Confessions from 2014

[Northernmonkey]

Whatever the reasons they have for giving her the WoS as a punishment, for me, as a reader, she's being punished for

- Killing Robert's bastards

- Killing Robert

- Cuckolding Robert

- Killing Melara

- Arresting Ned

- Mistreating Sansa

- Killing the Hight Septon

- Mistreating and humiliating Tyrion

- Unfairly blaming and slut-shaming Margaery

- Torturing the Blue Bard

- Sending Falyse to Qyburn

That's basically spot on. I still don't understand why people find the WOS show disturbing - I really enjoyed reading about Cersei getting her come-uppance. I still think it was a horrible thing for the High Septon to do, but because it was Cersei I couldn't care less.

It's like if someone violently raped Hitler. The punishment wouldn't fit the crime, and it would be a horrible thing for the rapist to do, but because it's Hitler and he deserves it I couldn't care less. (I realise this is a slightly strange analogy but I think it makes a good point).

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Ah, the Walk of Shame. I am so torn about that part of the book. I mean, I want Cersei to get what is coming to her for all the horrible things she's done (and a lot is coming her way, hopefully), and I liked the idea of Cersei getting punished at least in some way, but then I started pitying her when she couldn't handle it anymore, and was seeing people she'd hurt in the crowds. So, on the one hand, I was cheering because she got some punishment, but on the other hand, I just couldn't stop thinking "This is wrong, this is so wrong, this is so wrong at so many many levels, shitshitshit." I am still torn. Had it been Margaery, Cersei would be laughing all the way, just like someone said here before. But still, I pitied her.

Not to say that it means much, for I am a genuinely overemotional little girl.

[Winter's Knight]

Ah, the Walk of Shame. I am so torn about that part of the book. I mean, I want Cersei to get what is coming to her for all the horrible things she's done (and a lot is coming her way, hopefully), and I liked the idea of Cersei getting punished at least in some way, but then I started pitying her when she couldn't handle it anymore, and was seeing people she'd hurt in the crowds. So, on the one hand, I was cheering because she got some punishment, but on the other hand, I just couldn't stop thinking "This is wrong, this is so wrong, this is so wrong at so many many levels, shitshitshit." I am still torn. Had it been Margaery, Cersei would be laughing all the way, just like someone said here before. But still, I pitied her.

Not to say that it means much, for I am a genuinely overemotional little girl.

See, I think it's like,I know that if Vargo Hoat had cut off Robbs sword hand, Jaime would be thrilled but it doesn't mean I am not upset that Jaime had to endure that.

[bent branch]

The problem, at least to me, with the whole 21st century ideals and stuff isn't about us but about the character.

For instance, let's take Robert, who I completely dislike.

He's accused of "raping" Cersei, and it's ok for us to not like what he did. But for Robert he's not doing wrong, he's not aware of a concept called "marital rape" because for him, being both a husband and a King, he's right about asking sex to his wife whenever he wants and it's her duty to please him and give him heirs. I can't say Robert is a bad person for doing THAT because in his culture, he's not wrong about having marital rights.

But, in his culture and set of morals, he's wrong about whoring. Yes, he's not the only one, but fathering bastards and cheating on your wife, specially being the King, is dishonouring and he knows and he doesn't care. There, he's wrong (although I wouldn't say "bad person" either).

:agree: It is a common problem in the forums. Despite the story being written from various POVs, posters tend to insert knowledge they have but the characters don't. This makes some of the forums more popular theories almost certainly wrong. A character can't act on information they don't have.

As to the WOS, the reason Cersei wanted to get to Tommen so badly was because, as king, he could just declare her innocent. Also, the WOS shouldn't be looked at as Cersei's punishment. Instead, think of it as bail. The HS had a weak case against Marge, so he let her go with only a third party custodian. However, since the case against Cersei was so strong he was demanding the equivalent of a million $ bond.

As to my pet peeves:

"It's a lie!" --It makes me a bit crazy when people dismiss information they don't like as a lie. If you want to dismiss something as a lie, you should give a good argument as to why it's a lie. The argument "Varys is a lying liar who lies" has been used to remove all information that we have learned about Varys in order to make him a blank slate that can be blamed for everything that isn't blamed on LF.

Ignoring human life spans. -- This is where posters want to blame events on a person who was probably not old enough at the time to have been responsible.

Claims of authority. -- Just because someone has a high post count doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. Unless they are a mod, it only means they are very opinionated or have been posting for a very long time.

