R+L=J v.139

[FrozenFire3]

Interesting interview with Kit Harington from the leading Italian newspaper 'la Repubblica'. I'll translate a few passages, trying to stay as faithful to the text as I can:

Jon is an idealist, a virtous [man] from an emotional point of view. What moves Jon Snow is his sense of duty and honour [...] Romantic ideals are a strong trait in Jon [...] Jon taught me how to love and express my feeling in a spontaneous way.

Channeling Rhaegar? lol

There is a scene in which [Jon] asks his step-father "Does my mother care about me? Does she know where I am?"

Step-father???

Last BUT not least...

I have the feeling that in the course of the next season such a mystery [Jon's parentage] will be slowly unveiled.

That 'next' is subject to interpretation. My impression is they are talking about this season, the second part of the interview (the one including the spoiler tagged passage) being all about the upcoming season 5. Make of it what you will ;)

Update: Added the screenshots if you are unable to follow the link to the article.

[BearQueen87]

Step-father?!

Kay. lol

[UnmaskedLurker]

Why would he make the Ice and Fire connection if he already thought Aegon was the promised prince? With a comet and everything. Everything (aside from Ice and Fire song which we don't even know what exactly is about) pointed to him.

And really, do we know what the song of ice and fire is? Could be that maybe it isn't about the Targaryen and Stark houses, but about the battle in the winter using the flaming sword (Jon dreamed that he was wielding a flaming sword on the Wall.) We associate with those two houses because it is the only things we know.

These are important questions to unravel the mystery of what Rhaegar thought he was doing. Let me address your second point first.

What does the song of ice and fire mean? I get frustrated by this question whenever anyone suggests that it means only one thing. I cannot find the SSM right now -- but I am fairly certain that GRRM has clarified that it does not mean just one thing -- but many things. Personally, even without an SSM it is clear that the title of the series, as "poetic" as it is, will have more than one meaning. In its most basic sense, it is a reference to what this period in Westeros history will be known as in the future. I believe it also represents the balance that the world needs between opposing forces to set things right. There are probably other symbolic meanings to the title. I also thinks it has some more narrow specific meanings -- such as the battle between the Others and the Dragons. But one of the many meanings is that Jon, as the union of Lyanna and Rhaegar, is the embodiment of the Song of Ice and Fire, personified.

But what the title really means is the not the same as the relevant question here -- what does Rhaegar thinks it means? At the time of the HotU vision, I have no idea what Rhaegar thinks it means -- and he probably does not know at that time. He is just quoting the prophecy. But when he later comes to realize that he will have a child with Lyanna Stark, I think he would find the Ice/Fire connection (supported by the knowledge of the Pact of Ice and Fire) too tempting not to conclude that if the song of TPTWP will be the song of ice and fire, a child by him and Lyanna would be ice and fire.

So to answer your first question -- why would Rhaegar change his mind? He already changed it once -- he used to think that he himself would be TPTWP. I think that information is a clue that Rhaegar is capable of changing his mind on this interpretation. What are the basic clues in the prophecy to identify who will be the promised prince? Smoke - salt -- burning star in the skies. I think that Rhaegar would have kept an open mind and looked for these clues with respect to his child with Lyanna. But he already thought that he himself met these clues -- but then changed his mind to Aegon. So Rhaegar already knew that smoke, salt and burning star might be "false clues" in the sense of appearing to point to a person who is not really TPTWP. In other words, the same question can be asked regarding why Rhaegar would ever consider Aegon if Rhaegar already met all the criteria himself. But we know he did change his mind at least that one time. The one thing, however, that would be unique to a son born to Rhaegar and Lyanna that neither Rhaegar nor Aegon possibly could have is to be the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified.

[sj4iy]

Interesting interview with Kit Harington from the leading Italian newspaper 'la Repubblica'. I'll translate a few passages, trying to stay as faithful to the text as I can:

Channeling Rhaegar? lol

Step-father???

Last BUT not least...

I have the feeling that in the course of the next season such a mystery [Jon's parentage] will be slowly unveiled.

That 'next' is subject to interpretation. My impression is they are talking about this season, the second part of the interview (the one including the spoiler tagged passage) being all about the upcoming season 5. Make of it what you will ;)

Update: Added the screenshots if you are unable to follow the link to the article.

Awesome. I figured that his parentage would be revealed this season or the next...glad to see that I'm not far.

[Alia of the knife]

In terms of Rhaegar and prophesy, and whatever he thinks he is supposed do, again, is it just all about siring super babies, or why doesn't he himself do things more actionable like send more money and recruits to the Wall?

Aemon pretty much begs Tyrion to intercede for that reason.

Also, did Rhaegar ever know his own mother was pregnant again?

