BearQueen87 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I'm just going to sit here and be seriously impressed by everything J. Stargaryen wrote. Nicely done. I do hope that the red rose for Sansa means that she ends up on the good side, and not dying like Lyanna (which was what I first thought many a year ago) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I don't think Robert went to look for TKOLT because Ned makes a comment about he didn't know Lyanna's wildness. Robert seemed more interested in women who were like "Your the Lord of Storm's End. Anything for you m'lord." or "Your the King? And you want to sleep with me? I would be so honored." Do you see Lyanna acting like this because I don't.IIRC, Meera's story tells how Robert and several others swore to unmask the mystery knight, suggesting that Robert did take part in the search. However, that he knew barely anything to nothing about Lyanna's personality suggests strongly that he wasn't the one to secretly find her, which is strengthened by the fact that, IIRC, it was Rhaegar who found the mystery knights shield in a tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 snip Excellent work! I think some (not all) elements might tie well with your analysis here....There a series of foreshadowing for a turn from red to grey to black (Targ to Stark to NW brother) in Jon and Dany chapters; and from black to grey to red in Sansa's chapter.... She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two. Sansa IV, Storm for the whole conversation: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104421-moments-of-foreshadowing-8-tpatq-spoilers/page-20 post 388; 395; 397.... This was my interpretation at the time: Gold and crimson could stand for the Lannister colors IMO.....though I wouldn't know what to make of the thousand shades of rose; and the black before that... It's possible it foreshadows something about Sansa herself, the Lannister bride...But when put together with Jon's from red to grey to black - as you have pointed out, we have >> from red to grey to black, and from black to grey to red. Basically, it'd be a hint at a (the) cyclical nature of Jon's arc: he goes from Targaryen, to Stark, to NW brother, to Stark again >> to a thousand shades of rose (? ) >> to Targaryen again. shades of rose and gold and crimson, taken together is a difficult one... shades of rose, if it's not about a Lyanna connection (shades = shadows of the past, rose = the blackened petals for ex.) only brings two houses to mind: the Tyrells (rose sigil) and the Boltons (pink sigil). The Tyrell connection seems stronger because of the juxtaposition of rose and gold, and the Tyrell rose is gold...could the Tyrells be involved in the turn from "grey" to "crimson" (from Stark to Targaryen)? I think, the rest of the quote might indicate something in that line of thought: ...the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle when there had been two... this could symbolizes the merging of two houses into one (the guess here would be Stark/Targ.) or...and this is the explanation I'd prefer: it foreshadows the unification of the kingdom (two factions thereof); the South (the Tyrells) and North (the Starks) (where the wind = the other warring factions) Am I reading too much into that? I'm kind of taken with the idea that Magaery will get her crown (and marry Jon for politics, not love.) so I might be slightly biased in my interpretation ;) ETA: I also suspect that if there is to be a Stark (Jon)/Tyrell (Margaery) marriage/alliance, that Sansa would be the one responsible for it (since she knows much about the Tyrells, and is learning to play the game) so the imagery appearing in her Pov fits rather nicely with that theory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 The fact that Visenya seems to have supported Maegor and his usurping, and the fact that Visenya's kid and Rhaenys' kids did not get along at all (said by GRRM or Ran, IIRC), I doubt Visenya was fully behind it.. It was said that Visenya had a dark, unforgiving side, and she had no problem screwing over her sister's grandchildren to crown her son king. Visenya knew Aegon was obligated to marry her, but he didn't have to marry Rhaenys. Aegon also spent more time with Rhaenys, and gave her five children compared to Visenya's one child, Maegor. I think she didn't forgive Rhaenys for "stealing" Aegon, or what should have been her line's birthright as kings. Sorry for failing to respond earlier, I spent some time wondering how far the parallels might go, and how exactly. If we take a look at the characteristics of Visenya and Rhaenys, Elia and Lyanna seem rather like reversal - Lyanna the strong warrior type and Elia the frailer beauty. On the other hand, Elia was a sister to Oberyn, who definitely had a dark and unforgiving side, and to Doran, who seems sweet and harmless enough. We definitely need to learn more about Elia and her role in the whole mess. Another thing to consider: perhaps Visenya (and Elia) was originally contenct with the arrangement but became bitter only after she saw that Aegon was favouriting Rhaenys. Perhaps Elia