Using quotes out of context. -- "Red or black a dragon is a dragon." This quote was used to explain that the GC no longer cared about the Blackfyre cause and just wanted a dragon to take them home. It has somehow come to mean that Blackfyres and Targaryens are the same thing.

Claims of authority to quotes used out of context. -- This is where a quote is separated from the person who said it and then quoted as being true. My example here is that the Tyrells wanted Sansa for her claim. Who is our source for this information in text? Dontos Hollard, the winesack with legs.

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

I think Sansa is one of the worst chracters in the series. Hold on, I strictly mean as a fictional person.

Her characterization is kinda fine (it's not hard to write about a spoiled brat that will become a pretentious prick later on, but Martin manages to make me sympathize with characters like Aeron and Victarion, so even Sansa is well "written" to my eyes).

Here's a list of things for which I don't like her:

-She could've kept her mouth shut, but told Cersei what Ned was up to anyway, and indirectly helped the Lannisters imprisoning him.

-Everything she does after Ned's death, is cry. She never tries to escape, and never would've tried if not for Dontos and LF. "Meanwhile, Arya..."

-She gets saved by everyone: Sandor, Dontos, Lothor Brune, Petyr. What is she, the Mary Jane of this universe?

-Even when she's saved by Petyr first thing she does is bitching about the Fingers Island. I mean, really?REALLY? For all you know, the guy just saved your skin and you whine about where he brought you to hide? "Spoiled" is an euphemism.

I know people are waiting for the time when "the puppet will become the puppeteer", "the learner will become the master" and so on...But if that were to happen, it would only piss me off even more.

She has no right to become a "gamer" in the game of thrones. She did nothing to earn it.

[Fat Mac]

I know people are waiting for the time when "the puppet will become the puppeteer", "the learner will become the master" and so on...But if that were to happen, it would only piss me off even more.

She has no right to become a "gamer" in the game of thrones. She did nothing to earn it.

She should obviously just sleep her way to the top like Littlefinger did.

[Mladen]

He's accused of "raping" Cersei, and it's ok for us to not like what he did. But for Robert he's not doing wrong, he's not aware of a concept called "marital rape" because for him, being both a husband and a King, he's right about asking sex to his wife whenever he wants and it's her duty to please him and give him heirs. I can't say Robert is a bad person for doing THAT because in his culture, he's not wrong about having marital rights.

He did rape Cersei, unless there is another word for non-consensual intercourse. Think of Sansa and Tyrion for second. So, should we blame Sansa for not spreading her legs to Tyrion? Why Tyrion knows it is bad to force yourself on the bride? So, did Tyrion do something commendable or not? Because following that logic, he did something bad.

Simply put, this is not medieval ages. The rules that apply to the era we know doesn't necessarily apply to the world of Westeros. Should we say that slavery is good because someone used to practice it? Martin's audience doesn't live in medieval ages, he doesn't come from medieval ages. He is contemporary author and many of the ideas in those novel are actually 21st century ideas. Just because there is no legal concept of "marital rape", that doesn't make it right in our eyes or even Westerosi eyes, as plainly seen in Tyrion/Sansa example. Just because there is no concept of "child abuse", that doesn't mean that beating and tormenting children is OK. If Martin wanted his audience to think solely in medieval terms, than he should have written the books, invent time machine and send it to to medieval Europe. Alas he wrote it for 21st century audience.

[sj4iy]

Some more pet peeves:

1. The terms "butchering" and "whitewashing" - every time I see these words used, I stop reading because I know that this isn't going to be a rational analysis.

2. People who act as if they know what the author or writers REALLY think about a character, the story or the show. Unless it is a direct quote from someone, this is nothing but imposing one's own feelings about something on the 'authorities' to make it seem more official.

[thewindofthenorth]

You mean KG champion that is already named KG? I mean, your logic is simply flawed here. The walk wasn't essentially about new KG champion because:

1. Ser Rober Strong was appointed KG knight before WOS

2. Cersei could have called him a champion from her cell.

So, no, for 5th time, and now it's becoming a bit annoying having to explain that someone was already made KG knight

IT DOES, ACTUALLY. He is now KG and she is free to call him ti serve her.

You definitely need to reread ADWD. I am telling you for the 10th time, Tommen, under Kevan and Qyburn already named Ser Robert as KG knight. It is even written in Cersei's WOS chapter.

Because she had no information from Qyburn that Ser Robert joined the KG. Once, she would have obtained that information, there was nothing to stop her from calling him as the champion, which was her right, as the Queen, and which, Qyburn, unmistakably says is Ser Robert's purpose. So, no. Ser Robert was appointed Kingsguard BEFORE the WOS as well it is blatant obvious that Cersei could have demanded trial by combat at any given moment.

