rozemarijn Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 It looks to me after looking it up, HarperCollins have this on display in their new office. Someone went to the office and took a camera phone, hence the frame glare, then posted it online, 'kindly' redacting the end. So its not like HarperCollins sent it to them? Wouldn't they have scanned it otherwise? If that last paragraph is the SECOND of three books and it needs to be blacked out...yeesh! I would presume Waterstones had no idea what was a spoiler or not and just went by what they thought could still be true?So, no one is visiting New York by chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 So, no one is visiting New York by chance? I live there, but I don't get what you expect me to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danelle Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Jaime says to Cersei in AGOT that he does not want to be Hand, because it it too much work. But it is heavily implied that he wants to be king, or to put his son on the throne. And don't forget: Does it really? In GOT Jaime has a crucial but limited presence. He first appears in Jon's POV where he is described looking like a King. Later Stannis confesses to Davos that he and Robert as children they thought the same for Tywin. Bran sees him having sex with Cersei. To be fair, Jaime couldn;t have predicted that Bran would disobey his mother and go climbing at a deserted tower, but there seems to be a huge risk still. His decision to have sex with Cersei at Winterfell, seems to be based on passion and not in logic (the nature of his relationship with Cersei is based on passion). He knows that Ned loathes him and he ought to be more cautious. Tyrion during breakfast, following Bran's fall interacts with his family. This is how Jaime appears from Tyrion's POV: "The king has not slept at all," she told him. "He is with Lord Eddard. He has taken their sorrow deeply to heart." "He has a large heart, our Robert," Jaime said with a lazy smile. There was very little that Jaime took seriously. Tyrion knew that about his brother, and forgave it. During all the terrible long years of his childhood, only Jaime had ever shown him the smallest measure of affection or respect, and for that Tyrion was willing to forgive him most anything. For Tyrion, Jaime's attitude appears carefree, careless and almost indifferent. Tyrion had just ridiculed and slapped Joffrey because he exhibited a similar behavior. Both Jaime and Joffrey appear unaffected by the tragedy but Tyrion chastises only Joffrey. Not Jaime. He cannot do that exactly because Jaime loved him. The most anything part makes me wonder if it is a foreshadowing for Tyrion's reaction when he founds out about Tysha. Still it is established that there is a bond between the two siblings. In the draft, Jaime plots against Tyrion and falsely accuses him for the murders that Jaime did. This is something that in GOT defines Cersei and LF, not Jaime. "I don't want Brandon to die," Tommen said timorously. He was a sweet boy. Not like his brother, but then Jaime and Tyrion were somewhat less than peas in a pod themselves. The Joffrey/Tommen dichotomy appears to correspond to the Jaime/Tyrion. But unlike Joffrey, Jaime does seem to care and love people even though this love might turn disastrous. His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on." Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime, "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family." Again this is a foreshadowing of Tyrion leaving the Lannisters and seeking other allies. He expresses his distaste for the Lannisters and his admiration for the Starks but his feelings for Jaime are genuine. He loves him. As for Jaime, he worries about Bran waking up and revealing the truth, which means that Jaime, Cersei and their children are in danger. Nothing suggests that he wants Joffrey, Tommen or Myrcella at the Iron Throne or that he regards the Starks as political opponents. Then we have the attack against Ned and his men. Confronting the Hand, who is also Warden of the North and executing his men, was a blunder. Jaime didn't act as a coldblooded schemer. He placed himself and his House in danger, including his children. He forgot that Joffrey was to marry Sansa and the beneficial results. Instead the moment he heard that his beloved brother was arrested, he attacked whoever he thought that was responsible. Not to mention that this is not included in the KG duties. Eventually when he marched against the Starks towards the end of GOT, he was caught because he was careless and hasty. Jaime's GOT behaviour certainly doesn't depict him as a thoughtful, considerate, kind person. Instead he is arrogant, dangerous, brash, impulsive and doesn't care for the consequences of his actions. But nothing really suggests that he cares about power or Joffrey becoming King. If he did, then why ruin such an important alliance? "I was still mounted. I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. I stopped in front of the throne, looking up at him. His golden sword was across his legs, its edge red with a