played along in the beginning but after the months of everyone rubbing the scandal in her face (and I don't doubt there were quite a few to insinuate that it was all her fault and that she wasn't good enough for Rhaegar), she reconsidered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Sorry for failing to respond earlier, I spent some time wondering how far the parallels might go, and how exactly. If we take a look at the characteristics of Visenya and Rhaenys, Elia and Lyanna seem rather like reversal - Lyanna the strong warrior type and Elia the frailer beauty. On the other hand, Elia was a sister to Oberyn, who definitely had a dark and unforgiving side, and to Doran, who seems sweet and harmless enough. We definitely need to learn more about Elia and her role in the whole mess. Another thing to consider: perhaps Visenya (and Elia) was originally contenct with the arrangement but became bitter only after she saw that Aegon was favouriting Rhaenys. Perhaps Elia played along in the beginning but after the months of everyone rubbing the scandal in her face (and I don't doubt there were quite a few to insinuate that it was all her fault and that she wasn't good enough for Rhaegar), she reconsidered.I think that is a realistic and balanced summary.In reality, coming from a culture where the women are brought up with a sense of their own individual worth, what they are willing to put up with, and how that manifests itself in terms of also being "open" hinge on whether Elia loved Rhaegar, or whether they had a pragmatic fondness for one another that included valuing each other's happiness, respect and admiration. I think it is a mistake to confuse a society where mutually accepted consent between the rare couples who can pull that type of "openess" off as one type of love, and a society that is simply not hypocritical when it comes to the reality of political alliances, accepting that love might be found elsewhere, but where love is present, they'll fight to keep it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Did Lyanna have the agency to elope with Rhaegar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Did Lyanna have the agency to elope with Rhaegar? Given the time period we are dealing with, no. Not without her fathers blessing. A woman of that time was an extention of her House's honor and alliance with other powerful families, (though to be totally fair, boys/men had very little say either until they became lords in their own right). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warg of Winterfell Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I know the conventional wisdom is that Rhaegar took Lyanna by force...but as the story progresses we get a view of him that makes that seem out of character. He's portrayed a sweet, poetic romantic. Is it crazy to believe that she went willingly...having fallen in love with him, that by the time Ned found out the war had already progessed to the point that Robert had slain Rhaegar at the Ruby Forge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I know the conventional wisdom is that Rhaegar took Lyanna by force...but as the story progresses we get a view of him that makes that seem out of character. He's portrayed a sweet, poetic romantic. Is it crazy to believe that she went willingly...having fallen in love with him, that by the time Ned found out the war had already progessed to the point that Robert had slain Rhaegar at the Ruby Forge? Not at all crazy. In fact, I think there are quite a few people here (myself included) who think that the "kidnap and rape of Lyanna" is not what happened and that we'll get that story eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warg of Winterfell Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Did Lyanna have the agency to elope with Rhaegar? This, I don't think it's totally out of the question that she was a willing participant...I've yet to come to the parts where her "abduction" is described in greater detail... Rape just seems so out of character from what we learn about Rhaegar later on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The other prince Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 This, I don't think it's totally out of the question that she was a willing participant...I've yet to come to the parts where her "abduction" is described in greater detail... Rape just seems so out of character from what we learn about Rhaegar later on.... Not sure if this has been discussed but did anyone other then Robert ever say that Lyanna was raped? To my knowledge he is the only one to make this assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Not sure if this has been discussed but did anyone other then Robert ever say that Lyanna was raped? To my knowledge he is the only one to make this assumption. I can't recall if anyone else calls it rape--at least anyone who would have been in the know and not hearing the story after the fact. Of course, it's interesting that the one person who doesn't call it rape and never responds with anti-Rhaegar sentitments when Robert brings it up..is Ned. Ned's veiw of Rhaegar is