polishgenius Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Any show that makes a Community reference can't be considered grimdark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Yes. Seriously, it's not up to the standards of the best of the movie releases. It gets praised too highly because it's different and because it's grimdark. But objectively, it's not as well written, well produced, or as consistently well acted as the best movie releases. True... I adore this version of DD (even though sometimes it reminds me of Matrix) and Charlie Cox did an amazing job, but it would be too rich to say that it is the best out of the bunch. Out of TV bunch? Yeah. But, the entire universe? Nope. Cap 2 and Iron Man 1 are really great (as well as GotG and Avengers 1) But, then again, I consider Peggy Carter to be the most amazing human being in Marvel Universe so I am not claiming objective when it comes to both Carter and Murdock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I will never. What exactly constitutes 'grimdark' anyways? Does that really apply to Daredevil? I just think of unmitigated gruesome violence, rape, torture, and non-stop bleakness any time I see that word. You just described Miller's run on Daredevil which is what the TV show aspires to resemble more than any of the other runs. I'm fine throwing labels around as they are just easy ways of categorizing things - I'm more concerned with whether things are good or bad. Grimdark is just used because it allows someone to dismiss certain types of fiction by labelling it as such. If you like it you probably say "noir". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Well, the 'grimdark' label was a wee bit tongue in cheek, and I should say that I do really welcome the fact that they went in a darker direction with DD - it was absolutely the right thing to do, and gave the series a clear identity. But at the same time, it's always been the case that darker series tend to get a better critical reception purely because they are Serious Business. And it's my opinion that DD does take itself a bit too seriously at times. The 'levity' is not particularly prevalent, and not particularly well done IMO, for whatever reasons. (Not the fault of the actors, by and large, who do a decent job: it's just that it never seemed to 'click', for me.) I'm hoping that improves. I've said, many times, that the best moments of the series were the ones where it remembered that it was a comic book adaptation with crime drama influences, not the other way around. DD works well with a dose of grimness, yes, but he should also be fighting ninjas and mob bosses with gimmicks. As for 'objectively' - there are some things on which one can disagree. But I don't see any way to deny that there is an objective difference in production values between an HBO series and a Marvel film. The latter has higher production values, that's a given. I'll concede that my one criticism of the acting is subjective (I just didn't take to the actress portraying Karen Page at all). The only comparable criticism I'd have in the MCU is Natalie Portman, who is pretty wooden as Jane Foster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Any show that makes a Community reference can't be considered grimdark. That depends. In the Marvel universe, was the darkest timeline the actual timeline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyanidePie Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 For the most part Marvel does a great job of casting, but they also do this infuriating thing where they waste amazing talent by putting them in background or side character roles. There is no excuse for having Idras Elba playing Heimdall, or Natalie Portman playing Jane Foster, or Djimon Honsou Playing random Ronan lackey. I think Chadwick Boseman will be just fine, but Djimon Honsou was a no-brainer for T'Challa. Natalie Portman could have been any number of great female characters on the MCU, but instead they have her be this weird little girl version of Jane Foster with no personality save for swooning over Hunkmaster Flex. The same is now going for Tilda Swinton. Why is she being cast as The Ancient One? She could play so many more interesting characters, why does a white woman have to take over a role that should have went to an Asian man or woman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrddin Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I think Swinton will do great as the Ancient One. She'll bring a wonderfully weird immortal bearing to the character. As for Portman's boring Jane Foster, I'm convinced she's an average actress who can shine if she gets the right director. I've seen too many wooden performances from her to blame it all on the script. She was given plenty of opportunity to shine in Thor 2. And Djimon as T'Challa? I've been a fan of his for a long time (Amistad and Gladiator), but he's too old for Black Panther. He and Elba deserved larger roles, true. Elba does sell Heimdall well. Glad to have him even for a short period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 For the most part Marvel does a great job of casting, but they also do this infuriating thing where they waste amazing talent by putting them in background or side character roles. There is no excuse for having Idras Elba playing Heimdall, or Natalie Portman playing Jane Foster, or Djimon Honsou Playing random Ronan lackey. I think Chadwick Boseman will be just fine, but Djimon Honsou was a no-brainer for T'Challa. Natalie Portman could have been any number of great female characters on the MCU, but instead they have her be this weird little girl version of Jane Foster with no personality save for swooning over Hunkmaster Flex. The same is now going for Tilda Swinton. Why is she being cast as The Ancient One? She could play so many more interesting characters, why does a white woman have to take over a role that should have went to an Asian man or woman? Djimon Honsou is part 50, a little too old for T'challa (if they cast T'chaka, he'd be a good choice, though). As for the Ancient One, they feel people saying the role is racist if played by an Asian man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyanidePie Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Djimon Honsou is part 