What reason am I ignoring?

1. The one where you said that Cersei couldn't have demanded trial by combat from her prison, when Kevan said she can?

Or...

2. The one where you said that Cersei needed to appoint Ser Robert as a KIngsguard knight, when in fact he was named KG knight during her time in prison.

Tell me which contriving thought am I rightfully ignoring.

She had not information that he was named KG knight. That doesn't mean that he wasn't named KG knight...

I am so tired arguing this... Your logic, IMO, is simply flawed and there is not textual corroboration for your claims. Since this has become pointless, I am ending this.

The problem is that WOS about Cersei having sex with someone while being a widow. I know all Cersei's numerous crimes and I wish she pays for them. But for having sex with someone? That was misogynist crap I generally don't support. And the way it's written in the books, I honestly don't know how anyone can support it.

So we should all be misogynists to see the entire story? I suppose Ser Gregor was saving the realm according to this logic when he raped Elia. Such noble acts should be awarded, not criticized... Dear lord... :stunned: :stunned: :stunned:

This is not about exonerating Cersei from numerous crimes. She is one of the worst persons in ASOIAF universe, and she deserves to be punished for everything she did. But please, don't tell me that we have to enjoy when a woman is being mind raped because she had sex. The entire WOS, and the justification behind it is simply nonsensical. And the worst part was that her worst crimes, no ALL her ACTUAL crimes are unpunished. I find no satisfaction in seeing one woman being tormented for having intercourse with someone. No matter who that woman is.

Cersei made the arrangements for Robert Strong at the very end of her first ADWD chapter. But if she could have called for a trial by combat from Robert strong at any point, then why didn't she?

If she did, she'd have been set free regardless.

Unless Cersei is just stupid. What you're saying makes no logical sense on Cersei's part.

1. Cersei just stays in prison and demands trial by combat with Qyburns champion and wins and gains her freedom. No walk of shame.

2. Cersei does the WOS and then demands trial by combat in the red keep.

Why does she option 2 instead of option 1.

It makes no sense.

What reason am I ignoring?

1. The one where you said that Cersei couldn't have demanded trial by combat from her prison, when Kevan said she can?

Or...

2. The one where you said that Cersei needed to appoint Ser Robert as a KIngsguard knight, when in fact he was named KG knight during her time in prison.

Tell me which contriving thought am I rightfully ignoring.

You're ignoring the fact that Cersei was only doomed if she stayed in prison because she'd have to go through a regular trial.

And point no.1 proves again, that you are misinterpreting my arguments, so you should probably stop with the condescension.

Point no. 2 is blatantly unknown btw.

Cersei asked Kevan to make the arrangements during prison. We don't know when Ser Robert was given his white cloak. It could have been during the WOS for all we know. So yeah, you're wrong about that.

As to the WOS, the reason Cersei wanted to get to Tommen so badly was because, as king, he could just declare her innocent. Also, the WOS shouldn't be looked at as Cersei's punishment. Instead, think of it as bail. The HS had a weak case against Marge, so he let her go with only a third party custodian. However, since the case against Cersei was so strong he was demanding the equivalent of a million $ bond.

Tommen and the Faith are 2 different powers so I disagree. But its blatant on a read through that Tommen is more of a means to an end, rather than Cersei just wanting to see him.

At least, its my interpreation that Cersei did the WOS for her champion.

[thewindofthenorth]

edit out

[Mladen]

Cersei made the arrangements for Robert Strong at the very end of her first ADWD chapter. But if she could have called for a trial by combat from Robert strong at any point, then why didn't she?

Ok, let we imagine this scenario. Cersei stays in the custody until the trial. The trial begins. What exactly stops Cersei from demanding trial by combat? It is legitimate way of proving the innocence according to Westerosi' law and she is more than entitled to that. Kevan mentions that if she is to choose trial by combat, then her champion should be a member of the Kingsguard. During her period in custody, just like it happens in the books, Kevan and Qyburn name Ser Robert knight of Kingsguard. She calls him as her champion. End of deal...

As you see, neither her right to choose trial by combat nor Robert's appointment in KG, not even him being her champion depends on Cersei being free. Everything in that regard she could have done from custody. Thus, her desire to be free is not in any way connected with Ser Robert, but her desire to see her child and to feel safe and not in custody.

If she did, she'd have been set free regardless.

No, she wouldn't. As we know, Cersei's trial is for many different transgressions. The only thing she confessed, and the thing she atones for is her having sex as a widow. The HS wouldn't let her go without atonement for the sin she confessed, and she would wait in custody for the trial that accuses her of other crimes such as killing Robert, previous HS, incest. Atonement was for one crime, trial is for several others.