In terms of planning to prophesy, in my reporter days, I had to interview former members of a cult, and prophesy played a big role. Within that role, they follow it to the letter, so Rhaegar naming his firstborn daughter "Rhaenys" rather than "Visenya," when it was Visenya who was the oldest seems an interesting deviation.

[Ser Creighton]

In terms of Rhaegar and prophesy, and whatever he thinks he is supposed do, again, is it just all about siring super babies, or why doesn't he himself do things more actionable like send more money and recruits to the Wall?

Aemon pretty much begs Tyrion to intercede for that reason.

Also, did Rhaegar ever know his own mother was pregnant again?

In terms of planning to prophesy, in my reporter days, I had to interview former members of a cult, and prophesy played a big role. Within that role, they follow it to the letter, so Rhaegar naming his firstborn daughter "Rhaenys" rather than "Visenya," when it was Visenya who was the oldest seems an interesting deviation.

Unless he thought the births might be in a reverse order, not that anyone has ever spoken of this. I wonder how Jon Visenya Targaryen will take the news?

[Nami]

In terms of Rhaegar and prophesy, and whatever he thinks he is supposed do, again, is it just all about siring super babies, or why doesn't he himself do things more actionable like send more money and recruits to the Wall?

Aemon pretty much begs Tyrion to intercede for that reason.

Also, did Rhaegar ever know his own mother was pregnant again?

In terms of planning to prophesy, in my reporter days, I had to interview former members of a cult, and prophesy played a big role. Within that role, they follow it to the letter, so Rhaegar naming his firstborn daughter "Rhaenys" rather than "Visenya," when it was Visenya who was the oldest seems an interesting deviation.

1- Well, who knows he didn't?

2- The Tyrion thing happened 10 years later

3- Most likely he found out about her pregnancy when seeing her after a year in the ToJ. If he had any sense in him, I believe he would feel guilty for not being around his mother when his father raped her.

By the way, is Dany a child of rape?

[IceFire125]

Interesting interview with Kit Harington from the leading Italian newspaper 'la Repubblica'. I'll translate a few passages, trying to stay as faithful to the text as I can:

Channeling Rhaegar? lol

Step-father???

Last BUT not least...

I have the feeling that in the course of the next season such a mystery [Jon's parentage] will be slowly unveiled.

That 'next' is subject to interpretation. My impression is they are talking about this season, the second part of the interview (the one including the spoiler tagged passage) being all about the upcoming season 5. Make of it what you will ;)

Update: Added the screenshots if you are unable to follow the link to the article.

Thanks for translating. Ohhhh Kit you so sneaky. ^_^

[Jon Weirgaryen]

By the way, is Dany a child of rape?

Why, yes.

[Alia of the knife]

1- Well, who knows he didn't?

2- The Tyrion thing happened 10 years later

3- Most likely he found out about her pregnancy when seeing her after a year in the ToJ. If he had any sense in him, I believe he would feel guilty for not being around his mother when his father raped her.

By the way, is Dany a child of rape?

Because it seems to me that Court being a very small world, and Rhaegar being a keen center of attention, someone might have noted his interests, or his concerns.

As I've said before,in real history young princes, especially young crown princes often took on "projects" they could/would be known for that brought them their own fame and heroism and if this prophesy was something that was his "thing," then it seems like the NW might be a place to focus his attentions.

But what we do hear of Rhaegar from the likes of Kevan is that he wanted sons, and if only he'd married Cersei, she could have given them to him, alluding then that all of the things that followed, specifically, taking/marrying Lyanna Stark wouldn't have happened.

I have a feeling that there will be some things that come to light regarding Rhaegars activities that makes these assumptions on obsession with prophesy even less the reason for his behavior as much the simple answer.

[Alia of the knife]

Unless he thought the births might be in a reverse order, not that anyone has ever spoken of this. I wonder how Jon Visenya Targaryen will take the news?

https://youtu.be/fg2eBYOHbCE

:)

[Avalatis]

Why would he make the Ice and Fire connection if he already thought Aegon was the promised prince? With a comet and everything. Everything (aside from Ice and Fire song which we don't even know what exactly is about) pointed to him.

And really, do we know what the song of ice and fire is? Could be that maybe it isn't about the Targaryen and Stark houses, but about the battle in the winter using the flaming sword (Jon dreamed that he was wielding a flaming sword on the Wall.) We associate with those two houses because it is the only things we know.

As we've seen from the comet in the books everyone takes a different meaning a way from it. It's an omen!

The Starks trace their lineage back to Brandon the Builder who built the wall of ice. Targaryens trace theirs to Valaria, Dragons. The Stark family sword is called Ice. The Pact of Ice and Fire.

