepstones wrong, or wasn't he not even there? And he did knight Tywin, or didn't he?

It seems odd for Tywin to squire for somebody his own age and who didn't even fight, doesn't it? Or for Aerys to knight him, if he wasn't a knight himself. And if Aerys didn't fight, but was at the theater of war, why wasn't he derided for it?

Oh, and another thing - during the Dance, when Greyjoys attacked the West under a very capable commander, they failed to take Casterly Rock! I have always known that Theon was full of shit and that Balon had solid reasons to doubt his plan, heh.

[The hairy bear]

Gerold helped sway the Great Council to choose Egg. Could this have been Rohanne's influence?

It may be, but not in a straightforward way. According to the notes, lady Rohanne disappeared in 230 AC, and the Great Council is in 233 AC.

My twisted mind is imaining a D&E novella where, hidden in KL as Duncan's lover, Rohanne teaches Egg how to manipulate Gerold into voting for him.

[HexMachina]

Other things that are interesting:

Prince Aegon - the eldest son of Aenys I, and his rightful heir - sought refuge at Casterly Rock with his sister-wife Rhaena (the rider of Dreamfyre). Lord Lyman Lannister took them and guest right was envoked, but he did not declare for Aegon. Prince Aegon and his dragon Quicksilver - formerly Aenys' dragon - perished in a battle at the God's Eye.

Lord Lyman later declared for Jaehaerys, though, indicating that Maegor was cast down in a war involving his own family.

Sorry, have to bring this up;

This to me calls into question the idea of the "Dance 2.0" that many speculste based on GRRMs comment. Some believed that we have too little time left in he novels the fit it in, and when this is considered, we've already had one "Dance of Dragons" before the main one...just throwing that out there...

[Lady Baela Targaryen]

Sorry, have to bring this up;

This to me calls into question the idea of the "Dance 2.0" that many speculste based on GRRMs comment. Some believed that we have too little time left in he novels the fit it in, and when this is considered, we've already had one "Dance of Dragons" before the main one...just throwing that out there...

For God's sake. There is a prophecy about the next Dance of Dragons in one of TWOW chapters.