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'Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."'

-Ned

Ned is our bastion of goodness, he is the great guy that gets killed doing the right thing. This is the first POV. This is a basic moral compass of the text. Read that, look at the Dany scene, see how it is is the antithesis of all that Ned/The Starks represent. Yes, he mentions First Men blood but its basis is in morality and justice and that it is the RIGHT way. Ned even basically says his BFF Robert is wrong to have a headsman, but what they do is what they do and none of his concern.

Its like D&D decided to just do the opposite of this, like was done in the Joffrey scene. The setting even calls back to the Joffrey scene, in that it is an 'event', pre arranged with masses of crowds. And of course the riot from the early days of his reign too smushed in there. How you interpret it with Dany is up to you, there is a clear parallel. 'Fetch me a Block' is Jon going about things the Ned way and of course, he gets the infamous nod of approval. Does Jon get punished for killing Slynt in the text, no. He gets punished for breaking the Watch's rules and being too nice to wildings.

Look at the quote

Honestly, if you can't see a basic comparison I don't know how to discuss this further. I get it, you like Dany but this season is about her failures. If you try to discount them, you miss the whole point. Meereen does not go well.

There is a gargantuan difference between not going well, and comparing her to Joffrey.

Jon struggles to rule during ADWD too, but somehow I doubt you'll jump to comparing him to Joffrey. His people tried to kill him too. So again the only difference is swinging the sword himself? That's just stupid.

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It doesn't? The issue here is that producers wanted Arianne but they are ridiculously not casting her, for whatever reason they had. And now, we have some strange fusion of the character that makes no sense.

Why? Revenge for a loved one is one of the most simple motivations in storytelling. Everyone understands it, nothing to explain there.

Complicated intrigues and politics? Not so much.

Does it go against what Oberyn would have wanted? Sure, but Ellaria is not an extension of Oberyn. She's her own character, one who never struck me as peaceful in season 4. She can have her own opinions.

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is Qyburn trying to create his own version of Zombies somehow??...lol..


At this rate,the final war will be between the whitewalkers on the one hand and Zombies led by Qyburn on the other


with Bran looking at all the action from his treepost!!


rofl...

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Ned is our bastion of goodness, he is the great guy that gets killed doing the right thing. This is the first POV. This is a basic moral compass of the text. Read that, look at the Dany scene, see how it is is the antithesis of all that Ned/The Starks represent. Yes, he mentions First Men blood but its basis is in morality and justice and that it is the RIGHT way. Ned even basically says his BFF Robert is wrong to have a headsman, but what they do is what they do and none of his concern.

Its like D&D decided to just do the opposite of this, like was done in the Joffrey scene. The setting even calls back to the Joffrey scene, in that it is an 'event', pre arranged with masses of crowds. And of course the riot from the early days of his reign too smushed in there. How you interpret it with Dany is up to you, there is a clear parallel. 'Fetch me a Block' is Jon going about things the Ned way and of course, he gets the infamous nod of approval. Does Jon get punished for killing Slynt in the text, no. He gets punished for breaking the Watch's rules and being too nice to wildings.

If that is the basic moral compass of the series, we would never get the POV of the other side. This is rather narrow-minded view of how things work in ASOIAF. What Ned was saying shouldn't be taking as gospel.

It is not like Joffrey scene and comparison could not be worse. If you compared to the Robb and Karstark, that one I could understand, but you are focusing on the make up here, instead of interior side of this. You are basically missing the forest for the tree. This is not about whether Dany did it on her own or she didn't, it is about punishing disobedience which is far more important and far greater parallel with the "Fetch me a block" than it is with the travesty of justice. This wasn't Dany's failing, even though she is not the most popular person now in Meereen. Thing is that she actually did the right thing. But, she was in situation where the right thing might not be the best thing to do.

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Why? Revenge for a loved one is one of the most simple motivations in storytelling. Everyone understands it, nothing to explain there.

Complicated intrigues and politics? Not so much.

Does it go against what Oberyn would have wanted? Sure, but Ellaria is not an extension of Oberyn. She's her own character, one who never struck me as peaceful in season 4. She can have her own opinions.