The first impression from the book should leave you thinking it's Azor Ahai (fire) vs the others (ice). Unmaskedlurker is saying the song is more poetic then that. And no we don't know what the song is as it's only mentioned in that vision.

[Lord Varys]

I've been thinking about the prophecy/three-headed dragon stuff again.

What we know:

- Rhaegar once believed he was the promised prince, and eventually discarded that belief. Reason unknown.

- Rhaegar considered the (red?) comet that was seen over KL in the night of Aegon's conception a sign that this child may be the promised prince.

- This was only confirmed for him when the child in question turned out to be male - we know that both Rhaegar and Aemon (and anybody else looking for the savior) were convinced 'he' had to be male.

- Rhaegar believed that there had to be a third dragon head, and I guess he imagined that he would have to father that child, too, since his mother Rhaella would not be fertile much longer, nor would he have considered it likely that his father would actually bestir himself to father another child after Duskendale - I imagine the raping stuff was not all that well-known to him, if Aerys even did this kind of thing prior to the outbreak of the war.

What we don't know:

- That Rhaegar believed Rhaenys was a head of the dragon. That's just an assumption, and possibly wrong due to the fact that she was female. If Rhaegar did believe that the promised prince had to be male it is unlikely that he would have thought that the other dragon heads can be female. I think it is not unlikely that Rhaegar thought by the time of Aegon's birth that the other dragon head who had already been born was Viserys, not Rhaenys.

- That Rhaegar thought he had to/would conceive the promised prince prior to the comet sighting. He interpreted the comet as a sign, connected it to the prophecy, and draw a conclusion. That's all.

- That Rhaegar consciously tried to emulate/recreate Aegon and his sisters. If that had been the case he would have named his daughter Visenya, not Rhaenys. From TWoIaF we know that the name Visenya fell out of favor in Rhaenys/Aenys' line as Visenya possibly murdered Aenys I, making it unlikely that Rhaegar would name his daughter after her. The original Viserys - second son of Aenys - was apparently named after Visenya, but that was prior to Aenys' death. Later on a daughter of Jaehaerys I is named after Viserys but not as 'Visenya' but as 'Viserra'. The only other Visenya is Rhaenyra's stillborn daughter, and she is only posthumously named - most likely as express her determination to go to war over the succession. I doubt Rhaenyra would named her daughter Visenya had she lived (Aemma, after her mother, would have been much more likely, I think).

Speculation:

Rhaegar's 'the dragon has three heads' saying (prophecy stuff) and the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen (heraldry) are not directly interconnected. Rhaegar did not think prophecy dictated that he recreate Aegon and his sisters. But it is possible/likely that Aegon and his sisters styled themselves as 'the three-headed dragon'/chose that heraldic symbol because they knew about the promised prince prophecy and wanted to refer to it that way (or, in fact, believed, for a time that Aegon was the promised prince and his sisters the two other heads - they may not yet have believed that all dragon heads must be male).

[Alia of the knife]

On the issue of his possibly not considering that the heads would be female, then Kevans apparent knowledge of Rhaegar wanting SONS, would make sense, and mean that he would need another wife who could give him not one, but more SONS.

[Nami]

He never said Rhaegar wanted sons. He just said Cersei would give him sons.

[SFDanny]

Also, did Rhaegar ever know his own mother was pregnant again?

.

3- Most likely he found out about her pregnancy when seeing her after a year in the ToJ. If he had any sense in him, I believe he would feel guilty for not being around his mother when his father raped her.

By the way, is Dany a child of rape?

When Rhaella and Viserys leave King's Landing, after the the news of Rhaegar's death at the Trident reaches them, Daenerys is only a "quickening" in Rhaella's womb. So, no, Rhaegar doesn't know his mother is pregnant with Daenerys - it is likely not even Rhaella knows she is pregnant at the time of her departure. Daenerys is born nine months later.

We don't know if Rhaegar knows before he leaves for the Trident that his mother was raped by his father. If so, it gives even greater depth to the tragic scene Jaime recounts of his last encounter with Rhaegar. We do know Darry was in both scenes, so it is possible Rhaegar knows before he dies.

[Mithras]

I've been thinking about the prophecy/three-headed dragon stuff again.

What we know: ...

We also know that Rhaegar and Aemon communicated a lot about the prophecies.

We also know that the library of Castle Black has one of a kind books. Aemon took a chestful of books to bring to the Citadeli knowing that they lack these tomes.

We also know that Septon Barth referred to some books at the Wall while proposing his "queer" beliefs.

Speculation:

The Wall might have a surviving full copy of Barth's book because the law ends at the Wall and Baelor's decree might not have been carried out there. Considering that Aemon quoted Barth a lot, is the presence of rare books at the Wall one of the reasons why Aemon chose to go to the Wall?