different than Robert's. I think that speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Judging from what Barristan has to say it appears that he doesn't believe that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna either. “Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 “Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.” Thanks, Obama Robert :dunce: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Judging from what Barristan has to say it appears that he doesn't believe that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna either. “Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.” I think Jorah has different ideas about Rhaegar as well. When Dany tells Jorah and the others to stop the rape of the Lamb Men's woman, he says "You're your brother in truth" "Viserys?" "No. Rhaegar." As if Jorah knows/suspects that Rhaegar wouldn't tolerate rape or has stomach turned by it like Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I can't recall if anyone else calls it rape--at least anyone who would have been in the know and not hearing the story after the fact. Of course, it's interesting that the one person who doesn't call it rape and never responds with anti-Rhaegar sentitments when Robert brings it up..is Ned. Ned's veiw of Rhaegar is different than Robert's. I think that speaks volumes. Ned is a good prism for other characters that are seen in the books. We have been inside his head and know what he considered honorable and what he himself would do or not do. How he looks upon Rhaegar and the three King's guard at the Tower of Joy fills in some of the blanks for what the motivations were for these characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I think Jorah has different ideas about Rhaegar as well. When Dany tells Jorah and the others to stop the rape of the Lamb Men's woman, he says As if Jorah knows/suspects that Rhaegar wouldn't tolerate rape or has stomach turned by it like Dany. And would not frequent brothels, risking in fathering bastards, according to Ned. Rhaegar married Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Nicely done. One way to read Sansa's red rose is that she ends up on the eventual winning side. Not necessarily that she herself wins, but it's an early allusion to victory where she's concerned (the red rose defeated the white). And Jon, as a Targaryen, would technically fall on the Lancaster end of things (the Yorks are the Baratheons). Thanks. I agree about Sansa. I was just using Sansa wins! as an example since it's an idea many are familiar with. I'm less inclined to draw conclusions from foreshadowing than I used to be, since there are often multiple interpretations that work. For example, another argument I've made in the past is exactly what you state in your last two sentences. That Sansa receiving the red rose means that the Starks will win. Including Jon, even though he's technically a Targaryen. I'm just going to sit here and be seriously impressed by everything J. Stargaryen wrote. Nicely done. I do hope that the red rose for Sansa means that she ends up on the good side, and not dying like Lyanna (which was what I first thought many a year ago) Thanks. Wrt to the bold, the red/blue dichotomy can be fairly interpreted to represent life and death. Excellent work! I think some (not all) elements might tie well with your analysis here....There a series of foreshadowing for a turn from red to grey to black (Targ to Stark to NW brother) in Jon and Dany chapters; and from black to grey to red in Sansa's chapter.... Sansa IV, Storm for the whole conversation: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104421-moments-of-foreshadowing-8-tpatq-spoilers/page-20 post 388; 395; 397.... This was my interpretation at the time: I recall seeing this before because I used to make the case that Jon and Margaery could end up marrying. The idea was partially based off of another favorite of mine, that Jon will end up with a blue rose sigil. Then, if GRRM means to match this up with the WotR at the end -- it's by no means certain that he does -- it would make sense for Jon's blue rose to unite with the Tyrell golden rose to form a new dynasty. Though it might seem a bit far fetched to some, it would be a sensible political alliance. The KitN marrying a southern queen to reunite the 7K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Not sure if this has been discussed but did anyone other then Robert ever say that Lyanna was raped? To my knowledge he is the only one to make this assumption. Bran also says it when he's visiting the crypts with Osha and Maester Luwin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Bran also says it when he's visiting the crypts with Osha and Maester Luwin. I tend to take Bran's version with a grain of salt, because Bran's version is probably just a rehash of Robert's version (victors write the history, etc.). But among the adults who were actually there and personally knew Rhaegar, none of them, including Ned, think of him as a rapist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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