princess_snow Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Overall I liked the season. Spoiler I found Pipers Godfather role quite funny, I usually detest her. It was sad to see Lolly go and I thought her story was one of the best this season. Poussey story was tragic, cant believe I didn't see that coming. I found the Doughnuts/ Doggett story hard to watch and like in any way. I haven't figured out why I feel indifferent to this show at times. I cant binge it like my other shows. I watch one or two eps and need a break from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Reminds me a little of that show Cop Rock. Over the top ridiculous camp mixed with very serious subject matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoshi Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 On 25/06/2016 at 8:38 AM, PetyrPunkinhead said: I guess what I mean by that with Donuts is he raped Dogget, but I'm putting a distinction between that and someone who intentionally commits rape or habitually intentionally commits rape. I'd apply the same line of logic to "Guy A" who kills someone accidentally in a car accident versus " Guy B" who shoots multiple people in cold blood over (insert a self serving motive here). Both Guys have technically killed someone but I'd only label Guy B a murderer. Another example would be the label of criminal. If you go 8 miles over the speed limit on the interstate even once then you're technically a criminal just like the guy who robbed six liquor stores is a criminal. Personally I wouldn't consider someone who goes 8 mph over the speed limit a criminal though. I'm very confused as to how someone could accidentally rape someone. As another poster said above, it's rape culture mentality to state he wasn't in control of either his own penis or emotions at the time. She said no and he didn't stop. He raped her. He can feel bad about it all he likes but he still raped her. And it wasn't accidental like someone hitting someone else with a car. It's like the guy who raped a girl and said he accidentally slipped and his penis fell into her vagina. It's bullcrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetyrPunkinhead Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 17 hours ago, Kyoshi said: I'm very confused as to how someone could accidentally rape someone. As another poster said above, it's rape culture mentality to state he wasn't in control of either his own penis or emotions at the time. She said no and he didn't stop. He raped her. He can feel bad about it all he likes but he still raped her. And it wasn't accidental like someone hitting someone else with a car. It's like the guy who raped a girl and said he accidentally slipped and his penis fell into her vagina. It's bullcrap. OK, so I went back and re-watched that actual scene from season three. I didn't recall it being so forceful. Yup, he's totally a rapist. His complete unawareness of this doesn't excuse him from that label--rapist. Donuts believed he was in a relationship with Doggett and literally had to be told he raped her. So something wasn't clicking with him and the realization, shame, and guilt over this fact seemed to soak into him over several episodes. I think the audience is quicker to side with Boo's POV and vilify Donuts because we as an audience saw that look on Doggett's face while it happened and knew her backstory. From Donuts' POV he seemed to feel like she wa sinto this scenario. So that's what I meant by he didn't intentionally rape her. I think there's a distinction between that and a guy saying his penis "accidentally" slipped into a vagina. I think this was an intentional move on the part of the writers to show rape isn't always black and white and clear cut as someone being roofied. They could've easily made Donuts an outright villain like Humps, but this thing between Doggett and Donuts is messy. They both have emotions and feel a connection. That line she has which the episode is named after, "Toast can't ever be bread again," is so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiDisaster Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I finished the season last night. Enjoyed it but I thought it was the weakest of the four. I am not having this Donuts redemption nonsense in any way, shape or form. Fuck that scumbag. I'm with Boo 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I'm not finished with the season yet, but I can get behind the idea of Donuts being redeemed based on what I've seen in the first 8 episodes so far. What he did to Doggett was terrible, but I think intent matters. He didn't intend to hurt her and was genuinely unaware that he'd done so. Once she explained that to him though, he seemed genuinely sorry and repentant toward her. It doesn't change what happened, but if he does want to make amends and learn from his mistake, then I think there is something redeeming about that. That said, there's still a few episodes left in the season for me, so I could change my mind about that before it's all finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litechick Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 It's hard to discuss a full season all at once. Right now, what is on my mind is Piper and her scars. The white tattoo, 'Trust No Bitch' we do not see in this season. Her own trite infinity sign is infected but I don't have any real sense of what that means to her. The Nazi Window is interesting because she gets in over her head with prison thugs and we can enjoy the juxtaposition of the enemy holding her down for branding vs. her friends holding her down for branding. It's all right but I do feel a little beaten over the head with the message that she is forever changed by her experiences in prison. I am disgruntled with the death plot in several ways. I feel like the writers started with the premise 'untrained guards + disgruntled inmates = death of an innocent person of color' and then reverse engineered a situation in which they felt it was plausible for this to happen. Part of the reason that this is a difficult pill for me to swallow is that I believe there is a line between polite resistance and mortal resistance. The filmmakers did not do a good job of delineating that difference. The victim is >100 lbs, struggles feebly to no avail, etc. In a sense, they make it Suzanne's fault because she distracts the guard with her attack so that he doesn't notice he is killing someone. This begs the question, Was it right for Suzanne to be protected from psyche? We are given the absolute that psyche is worse than anything the prison system can throw at a person (worse than Max, worse than