Well, even if I would focus solely on Season 4 Ellaria, she would have stuck me as peaceful. Her first scene was calming Oberyn down because he heard "Rains of Castamere" and only when they were insulted, Oberyn lashed out. She was there when Oberyn made the clear difference between Lannisters and Dornish. Her last goodbye was that she is a peaceful person living in the harsh person. Ellaria was Ellaria in Season 4. In Season 5, due to lack of Arianne, they had to infuse it. Now, even if it is just that, it was done horribly. Because even Arianne was not solely about justice. And if she is vengeful monster, why do we have three Sand Snakes? She basically makes them redundant.

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The problem with Dany is simply that she's a foreigner in a foreign land with foreign customs. She's like the British colonising India then complaining about the culture. Her attitude is very colonialist. She doesn't belong there. She would be a great ruler, in Westeros.



I imagine Stannis would have the exact same problem if he becomes king and starts forcing people to worship R'Hllor.


Edited by jbob

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There is a gargantuan difference between not going well, and comparing her to Joffrey.

Jon struggles to rule during ADWD too, but somehow I doubt you'll jump to comparing him to Joffrey. His people tried to kill him too. So again the only difference is swinging the sword himself? That's just stupid.

Like I said, I'm not saying she is killing prostitutes and cutting cats open. But there is a definite comparison to be made between Joffrey's early failures and this scene showing Dany's early failures. I'm not comparing personalities but the success of their rulership. I could easily say Lannister and not Joffrey but its basically the same thing. They took two quick examples of the early hatred of the Lannister regime in series one and two to draw comparisons. Therefore in turn comparing what we are shown as 'good ruling', Ned Stark. The reasons why they get in to the messes they do are very different, the effect is the same. These are just quick visual callbacks. Elio said in a recent video that Dany in A Dance with Dragons was meant to parallel with Cersei but that GRRM didn't think it worked out. Comparing her to the Lannister rule in general could be a quick way for D&D to align the two.

If that is the basic moral compass of the series, we would never get the POV of the other side. This is rather narrow-minded view of how things work in ASOIAF. What Ned was saying shouldn't be taking as gospel.

It is not like Joffrey scene and comparison could not be worse. If you compared to the Robb and Karstark, that one I could understand, but you are focusing on the make up here, instead of interior side of this. You are basically missing the forest for the tree. This is not about whether Dany did it on her own or she didn't, it is about punishing disobedience which is far more important and far greater parallel with the "Fetch me a block" than it is with the travesty of justice. This wasn't Dany's failing, even though she is not the most popular person now in Meereen. Thing is that she actually did the right thing. But, she was in situation where the right thing might not be the best thing to do.

Ned is as close as you get, he is the 'good man that died for it'. Its by him we judge others.

It is like the Joffrey scene, you just don't like the inference you think it makes on Dany. I do agree that there is a comparison also to be made with Robb and Karstark, he lost a lot of his men for what he did but it was only the Karstarks that he actually lost (and even then in the books Alys is still loyal because of Ned's morality and justice). His forces were more than House Karstark. Robb's big mistake was breaking his word

People do know she does worse in the books than this right, like those girls getting tortured at her command? I really couldn't abide it if we had to spend 9 weeks of people explaining how its 'not really her fault' the more she mucks up.

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

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There is a gargantuan difference between not going well, and comparing her to Joffrey.

Jon struggles to rule during ADWD too, but somehow I doubt you'll jump to comparing him to Joffrey. His people tried to kill him too. So again the only difference is swinging the sword himself? That's just stupid.

Pretty much thins.

Throughout ADWD Dany and Jon's leadership positions are being compared and contrasted. It so happens that they make many of the same mistakes. To compare the scene with Joffrey is asinine. D&D when discussing the episode talked about the difficulty of ruleship in comparison to conquering. And how Dany had to learn that she could not please everyone. Nowhere was a comparison to Joffrey intended. That's just hyperbole.

If that is the basic moral compass of the series, we would never get the POV of the other side. This is rather narrow-minded view of how things work in ASOIAF. What Ned was saying shouldn't be taking as gospel.