Unless Cersei is just stupid. What you're saying makes no logical sense on Cersei's part.

1. Cersei just stays in prison and demands trial by combat with Qyburns champion and wins and gains her freedom. No walk of shame.

2. Cersei does the WOS and then demands trial by combat in the red keep

Cersei is stupid... That is well established fact. But, she is also a mother. She wanted to be with her son in the palace, to feel safe, because she wasn't safe in the custody, and she knew it. She is basically emotionally blackmailed with her own son. That is why she accepts WoS. Because she wanted to be near Tommen.

You're ignoring the fact that Cersei was only doomed if she stayed in prison because she'd have to go through a regular trial.

That's not true. Even if she stayed there, she could have invoked her right on trial by combat. Kevan explicitly says so. Trial by combat is always an option, regardless of whether Cersei is in custody or being let free in Red Keep. Like for any accused in Westeros, trial by combat is always an option. The option that can be demanded at any point, as we have seen in both Tyrion's cases. Tyrion demands trial by combats even when he is in the custody.

[thewindofthenorth]

Yeah.

You are still not getting the point.

Not saying trial by combat wasn't an option. But for Cersei its a bit more difficult because she needs to be defended by a knight of a kingsguard.

The walk was to get the champion.

Oh and by the way,

It had nothing to do with safety.

Its not like they were going to poison or kill Cersei unless she lost her trial.

By safety are you referring to you r argument in post 266?

Cersei was doomed because she was being tried for her crimes, not because the High Sparrow would have her assassainted or something.

And she'd be released regardless if she just did a trial by combat without a walk of shame.

“These are common sins,” he said. “The wickedness of widows is well-known, and all women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men. There is no treason here, so long as you did not stray from your marriage bed whilst His Grace King Robert was still alive.” “Never,” she whispered, shivering. “Never,I swear it.” He paid that no mind. “There are other charges laid against Your Grace, crimes far more grievous than simple fornications. You admit Ser Osney Kettleblack was your lover, and Ser Osney insists that he smothered my predecessor at your behest. He further insists that he bore false witness against Queen Margaery and her cousins, telling tales of fornications, adultery, and high treason, again at your behest.”

[Hangover of the Morning]

Sometime in the show forum I see people going berserk because they learned (or think) that character XX will be cut from the show and I have absolutely no idea who character XX is.

[Jasta11]

So we should all be misogynists to see the entire story? I suppose Ser Gregor was saving the realm according to this logic when he raped Elia. Such noble acts should be awarded, not criticized... Dear lord... :stunned: :stunned: :stunned:

This is not about exonerating Cersei from numerous crimes. She is one of the worst persons in ASOIAF universe, and she deserves to be punished for everything she did. But please, don't tell me that we have to enjoy when a woman is being mind raped because she had sex. The entire WOS, and the justification behind it is simply nonsensical. And the worst part was that her worst crimes, no ALL her ACTUAL crimes are unpunished. I find no satisfaction in seeing one woman being tormented for having intercourse with someone. No matter who that woman is.

Why the hell are you putting words in my mouth? Did I say I enjoyed it? That I cheered and bumped my fist at my brodah, the religious fanatic? I specifically said I thought the punishment was horribly sexist and in no way justified. My point was that, since it was Cercei, I had no sympathy for her. If it had been, say, Sansa who suffered that way because she slept with Loras or whatever other silly excuse the Faith cooked up, you can bet my heart would have went to her big time. Same way I had sympathy for Theon for getting the Reek treatment, but I wouldn't have any sympathy for, say, Gregor suffering the same. It has nothing to do with Cercei being a woman or having sex with Moon Boy or whatever else, and it has everything to do with her being a so despicable person I don't feel bad when bad stuff happens to her, even when said bad stuff is ridiculous and incredibly misogynist.

By the way, this ties into what some people said earlier, that you sometimes seemingly can't even have a viewpoint about a woman other than deep sympathy, lest you have ''SEXIST'' screamed in your ears and various patronizing emotes rolled around by the paragons of forum morality.

[Mladen]

Yeah.

You are still not getting the point.

Not saying trial by combat wasn't an option. But for Cersei its a bit more difficult because she needs to be defended by a knight of a kingsguard.

The walk was to get the champion.

