Waterstones: HarperCollinsUK Letter

[Cas Stark]

It looks to me after looking it up, HarperCollins have this on display in their new office. Someone went to the office and took a camera phone, hence the frame glare, then posted it online, 'kindly' redacting the end. So its not like HarperCollins sent it to them? Wouldn't they have scanned it otherwise? So HarperCollins have the ending on display in their office for all visitors to see?

LOL, that is so crazy it's probably true.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

It looks to me after looking it up, HarperCollins have this on display in their new office. Someone went to the office and took a camera phone, hence the frame glare, then posted it online, 'kindly' redacting the end. So its not like HarperCollins sent it to them? Wouldn't they have scanned it otherwise? If that last paragraph is the SECOND of three books and it needs to be blacked out...yeesh!

I would presume Waterstones had no idea what was a spoiler or not and just went by what they thought could still be true?

It really does look as if the actual hard copy had been redacted with an actual black marker before being hung on display. If redacting were done to the picture, I imagine they'd just have drawn in Paint (or compatible) a solid black rectangle over the entire paragraph. There'd be no details peeking from underneath, made more visible by toying with levels and curves. Only solid non-revealing black.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

It really does look as if the actual hard copy had been redacted with an actual black marker before being hung on display. If redacting were done to the picture, I imagine they'd just have drawn in Paint (or compatible) a solid black rectangle over the entire paragraph. There'd be no details peeking from underneath, made more visible by toying with levels and curves. Only solid non-revealing black.

On their actual copy, hung like a museum piece?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On their actual copy, hung like a museum piece?

Yes.

ETA: it could have been done by the author himself. For one reason or another, he said to himself "Actually, I don't wanna put it in the letter", yet didn't want to retype the entire page. Hence, the black marker.

Of one I'm fairly certain, it was done to the page itself, not the photo.

[Lord Godric]

Its unfortunate that Martin didn't have all of this great advice when he started this series. I just don't know how he managed it. :rolleyes:

I understand now why he doesn't come to these forums- he wouldn't be able to hold up under the competition.

It's also probably a very good thing the work dies with him.

This work doesn't die with him. If we never were to get an ending from him we'll get an HBO ending, as unsatisfactory as that would be.

[Colonel Green]

Baelish and Cersei are only in the story because of Sansa????

Cersei and Jaime are one of the most creative relationships in the series, Cersei and LF being really fascinating and unique characters. No, they are certainly not there to serve another second row character, they have their own story, especially Cersei is very much there on her own right while Baelish is a clever all-purpose story tool, the villain to fit into every plot hole.

Sansa's not a "second row" character in the ASOIAF we actually got. That's one of the more obvious changes. I don't know about Cersei, but Littlefinger does appear to, in great part, exist to be part of Sansa's story. Indeed, the bulk of his backstory has been sculpted to make him fixated on her, and it's through her eyes that we learn most of the major stuff about him from book 3 onward.

On their actual copy, hung like a museum piece?

It's most likely a copy of the original letter, which would presumably still be in America.

[Alia of the knife]

This work doesn't die with him. If we never were to get an ending from him we'll get an HBO ending, as unsatisfactory as that would be.

Martin made a statement that the work would die with him, and his notes would not be given to anyone else.

[Colonel Green]

Martin made a statement that the work would die with him, and his notes would not be given to anyone else.

That has nothing to do with what the post you're responding to said, which is that HBO will still give an approximation of the ending, regardless of what happens.

[TeethGrinder]

Pretty confident that this has spoiled the ending. Maybe not in terms of what will happen but certainly in terms of what wont.

Those survivors that he named. At least 3 of them will make it until the end. And we are getting the dreaded Jon/Dany ending.

[teej6]

Alfie Allen's rambling about Jon Snow and medieval incest sort of makes sense now.

[RumHam]

Martin made a statement that the work would die with him, and his notes would not be given to anyone else.

I wonder if this would actually play out that way. Authors' wishes about unpublished works are often disregarded once they are gone. Hell Harper Lee's wishes are being disregarded and she's still technically alive.

[MoIaF]

Alfie Allen's rambling about Jon Snow and medieval incest sort of makes sense now.

This is what Alfie actually said:

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

It seems to me that he was trying to make a connection between Jon and Targaryens without being too obvious.

[teej6]

This is what Alfie actually said:

It seems to me that he was trying to make a connection between Jon and Targaryens without being too obvious.