solitary) but then we are given a situation where a person's reprieve from psyche leads to an innocent death and a nonsensical battering --not to mention the repercussions to Suzanne in feeling guilty for that death or the implication that her mental deficiencies led to death or serious injury for the child from the flashback. How could Caputo possibly be that ineffective? We are given a character of experience who wants to do the right thing and is eternally manipulated into failing in his goals. Why should he apologize to Figg? She didn't face any of his challenges. She was corrupt and insulated from the repercussions of her decisions. I have sympathy for the plot of 'workers don't understand the challenges faced by authorities' but this is poorly executed by the writers. In order to drive home the point of the difficult decisions Caputo has to make, they render him weak and irresolute. The staff EMT says, 'she was dead when I got here so she is not my problem' and that means she has to lie there for how long? Long enough to destabilize the entire prison. Caputo would have been well within his rights to either force the EMTs to take her body to the infirmary or call the police without the blessing of corporate and yet he does neither of these things. Is that the point, that Caputo--despite his good intentions--is a bad leader who is not worthy of his position? Are there any good leaders in this show? The only way in which he asserts himself is to defend the dumb kid guard whom he knows was unqualified for the position. Guh? You specifically warned the kid to quit the job and then risked it all to preserve his employment? Doesn't make any sense. To conclude I can only say that I see what the writers were trying to do, they did do some good stuff, but ultimately they failed on several key points. The best feedback I have is the development of Lorna. I loved that she could see herself falling into the same crazy trap that had brought her to this state and her helplessness to deviate and change her past mistakes. Hopefully she will triumph somehow and be released to find both love and reality. I would also echo those who say that veterans are treated poorly in this script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 That storyline seemed like they crammed a bunch of stuff in there to represent real life news stories. Like Pousseys body laying there looked like an obvious representation of Micheal Brown (Ferguson) whose body was left uncovered for hours after death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 On 6/27/2016 at 11:32 PM, PetyrPunkinhead said: OK, so I went back and re-watched that actual scene from season three. I didn't recall it being so forceful. Yup, he's totally a rapist. His complete unawareness of this doesn't excuse him from that label--rapist. Donuts believed he was in a relationship with Doggett and literally had to be told he raped her. So something wasn't clicking with him and the realization, shame, and guilt over this fact seemed to soak into him over several episodes. I think the audience is quicker to side with Boo's POV and vilify Donuts because we as an audience saw that look on Doggett's face while it happened and knew her backstory. From Donuts' POV he seemed to feel like she wa sinto this scenario. So that's what I meant by he didn't intentionally rape her. I think there's a distinction between that and a guy saying his penis "accidentally" slipped into a vagina. I think this was an intentional move on the part of the writers to show rape isn't always black and white and clear cut as someone being roofied. They could've easily made Donuts an outright villain like Humps, but this thing between Doggett and Donuts is messy. They both have emotions and feel a connection. That line she has which the episode is named after, "Toast can't ever be bread again," is so true. I think yes, that it shows that rape isn't always black and white, but more importantly, it's a storyline that explores rape culture. It comes at a pretty apt time with the Stanford rapist case being so public around the time this season was released. Rape culture can often be hard to describe, explain and accept as something very real. Despite all the discussion about Donuts, what he did, and how he actually feels about it, there's still a poster at the top of his thread who is all "yup, he's totally redeemed now that he feels bad". Feeling bad about something isn't redemption. Insisting that a person feels regret and thus shouldn't be punished or should be given some sort of metaphorical award is a huge part of rape culture and why it continues. What I hope to see next season is a continuation of this where they look at how boys are indoctrinated into this sort of culture. You know, starting with the little stuff like teaching that 'boys will be boys' or that boys hurt girls because they like them and working up through puberty and into adulthood. On a different note, about Daya. I think she was the best one to have picked up the gun. She's at a crossroads in her life (they were a bit heavy-handed with the imagery there). She's never been just on her own. She's either been parentified or she's been under her mother's thumb. She's never been able to really make decisions for herself, not even about what happened to her own baby. Despite being in jail, I think not being a child parent and not having her mom control all of her actions is a very new experience. Daya picking up the gun is where we get to see who she is when she's standing on her own. If I had to speculate, I'd say that Daya probably does something that de-escalates the situation. I don't think we'll really get the full on riot. It will be good for Daya, but the tragedy is that Poussey's death will probably forever be swept under the rug, what happened to Sophia will continue to not be publicized, the women will go on having no opportunities to improve their lives while in prison, and Judy King will get out and sing the praises of Litchfield and everyone will listen and believe the privileged wealthy white woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Just finished the season last night. Wow, that was a pretty dark season and some arcs were difficult to watch, namely Lolly and Sophia. This show has slowly been flipping from a comedy with serious undertones to a drama with comedic undertones. Anyways, more thoughts on the season. The guards were almost entirely sadistic or completely incompetent. Shades of Stanford Prison Experiment and Abu Ghraib. I agree with the boarder who said the show is hard on veterans. When Dixon talked about making Afghani children juggle grenades