I am getting the point. I just disagree with it :)

The thing is that she would have gotten her champion even if she stayed in prison. She knew that, that is why she told Kevan to trust Qyburn so the two of them would make Strong a knight of KG. She basically did nothing and she knew she wasn't supposed to get anything. She knew that her champion is secured. That wasn't the issue here. Robert strong was named KG without her interference, and he would be her champion. All she had to do was to name him. The walk for the champion simply is illogical because she did already have it.

By safety are you referring to you r argument in post 266?

Yeah, not "they will kill me" safety, but "I feel insecure that I might spill something" safety...

Why the hell are you putting words in my mouth? Did I say I enjoyed it? That I cheered and bumped my fist at my brodah, the religious fanatic? I specifically said I thought the punishment was horribly sexist and in no way justified. My point was that, since it was Cercei, I had no sympathy for her. If it had been, say, Sansa who suffered that way because she slept with Loras or whatever other silly excuse the Faith cooked up, you can bet my heart would have went to her big time. Same way I had sympathy for Theon for getting the Reek treatment, but I wouldn't have any sympathy for, say, Gregor suffering the same. It has nothing to do with Cercei being a woman or having sex with Moon Boy or whatever else, and it has everything to do with her being a so despicable person I don't feel bad when bad stuff happens to her, even when said bad stuff is ridiculous and incredibly misogynist.

By the way, this ties into what some people said earlier, that you sometimes seemingly can't even have a viewpoint about a woman other than deep sympathy, lest you have ''SEXIST'' screamed in your ears and various patronizing emotes rolled around by the paragons of forum morality.

First, I didn't say you said that, I was making general statement about that. Apologies if that sounded that way. And, btw, I never called you religious fanatic... I don't think of people as religious fanatics :) Except if they are High Septon :)

For me, bad deed is a bad deed. No matter whether the person is good or right, I do believe that every human being deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, which was lacking in this case. As I said, I hate Cersei, but I can't pretend that what was done to her is right. That is how I feel about that... No matter whether we discuss Sansa or Cersei in this case, my favorite and my least favorite, they are the same. That is my point. No woman deserves to be punished for sexual life (regardless whether she is horrible human being)

I must have missed that post where someone says that I can't look at female characters other than with sympathy. I hate Cersei, but this is question of principle. Plus, you should hear me discuss many other female characters. I have positive feelings for some and for some I truly think the worst.

This is not about Cersei apologia. This is just opinion on the very controversial and divisive matter.

Again, I am sorry if my post came out as accusatory to you. It wasn't my attention...

[Florina Laufeyson]

Y'all, if I'm making higher moral demands than the average resident of the Land of the Free, maybe I'm not the one with the problem.

Hai. Please be more careful making statements like this, because of what its really assuming. That Americans lack morals in general.. That can be a very problematic mindset and rather offensive to some posters. Just kinda pointing that out.

I find Missandei to be annoying, thus I hope Dany leaves her in Essos when she returns to Westeros.

I like Show!Missandei.

I confess I almost encourage the show to deviate from the books, provided the stuff they change isn't really stupid.

Yeah im in this camp. As long as it makes sense and awesome, bring on the bizarro! Just...keep in the Shy Maid wackiness!

I confess while i cackled during the Walk of Shame, i got really mad at the High Septon once i thought about it. I do root for Cersei to get her revenge on him for that.

[Minsc]

I like Show!Missandei.

I am mixed on her, she isn't a creepy genius child however she instead has annoying romance plot with Grey Worm.

[Fat Mac]

I like Show!Missandei.

As do I, but that might be my crush on Nathalie Emmanuel :wub:

[Florina Laufeyson]

I am mixed on her, she isn't a creepy genius child however she instead has annoying romance plot with Grey Worm.

Im kinda mixed on the romance with Grey Worm. Im not sure if it will have a great pay-off in terms of entertainment or plot, but i like the kind of romance it is. That honest, deep kind of attraction. Its rather lovely, but i find its placement in the series in the wrong place (in terms of season...it should be saved for a slower paced season) and i dunno...Im ok with the idea of it though. :dunno:

As do I, but that might be my crush on Nathalie Emmanuel :wub:

:) Shes really gorgeous. I have a slight girl crush on her.

[Minsc]

Im kinda mixed on the romance with Grey Worm. Im not sure if it will have a great pay-off in terms of entertainment or plot, but i like the kind of romance it is. That honest, deep kind of attraction. Its rather lovely, but i find its placement in the series in the wrong place (in terms of season...it should be saved for a slower paced season) and i dunno...Im ok with the idea of it though. :dunno:

Meh, I think both actors are okay thus their acting is not the problem. The problem is I just think that it took up time that could be spent better else where. Also, the fact that I don't care for either characters in the book series means it is hard to care about them in the show at times.