It is not like Joffrey scene and comparison could not be worse. If you compared to the Robb and Karstark, that one I could understand, but you are focusing on the make up here, instead of interior side of this. You are basically missing the forest for the tree. This is not about whether Dany did it on her own or she didn't, it is about punishing disobedience which is far more important and far greater parallel with the "Fetch me a block" than it is with the travesty of justice. This wasn't Dany's failing, even though she is not the most popular person now in Meereen. Thing is that she actually did the right thing. But, she was in situation where the right thing might not be the best thing to do.

Agree completely with this.

Like I said, I'm not saying she is killing prostitutes and cutting cats open. But there is a definite comparison to be made between Joffrey's early failures and this scene showing Dany's early failures. I'm not comparing personalities but the success of their rulership. I could easily say Lannister and not Joffrey but its basically the same thing. They took two quick examples of the early hatred of the Lannister regime in series one and two to draw comparisons. Therefore in turn comparing what we are shown as 'good ruling', Ned Stark. The reasons why they get in to the messes they do are very different, the effect is the same. These are just quick visual callbacks. Elio said in a recent video that Dany in A Dance with Dragons was meant to parallel with Cersei but that GRRM didn't think it worked out. Comparing her to the Lannister rule in general could be a quick way for D&D to align the two.

Ned is as close as you get, he is the 'good man that died for it'. Its by him we judge others.

It is like the Joffrey scene, you just don't like the inference you think it makes on Dany. I do agree that there is a comparison also to be made with Robb and Karstark, he lost a lot of his men for what he did but it was only the Karstarks that he actually lost (and even then in the books Alys is still loyal because of Ned's morality and justice). His forces were more than House Karstark. Robb's big mistake was breaking his word

As usual you have missed the point.

The comparison with Cersei is the absolute irony that Cersei is more like Dany's father than Dany herself. That Cersei will turn out to be the Mad Queen not Dany, that's where the comparison lies.

Please go watch the Inside the Episode bit, D&D make no such comparisons to Joffrey. That's purely on you and your absurd hatred of Dany.

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Pretty much thins.

Throughout ADWD Dany and Jon's leadership positions are being compared and contrasted. It so happens that they make many of the same mistakes. To compare the scene with Joffrey is asinine. D&D when discussing the episode talked about the difficulty of ruleship in comparison to conquering. And how Dany had to learn that she could not please everyone. Nowhere was a comparison to Joffrey intended. That's just hyperbole.

Agree completely with this.

As usual you have missed the point.

The comparison with Cersei is the absolute irony that Cersei is more like Dany's father than Dany herself. That Cersei will turn out to be the Mad Queen not Dany, that's where the comparison lies.

Please go watch the Inside the Episode bit, D&D make no such comparisons to Joffrey. That's purely on you and your absurd hatred of Dany.

Note how Cersei and Dany both end their time in AFFC/ADWD. Come back and tell me that they are not intertwined more significantly. Cersei is off her rocker, Dany fears going mad that is true but both are making a mess of power and end up in the dirt.

Do you need people to spell out the episode for you rather than using your own critical abilities?

I don't care about Dany enough to hate her, much like Missendei, I'm quite apathetic about them.

I'm all for discussion, but if you are going to be rude, I will be rude to you.

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Note how Cersei and Dany both end their time in AFFC/ADWD. Come back and tell me that they are not intertwined more significantly. Cersei is off her rocker, Dany fears going mad that is true but both are making a mess of power and end up in the dirt.

Do you need people to spell out the episode for you rather than using your own critical abilities?

I don't care about Dany enough to hate her, much like Missendei, I'm quite apathetic about them.

I'm all for discussion, but if you are going to be rude, I will be rude to you.

It's not rude to state facts, you do realize that, right?

If you are inferring things from a scene that no one else has inferred and the creators of scene did not infer then you should wonder why have you come up with such a nonsensical comparison. You obviously do care a great deal about Dany's character as you seem to want to discuss her quite often. Your obvious dislike for the character shows when you come up with ridiculous comparisons.

It's also clear that the comparison between Cersei and Dany is that one is going mad (Cersei) and the other one is not (Dany) and that's the irony.

Further, the leadership portion of Dany's ADWD arc the parallel lies with Jon not Cersei. I would recommend you read the excelled series of thread entitle Learning to Lead.