because he was bored, bullshit. I realize they needed to build up the tension for that finale, but it would have been a little less ridiculous if the guards and some of the prisoners were a bit more believable, i.e. varying shades of gray. After seeing very little of race tensions the previous seasons (season 2 was the only one that really treated it to any significant degree) it was full blown this season and got a bit tiring. Understandable as part of the tension with prison overcrowding, but a bit too much in the viewer's face. As stated above, some arcs were difficult views, Lolly's was probably the hardest to watch, followed closely by Sophia's. I liked Healy's trying to help her and his backstory with his mother. Granted, I think Healy has more than a few issues himself. Judy King's arc was difficult because I could not stand the character. A Martha Stewart clone, nothing else. Her interactions with Jones were comical, though. The one bright spot of her arc. Basically calling Jones on her hypocrisy. Yes, Caputo seemed to have no control and his about face saving Bailey had me shaking my head. Hated his relationship with Ferguson, but I suppose the show wanted to really push the MCC seduction of Caputo metaphor. He was basically set up to fail with MCC. There was no way there would be a happy ending for him with MCC taking over. It was nice to have Nichols back, granted her arc always deals with kicking her drug habit, but I like her gallows sense of humor. I'm not sure if the Nichols/Lorna or the Doggett/Donuts "relationship" is more fucked up. Lorna really reached a breaking point and Nichols always does with her addictions. The two seem codependent. Donuts will always be a rapist and sadly there are women who forgive assholes like that. I loved Big Boo's take on that whole situation. I actually liked how the show tackled Poussey's death. The tensions between the guards and inmates finally boiled over and her resulting death, while not necessarily an accident, leaves room for a lot of analysis: Suzanne's part, Bailey's part, MCC and the guards' responsibility. I appreciated the showrunners' challenging of the viewer and their interpretation of the events. I'm a bit torn on the cliffhanger. I find myself waffling on whether Daya was the best choice, but also see how it ties in with her mother leaving Litchfield and not being able to keep her out of trouble. Mendoza's attempts to keep her from Diaz's negative influence, etc. I think other inmates had a much bigger axe to grind with the guards: Flores, Maritza, Tastey, Red. However, those characters would probably be a sure thing for pulling the trigger. We're not sure with Daya. Overall, a decent season. Not my favorite, but not as bad as season two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Judy King is Paula Dean, not Martha Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I suppose with the racist comments in her past. I was thinking Martha due to the prison stint. Regardless, I hated the character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Yeh she was terrible in nearly every way. Written badly, acted badly, and generally annoying. Also did anyone get a rapey vibe from Nichols when she was trying to get back with Lorna?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Judy wasn't the first character in the show I've hated, but Vee was an amazing antagonist I loved to hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Vee was different for me. I hated the character but I thought she was conceived, written, and acted very well. I saw none of that with Judy King. I didn't love to hate the character, it was distractly bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I agree with you concerning Vee. I found the other inmates' reactions to Judy, especially Jones and Cindy, humorous, but King was just a cardboard cutout that fell flat like most do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First of My Name Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Huh. I really enjoyed Judy King, surprised at the negative reactions. But being Dutch and young I know next to nothing about Paula Dean and Martha Stewart, so she felt new to me instead of a stand-in for either. But that's a writing issue and thought the actress was pretty amusing regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Enjoyed it but I also had a lot more problems with it than in previous series. Spoiler It was still sharp, clever and funny and the dialogue was great as usual. But the plotting leaves a lot to be desired. Half the things that happen make no real sense, aren't particularly believable or seem contrived to get the intended result. - Guard goes missing in the middle of his shift, never mentioned by anybody even when they dig up a body. - Sophia in the shu. Why is she even still there? Why does she get released when MCC see a picture? Why do they care? - At least two genuine pschopaths amongst ex-military personnel. Come on. And how is Humps not immediately arrested as soon as Maritza gets back to camp? (plus who would eat the mouse instead of the flies? Wtf.) - Caputo's ineffectiveness in the corporate structure. This went beyond a character study of an ineffectual but proud man or a look at the shady boardroom practices played for laughs. I just can't believe there could be a body lying where it fell for about a day. And nobody calls the police? That's a criminal offence itself surely. - Can you kill a person by briefly kneeling on their neck? Not sure about that one, maybe you can. Seemed pretty mild. - Suzanne's treatment was a bit inconsistent. She clearly shouldn't be left alone for the weekend if she doesn't know not to kidnap small children. But she has a job? On the Donuts thing Spoiler It's not a redemption arc. It's Doggett's story. She forgives him, she builds a relationship with him. He only appears in a couple of scenes. And it's pretty clear from the final episode he's still scum. Not just his conversation with Doggett but with Bayley as well. And on Poussey, something nobody mentioned, i dont think Spoiler I got a real Poussey goes to heaven vibe from the final "flashback." There is a bit where she takes the facebook pic. But there's also a bit where she looks right at the camera and smiles. And the whole thing was totally surreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Anyone watching the new season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said: Anyone watching the new season? Didn't even know it is out Planning to... I really enjoyed Season 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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