king's blood. My men were filling the room behind me. Lannister's men drew back. I never said a word. I looked at him seated there on the throne, and I waited. At last Jaime laughed and got up. He took off his helm, and he said to me, ‘Have no fear, Stark. I was only keeping it warm for our friend Robert. It's not a very comfortable seat, I'm afraid.' " The king threw back his head and roared. His laughter startled a flight of crows from the tall brown grass. They took to the air in a wild beating of wings. "You think I should mistrust Lannister because he sat on my throne for a few moments?" He shook with laughter again. "Jaime was all of seventeen, Ned. Scarce more than a boy." "Boy or man, he had no right to that throne." "Perhaps he was tired," Robert suggested. "Killing kings is weary work. Gods know, there's no place else to rest your ass in that damnable room. And he spoke truly, it is a monstrous uncomfortable chair. In more ways than one." The king shook his head. "Well, now I know Jaime's dark sin, and the matter can be forgotten. Ned was right to be wary of Jaime but Robert was right not to worry that one day Jaime might take his throne. Besides Robert was the one who lived with Jaime, not Ned. Jaime was not written as a Machiavellian mastermind, who covets the Iron Throne. He was written as a reckless knight, who covets the wife of the man who sits on the Iron Throne. His tragedy is that the wife is his sister, and the one who wants the throne for her son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Yes, and the clear impression you get from AGOT about Jaime (pushes Bran out the window, kills Aerys and then grabs the throne, Cersei apparently confirms that that is what he was trying to do, commits treason a second time while he is in the kingsguard by having an affair with the queen, appears to be conspiring with Cersei to kill Robert and put his own son on the throne) is that he is a power-hungry villian. This isn't just the Stark point of view, because it is backed up by what Cersei tells Ned. Two books later, Jaime tells Brienne that he never wanted the throne but sat on it because he was tired (an odd thing to say if the throne really had as many steps as the picture in the world book indicates). My point is that this letter appears to confirm that GRRM changed his mind about whether Jaime would be a hero or a villain. If you look back at how Jaime is portrayed in AGOT, I think GRRM changed his mind about this after publishing AGOT, not before. I disagree with your assessment. Just because he was painted to look like a total villain in the first book doesn't mean the author didn't intend to have him turn around before AGoT was published. As you pointed out, the turn-around comes in book three...which was originally part of book one. The first three books were written over a period of ten years as one book. It got too big and had to be split, so Jaime's turnaround was very likely part of the first draft for AGoT. Yes, clearly in the original idea for the series, Jaime was all villain, but I think GRRM planned to give him at least some redemption as soon as he really got into the writing and found that Jaime doesn't want to be the ultimate bad guy. Thus he created Tywin and Cersei, both of whom are in AGoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirdo Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2usz8v/spoilers_all_uncovering_the_blanked_text_in_grrms/ There are a few others, but this one seems to have done the most work. So, looks like... J.S.Bach is involved... and then something about the Borg, well there's a surprise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 The letter backs up my idea that Brienne was split from Jaime because Jaime simply had too much to do in the middle of his arc. He couldn't be both chasing after Sansa to restore his honour and becoming Tywin, so Brienne was created to carry the Sansa part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 So, no one is visiting New York by chance?London Bridgehttp://www.thebookseller.com/news/harpercollins-finalises-office-transfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirdo Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I live there, but I don't get what you expect me to do? Take a picture from an angle, at very high resolution. If it's an original typed letter, the type would have left an impression on the page, which someone might be able to tease out by messing with levels in Photoshop. Take a few pictures, focusing on different parts of the paragraph, so there is a sharp image of left middle and center. Don't forget bail money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I never cared for that expression. Who shits out of their hand? Shouldn't it be the King takes the shit and the hand has to wipe?I don't like it either, but it explains why Jaime would not want to be Hand even though he aspires to be king. Where?Jaime wanting to be king is implied by him killing Aerys while his father is sacking the city, and then climbing up onto the throne, then telling his sister about it in a way that suggests that he was trying to seize the