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In medieval times, almost everyone drank ale, even children. It was actually safer and healthier than the dirty water that was available. Brewing ale involved boiling the water, which killed the harmful bacteria in the water, though people of the time obviously didn't know this. Germ theory was still several centuries away.

Thanks for the history lesson. Perhaps you should share it with Sansa since it was her first time drinking it which she comments on. :rolleyes:

LF told Sansa his marriage proposal was accepted and Sansa just replied something about Lysa. Yikes girl.

In all fairness, I'm not sure why she should assume anything else. LF hasn't mentioned anything to her about marrying anyone and she's still married to Tyrion.

Yes, that's why Jaime took his castle away by marrying Lollys off. If he wants a bigger castle, he's got to make sure Jaime comes back alive. Unless the Prince of Dorne offers him a bigger one... How big a castle will Bronn end up with by the time the series is over: Casterly Rock?

:lmao: :lmao:

There were those who rightly predicted that the show would use an already cast actor for the character of the 'Kindly Man' , who in the books never has a name.

So indeed (as we knew by now)Tom Wlaschiha is back.

(I wonder about those who think the show would cast someone else?)

I am glad to see Wlaschiha he not only has a charismatic face but comes across as an exotic.

A fine actor with a finely balanced mode of delivery , his German accent is just the spin needed for a guild of the otherworldly.

I agree, Wlaschiha is excellent in the role just as he was as Jaquen. I'm definitely going to enjoy his scenes.

The mystery continues.

Emilia except for season 1 and a few sequences since, is best when speaking Valyrian!

(I am guessing this is High Valyrian and not Meereenise Valyrian.)

Fine projection , inflection and body language, speaking something totally different than English, it's weird.

I was surprised at the length of the Valyrian dialog in this episode, I love it. Not sure how many do since I hear people dislike reading subtitles.

I hope this is not the last , the Valyrian speaking sort of trailed off in season 4.

I agree Dany is great when she's speaking Valaryian and I kept wondering why the slave sounded so different but the same without ever considering a different accent. Thanks!

If that is the basic moral compass of the series, we would never get the POV of the other side. This is rather narrow-minded view of how things work in ASOIAF. What Ned was saying shouldn't be taking as gospel.

No one is suggesting Ned's words become the basis of the new religion of Westeros and all agree Ned made mistakes but Martin does seem to be suggesting that Ned is the example of morals in Westeros precisely because we get other POVs.

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Is it just me or did the Harpy die this episode. The guy who was hiding in the wall. I would say yes since it doesn't even seem like we'll get the GG.


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Is it just me or did the Harpy die this episode. The guy who was hiding in the wall. I would say yes since it doesn't even seem like we'll get the GG.

The trailer for this season showed multiple Harpies in masks closing in on Dany in the pit, so it obviously isn't just one. :lol:

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What extenuating circumstances are there when you unapologetically murder someone who is being held in custody?

If that someone is a murderer himself for example. More importantly during a civil war is much better to execute people who want to kill you instead of people who are killing for you, so that was spectaculy stupid from Dany (as it was from Robb in the season 3, but even more so since "the victim" here was not innocent ).

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The trailer for this season showed multiple Harpies in masks closing in on Dany in the pit, so it obviously isn't just one. :lol:

I suppose it's just me then. They seemed to make such a huge deal out of that guy.

Anyway, it was a dream I was hoping was true. :frown5:

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TBH, I didn't see that the whole scene with Dany's executing the ex-slave who took matters into his own hands was at all crucial to this season, unless to show that Dany is "losing" Meereen on all sides. One of the parts that I really liked was when Ser Baristan talked to Dany about how Aerys lost the people's support. I was happy to see that she took that into consideration rather than stubbornly insisting on what her initial impulse had been. In her decision regarding the execution, though, I felt she reverted right back to the kind of decision that Aerys would have made. I'll probably get jumped on for saying this, but I thought it a waste of screen time. Numerous other character arcs, IMO, were more significant in the overall action of Feast/Dance at this point. Admittedly, I'm not a Dany fan, but I have very much liked how she and Meereen were handled up to this point. I did love the Drogon scene, and I thought that was a beautiful way to show the human side of Dany and how difficult and lonely leadership can be.