[UnmaskedLurker]

On the issue of his possibly not considering that the heads would be female, then Kevans apparent knowledge of Rhaegar wanting SONS, would make sense, and mean that he would need another wife who could give him not one, but more SONS.

Except he says that there must be one more -- not two more. At the moment of the HotU vision, Rhaegar believes two of the three heads already exist. But while I believe it is clear that Rheagar thinks Rhaenys is the other head that already exists, if I am wrong about that, I highly doubt Rhaegar would think of Viserys as the second head. More likely, he might consider himself to be the second head. Even if he eliminated himself as TPTWP, he might still consider himself to be a head of the dragon. But I still think, in context. Rhaenys is by far the most likely candidate as the second head. Nevertheless, if cannot be an unborn son, as Rhaegar thinks that there only needs to be one more -- not two more.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But what the title really means is the not the same as the relevant question here -- what does Rhaegar thinks it means? At the time of the HotU vision, I have no idea what Rhaegar thinks it means -- and he probably does not know at that time. He is just quoting the prophecy. But when he later comes to realize that he will have a child with Lyanna Stark, I think he would find the Ice/Fire connection (supported by the knowledge of the Pact of Ice and Fire) too tempting not to conclude that if the song of TPTWP will be the song of ice and fire, a child by him and Lyanna would be ice and fire.

So to answer your first question -- why would Rhaegar change his mind? He already changed it once -- he used to think that he himself would be TPTWP. I think that information is a clue that Rhaegar is capable of changing his mind on this interpretation. What are the basic clues in the prophecy to identify who will be the promised prince? Smoke - salt -- burning star in the skies. I think that Rhaegar would have kept an open mind and looked for these clues with respect to his child with Lyanna. But he already thought that he himself met these clues -- but then changed his mind to Aegon. So Rhaegar already knew that smoke, salt and burning star might be "false clues" in the sense of appearing to point to a person who is not really TPTWP. In other words, the same question can be asked regarding why Rhaegar would ever consider Aegon if Rhaegar already met all the criteria himself. But we know he did change his mind at least that one time. The one thing, however, that would be unique to a son born to Rhaegar and Lyanna that neither Rhaegar nor Aegon possibly could have is to be the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified.

That Rhaegar changed his mind once does not mean that he changed it again... It shows that Rhaegar is not completely stuck in one belief, and is capable of adapting his believes when new information becomes available. Rhaegar fitted a few of the criteria of the promised prince.. Smoke and salt. Aegon fitted one more, the red comet. It isn´t that smoke and salt were false clues for Rhaegar himself.. As far as we know, the prophecy doesn´t state that all criteria need to be present at birth. When the red comet appeared the night of Aegons conception, and Aegon was born a male 9 months later, Rhaegar seems to have accepted that it was not him, but Aegon, who was the promised prince, because Aegon fitted more criteria than he himself did.

Rhaegar never met all the criteria, as far as we know... so the question "why would Rhaegar ever consider Aegon if Rhaegar himself met all the criteria" is one that doesn't even need to asked.. It was never the case.

Whatever the case, when Rhaegar left ToJ to return to KL, Lyanna was already pregnant, and I would assume that Rhaegar was already aware that she was pregnant... But other than a red comet, which hasn't been mentioned as having appeared at any time during the Rebellion, there couldn't possibly have been any signs already pointing to Lyanna's child being the Promised Prince.. Any child of Rhaegar's would have the blood of the dragon, be the child trueborn or bastard born, but there was no way that Rhaegar could have known months ahead that the child would be a boy, or under what circumstances the child would have been born (smoke and salt), or that there was a bleeding star in the sky, and that the dragons would return.

So could Rhaegar have changed his mind? Yes, of course... But if you ask me, that would only have been possible after Lyanna gave birth, and not before.

[Alia of the knife]

Except he says that there must be one more -- not two more. At the moment of the HotU vision, Rhaegar believes two of the three heads already exist. But while I believe it is clear that Rheagar thinks Rhaenys is the other head that already exists, if I am wrong about that, I highly doubt Rhaegar would think of Viserys as the second head. More likely, he might consider himself to be the second head. Even if he eliminated himself as TPTWP, he might still consider himself to be a head of the dragon. But I still think, in context. Rhaenys is by far the most likely candidate as the second head. Nevertheless, if cannot be an unborn son, as Rhaegar thinks that there only needs to be one more -- not two more.

But do we know that he is specifically referring to Rhaenys?

Aemon himself alludes to the fact that a princess had not been considered until Dany, so I would imagine that since Aemon and Rhaegar corresponded, that they were of a like mind on a prince.

He never said Rhaegar wanted sons. He just said Cersei would give him sons.

He says that if only Aerys had married Rhaegar to Cersei, she could have given him all the sons he wanted.

.