50, a little too old for T'challa (if they cast T'chaka, he'd be a good choice, though). As for the Ancient One, they feel people saying the role is racist if played by an Asian man. God I hate people. An Asian man (or woman) playing a Tibetan mystic in the mountains is the fucking least racist thing ever. Do Asian people not exist in Tibet? And I had no idea that Honsou was 51. He certainly doesn't look it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 For the most part Marvel does a great job of casting, but they also do this infuriating thing where they waste amazing talent by putting them in background or side character roles. By far the worst example was having Micheal K. Willams play "Harlem Bystander" in The Incredible Hulk. I mean he didn't even have lines in the final cut of the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 God I hate people. An Asian man (or woman) playing a Tibetan mystic in the mountains is the fucking least racist thing ever. Do Asian people not exist in Tibet? I'm afraid you might be missing the point here. The point is that the whole Dr Strange origin story is a product of its age (like the Iron Fist origin story), and is based on outdated cultural stereotypes and hoary (see what I did there?) orientalist narratives. The Ancient One, as originally depicted, is nothing but a cliched mysterious Oriental wise man who exists mainly to grant the (white, Western, male) hero exotic wisdom and power. If you play out the narrative that way, it comes off badly: as, well, what it is - an old white guy's idea of a 'Tibetan mystic' from fifty years ago. And yeah, that's unavoidably somewhat racist. From ignorance rather than malice, of course, but there's no excuse for that ignorance fifty years later. There are other and probably better ways to deal with that than whitewashing the role, of course, but that doesn't mean the 'racist' perception is without foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyanidePie Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 By far the worst example was having Micheal K. Willams play "Harlem Bystander" in The Incredible Hulk. I mean he didn't even have lines in the final cut of the movie. Holy shit I've seen that movie maybe twice and have never seen him in that. I really want him to play Blade if they ever decide to bring that character back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyanidePie Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I'm afraid you might be missing the point here. The point is that the whole Dr Strange origin story is a product of its age (like the Iron Fist origin story), and is based on outdated cultural stereotypes and hoary (see what I did there?) orientalist narratives. The Ancient One, as originally depicted, is nothing but a cliched mysterious Oriental wise man who exists mainly to grant the (white, Western, male) hero exotic wisdom and power. If you play out the narrative that way, it comes off badly: as, well, what it is - an old white guy's idea of a 'Tibetan mystic' from fifty years ago. And yeah, that's unavoidably somewhat racist. From ignorance rather than malice, of course, but there's no excuse for that ignorance fifty years later. There are other and probably better ways to deal with that than whitewashing the role, of course, but that doesn't mean the 'racist' perception is without foundation. The entirety of Asian culture and history is filled with mysticism and magic. History that they wrote themselves. Is it only racist because a white person is being taught these things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I am completely unfamiliar with these characters. But I have to ask: if the name "Ancient One" implies what I think it implies, i.e. a person who has lived an unnaturally long life, does it matter what race this person comes from? A person of this age could have traveled the world a hundred times over, accumulated a lot of knowledge, and adopted whatever culture he/she desired. (or perhaps even be at the origin of a culture) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 The entirety of Asian culture and history is filled with mysticism and magic. History that they wrote themselves. Is it only racist because a white person is being taught these things? Sorry, but you've missed the point entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 The entirety of Asian culture and history is filled with mysticism and magic. History that they wrote themselves. Is it only racist because a white person is being taught these things? But this sort of story is pretty stereotypical at this point. The whole Charlie Chan/Fu Manchu trope. I imagine it's mostly considered racist because it's typically written by a caucasian for a caucasian audience. The roles are filled out with your typical "Inscrutable Asian Men of Wisdom and Mystery" and Dragon Ladys and the like. I realize that Dr. Strange doesn't really fit that mold exactly, but The Ancient One character certainly does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 We should take this discussion to the appropriate thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 We should take this discussion to the appropriate thread. True. You do have a similar trope in Daredevil, only the blind sensei guy just happens to be white. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJ Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I don't think having asian actors in roles traditionally played by Asians is inherrrently racist. It is very stereo-typical and cliche, however. If it's a negative stereo-type, that's when it becomes racist. (And I do understand them wanting to avoid the cliche). I mean... you might as well say having a white guy playing the hero is racist against white people because those roles are always played by whites. (I think it's a stronger argument to say that it's racist against everyone else.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyanidePie Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Daredevil's new costume for Season 2 looks pretty awesome. I wish the red was actual red, but it's cool. Reminds me of the badass armored costume he had in the late 90's. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM0HbTAWUAAq877.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.