throne. And, killing all the pyromancers so no one can find the wildfire stashed around King's Landing -- except for his own family (so Tyrion can use it at the Battle of the Blackwater).Him wanting to put his son on the throne is implied when he engages in an affair with the queen and then passes his own children off as the true heirs to the throne not once, but three times. And then giving every appearance of coordinating his actions with Cersei when Cersei and cousin Lancel arrange for the king to be killed while Jaime and his father raise an army and invade the Riverlands.Among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon Blackfyre IV Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Also, there seems to be something to this Needle we haven't considered. The direwolves, Bran's magic and ... Needle, help the Starks (sans Cat) survive the Others attack.I also considered that I'm thinking originally she was gonna kill ppl who didn't expect it or she is as old as Jon and bad ass like the sand snakes. Now I think she still kills major players as a rogue faceless assassin with needle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Among other things.No that's not the motivation or implication of any of those at all, and his real motivations are well explained. It is as Tyrion says, Jaime ran from every chance he had to rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 So I read a lot of theories that dany or Jon dies since they don't how will the ending be bitter sweet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 There are germs of ambitious Evil Jaime in the early chapters of AGoT, yes, but they quickly were dropped. Remnants could include Jaime's correct assessment of Littlefinger as ambitious and dangerous, whereas 'real Jaime' actually thinks Littlefinger could make a decent Hand for Tommen. Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne may be another sign for overall Lannister ambition and hubriy, which does not actually sit well with the man Jaime now was supposed to be during the Sack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Jaime is arrogant and very irreverent, that's just his nature. Him sitting on the IT totally fits with that. He just wanted to enjoy the view from up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireAndBlood. Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The letter backs up my idea that Brienne was split from Jaime because Jaime simply had too much to do in the middle of his arc. He couldn't be both chasing after Sansa to restore his honour and becoming Tywin, so Brienne was created to carry the Sansa part. Do you expect Jaime to survive his encounter with Stoneheart at the expense of Brienne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I expect both to survive, but Jaime will definitely live, he has his own arc to finish and is part of many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daena the Defiant Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Does anyone else thinks that Robb maiming Joffrey was later changed to Vargo maiming Jaime? I looked at this fast and thought you said "Robb marrying Joffrey" which is pretty progressive for 1993. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Velt, that would be the present-day interpretation. But Jaime was a KG for three years. He knows that only the King and the Hand are allowed to sit up there, and he is neither. Whatever Aerys was, it simply was not Jaime's place to go up there. More fitting to a man with ambition than to a cocksure guy who doesn't care. He knew what sort of sign this would send, and he should not have been surprised that Ned was pissed about that little stunt - much more than about the kingslaying thing, actually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 He knew, just didn't care, as is completely consistent with his character. If anything those scenes serve to demonstrate he doesn't covet the throne. The city belongs to his father, he sits the throne and gets asked if a new king is to be declared, he is given the opportunity to push the envelope if power is really what he's after, but his attitude is just "nope, nil interest". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 In the beginning of GoT in the conversation that Bran had heard Jaime didn't just not want to become Hand. He dismissed absolutely every Cersei's concern about the danger they were under, didn't care that Lysa might have known something about incest, didn't care about Ned coming to KG and was simply tired of listening to Cersei speaking about plots and intrigues. He simply didn't care about anything that Cersei was telling him back then. And that's completely consistent with Jaime from later books - with Jaime who had no ambitions for power whatsoever. Not with Jaime who would kill to get the throne. He knew, just didn't care, as is completely consistent with his character.He probably didn't even think about how him sitting on the IT would look like. Which is also completely consistent with his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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