Perhaps, but I feel he was going beyond the Jon/Targ connection. No need to bring up incest as Jon doesn't appear to be a product of it, unless it may happen in his story arc down the line.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Pretty confident that this has spoiled the ending. Maybe not in terms of what will happen but certainly in terms of what wont.

Those survivors that he named. At least 3 of them will make it until the end. And we are getting the dreaded Jon/Dany ending.

Some of us don't mind a Jon/Dany ending... although I don't see how you're getting that out of this letter. Most feel this kills Jon/Dany.

I think the letter isn't telling us much that's new. It does confirm the most important characters in the series in Martin's mind -- I think that hasn't changed much.

I'm just grateful that the "Dany is going MAD!!!" and "All Targs are EVIL!!!" threads have died down for now. They were getting out of hand.

[MoIaF]

Perhaps, but I feel he was going beyond the Jon/Targ connection. No need to bring up incest as Jon doesn't appear to be a product of it, unless it may happen in his story arc down the line.

Well, he also discussed succession which we know is a big problem in Westeros.

I'll repeat what I said in the other thread:

If Martin or his publisher sanctioned in any way the release of this document it's almost assured that this development is likely not to happen. If there were any notions of it happening they would have blacked out that portion like they did the portion with what appears to be a mention of the Others, because it would have lead to a major spoiler.

[TheGoodShipAlbion]

One thing I gather from these letters is that perhaps GRRM grew rather attached to Sansa and Jaime, and therefore instead of keeping them as unlikable characters, brought a sympathetic and redeeming arc into their stories, and put them on a completely different path.

[Lord Godric]

One thing I gather from these letters is that perhaps GRRM grew rather attached to Sansa and Jaime, and therefore instead of keeping them as unlikable characters, brought a sympathetic and redeeming arc into their stories, and put them on a completely different path.

Well, for Jaime anyway, it seems as if he just decided to make him twins and then have Cersei take the other route while Jaime goes on a different path. Sansa, on the other hand, I do have to wonder if over time he realized the potential of her character and instead of just using her to get a child for Joffrey decided she could be much more.

[Weirdo]

Well, she definitely chose Joff/Cerse (Lannister) over Ned (Stark) in the KL crisis, and arguably re: the butcher boy. I agree it wasn't a long-considered move...much more reactional selfishness blinding her to much beyond what she wanted...but I am not certain the draft makes deliberation all that explicit either. Selfish people have a way of being insulated from things that don't affect them...until they do, at which point they act 'rashly' or w/e.

So even if we argue that Sansa had somehow managed to tune out all the borderline warfare going on around her so as to not fully realize the impact of her betraying Ned's plans to Cersei (beyond stopping Ned from doing what he wanted to do, obviously) there's no reason to suggest GRRM's drafted form of the betrayal wasn't envisioned along those lines in the first place. The time element seems much more strongly suggested in terms of regretting, which is I think true to the text, though admittedly Sansa has yet to show any overt regret for her decisions, but imo that's mostly her being in a pretty deep state of trauma.

Just to throw in with the Sansa Inquisition a bit, marrying Joffrey was NEVER presented to Sansa as a choice! She was kicked over to Robert by Ned with very little thought.

Also, when she was about to throw her life away for a chance to take Joffrey with her off the battlement, that didn't seem selfish to me. Did seem rather regretful, though, not to mention loyal to her family.

I think readers hate on Sansa because she acts like most of us would do in her situation. She's not heroic, she's human. But she's banking a great deal of rage, and she's apprenticed to a master of the game right now. Sansa is a lot of fun to read, and I expect her story will pay off for us readers. Whether it ends well for Sansa is another question entirely.

[Weirdo]

The fact that he's not mentioned and may not even exist in the original plan only confirms that he is not that important, or at least not a game-changing character.

Not a game-changing character =/= FAKE!

Your logic:

• If the real Aegon survived the sack, then he will definitely be important

He's not mentioned in original plan, so he must be dead

Any character in the story presented as Aegon is thus fake

But who says the real Aegon must be important? The real Aegon (if alive) might never have any impact on the story if GRRM intended him not to. In other words, Young Griff could still be the real Aegon and not play a game-changing role.

Exactly. He's riding for a fall, it seems to me, because they raised him to be overconfident despite all their helicopter parenting. He's green, and as I said elsewhere, Jaime could take him one-handed.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Just to throw in with the Sansa Inquisition a bit, marrying Joffrey was NEVER presented to Sansa as a choice! She was kicked over to Robert by Ned with very little thought.

If you find a shred of a shadow of a hint that this match was anything but what Sansa dreamed of, do share.