Looking at the episode as a whole, I thought it was pretty good, with a couple of other exceptions, primarily the Brienne/Pod scenes and perhaps the brevity [i.e., choppiness] of the Tyrion/Varys scene. I was also disappointed that there wasn't more time spend on Arya, given the ep title. Did love it when we actually got Jaqen, though, rather than just his voice as The Kindly Old Man.

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Hmmm. Think the new Brienne/Pod plot and the Jaime/Dorne material is maybe starting to make the people who championed Stoneheart + Riverlands feel a little better. Erm ... because that plot WAS better. Still can't believe it's all been cut. Was a fan of most of the book changes until the end of season 4.



Dorne was hugely disappointing, imo, especially Ellaria having apparently morphed into a cartoon villain with different (or more exaggerated?) accent. Vengeance for what? For trial by combat Oberyn volunteered himself for? Awful scripting.



HOB&W ... hmmmm. Big old block of CG on the horizon looked a bit conspicuous.



Liked the election scene but as some have already noted it really needed more emotional resonance at conclusion like we got with Robb being chosen as King in The North - perhaps the Stark theme soaring to crescendo with Jon briefly thinking back to the last time he rode away from Ned en route to The Wall, for example:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diZPm20DdLM



Would've cost nothing to bolt onto the end of that scene in post but given it so much more power.



Also, whilst I applaud them trying to get a few more "emoting" facial expressions out of Drogon in the final scene, the end result was some of the worst dragon cg on the show to date and at best, a throwback to Dragonheart.




7/10.

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Hello again all! Here's why this weeks episode sucked:

-Jaime's Dorne mission makes no sense. If you want Mycrella back, write that you want her back or at least send your own men to protect her in Dorne (which is what Cersei does in the books because she's not retarded). What does Jaime hope to accomplish exactly? They'll either say yes or no, and a Lannister traveling there right after Oberyn's death is even more retarded. Plus Jaime never gave a crap about Cersei's kids in the books and doesn't consider them his own because he never raised them.

-Mace Tyrell as Master of Ships. Is it really that hard to include Paxter Redwyne when you introduce all these fucking stupid show-only characters? What does Mace know about ships anyway? Highgarden is fucking landlocked. Oh and he's also Master of Coin you say? How the fuck is somebody supposed to do both of these jobs at once? D&D are scared of book characters apparently, maybe they take away from their brilliant show-creations like Ramsay's annoying out of place girlfriend

-Qyburn as Hand of the King. A deranged disgraced Maester as Hand? Not even book Cersei is this stupid. It's tantamount to when Aerys made Rosart his Hand.

-"Master of War". Oh gee, D&D made up a new Small Council position. Treating it like it's a fucking defense ministry instead of a feudal army system.

All make prefect sense. Cersei is incompetent.

She isn't trying to rescue her daughter, she is trying to give herself a free hand to settle scores and murder Margaery.

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The problem with Dany is simply that she's a foreigner in a foreign land with foreign customs. She's like the British colonising India then complaining about the culture. Her attitude is very colonialist. She doesn't belong there. She would be a great ruler, in Westeros.

I imagine Stannis would have the exact same problem if he becomes king and starts forcing people to worship R'Hllor.

It wouldn't be any different in Westeros. She didn't grow up there, either...nor is she familiar with the laws and customs (other than vicariously, which is never the same thing).

Every leader faces impossible decisions. There are no right and wrong choices...sometimes, just bad and worse.

The real problem is that Dany took the city by force by having the slaves revolt against the leaders- without having any plans for how to restore the government once it fell. Now she's struggling to strike a balance. You can't tell the slaves "Rise up against your Masters and I will free you!" and then execute a former slave for killing a man working for those Masters without alienating the people who put you in power in the first place. Just like Robb, she chose the "lawful" path, but also the path that costs her the most.

She's not politically minded, and neither is her small council. She needs an advisor who is...Selmy is a great KG, but he doesn't know how to spin things the way that someone like Tyrion does. Guess we'll see what comes of that in the future.

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