[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion

[Ninerings]

25 minutes ago, teemo said:

I believe that shows who embrace and revel in their shittiness are better than shows that are terribly pretentious and desecrate their source material, when their show is nonsensical, gratuitous, and poorly written.  At least a show like Grey's Anatomy knows it's shit, and doesn't have its showrunners sitting around in an "Inside the Episode" talking about how the moving of a chair has great symbolic value and depth.

I wish there was a "snap" button like on my favorite hockey site.

[Xcorpyo001]

33 minutes ago, teemo said:

I believe that shows who embrace and revel in their shittiness are better than shows that are terribly pretentious and desecrate their source material, when their show is nonsensical, gratuitous, and poorly written.  At least a show like Grey's Anatomy knows it's shit, and doesn't have its showrunners sitting around in an "Inside the Episode" talking about how the moving of a chair has great symbolic value and depth.  

Yeah, comparing Grey’s anatomy with Game of Thrones.

All the producers need to do for GA is buy some medical stuff from E-bay, some white robes, throw them in a room and start filming.

GoT people have to make almost everything from scratch. Costumes and weapons created to closely resemble the ones in the books, awesome CGI, practical effects, filming on locations in several countries, etc.

Don’t compare a scene in which Meredith Grey is talking to her current shrink inside an office with Hardhome for example. The amount of time and effort put in one scene in GoT is bigger than two seasons of GA. Yes, they had to cut corners to make it happen due to budgetary and time restrains, but it’s still better than other shows out there.

And the actors. Some might give subpar performances, but over the years the show had an army of actors giving us magnificent scenes.

Yes, the last season(s) are starting to be on the off side, but it’s still quality entertainment, and some of the flack the show is getting now might be put at GRRM’s feet for dropping the ball when he couldn’t deliver new material on time. It’s clear by now that D&D can’t make stuff that is on par with Martin’s work.

I stopped watching GA several seasons ago. It got to damn repetitive and boring. Same for the Walking Dead. Stopped watching that one season and half ago. Half the show you listed are way under the quality of GoT, and although I watch some of them, you should wait and see if the quality holds once they advance several seasons. If they get that far.

As to the way I see the Game of Thrones show, part of me wishes that I wasn’t a book reader. If I didn’t know how much they removed/changed, I think I could like the show a little better.

Also, if I could disengage the analytic part of my brain, and not ask myself questions like why, how, when or WHY? while watching every scene, and judge it only by  its entertainment value, I could enjoy it a little more.

But it is as it is. As I said before, a bad GoT episode is better than 90% of what’s on the air at this time. And there are millions of people who seem to agree with this statement every week while the show airs.

[Darkstream]

8 minutes ago, Ninerings said:

I wish there was a "snap" button like on my favorite hockey site.

Habs fan? 

[The Bear]

I didn't mind the episode too much. I had some strong reactions to a couple of things but I was surprised by how okay I was with it overall.

My biggest issue was with Jon abandoning the Night's Watch.

1) There is a strict process whereby the Lord Commander is chosen. Jon can't just bestow the title on his chosen successor. The LC usually grooms someone for the position, but there's always an election.

2) Jon is putting Ed and co in massive danger by abandoning them. Thorne convinced pretty much everyone that Jon was an oath breaker. They were poised to kill the group of Jon loyalists when Jon came out alive. The NW saw that small group as dangerous traitors, and now Jon's leaving them alone and massively outnumbered.
It's not like Ed being LC affords him and the other Jon loyalists any safety, since this is a group of men who have turned on and killed their previous two Lord Commanders. They're vastly outnumbered and it would be simple for a band of Thorne loyalists to decide they would be justified in purging Jon's friends. Realistically this won't happen because it's a TV show and Ed being LC is just a plot device, but it seems like a singularly dumb and selfish thing for Jon to do.

 

I was also kind of skeptical of Shaggydog being killed because he was so violent, but I suppose that Shaggy never seemed to be as clever as the other direwolves and just ran on pure aggression rather than having any cunning. If you just unthinkingly attack it's a lot easier to be taken down by a thinking opponent. I get why they made the Umbers turn on the Starks for storyline purposes (they didn't want to introduce yet another Northern house so they just went with one the audience would be familiar with), but it still irritated me. I wish they'd done what the books did with the Umbers having to play nice with the Boltons because the Greatjon was captive.

[ramla]

Well, at the very least, the worse the TV show gets the more separation from the books, it will have. 

First, The Umbers gifting Rickon and Osha and cutting the head off of Shaggydog, is just about red wedding level and astronomically preposterous. I mean even in the show. In the show they tried to run with that theme a bit that the North will Remember... Yet, How long did the Umbers have Rickon yet did nothing!? YOU HAVE RICKON! STARK! like... It had to have been b4 Jon was so-called letting wildlings in! The Ramsey's were not loved. They didn't love Roose. Yet they are all down to swear loyalty to Ramsey!? Even knowing he's a Kinslayer one of the most wretched act in the realm!? Like this is horrid writing. And just D&D picking and choosing what they want to use from a far superior work.

Also, how do they know so much about whats happening at the wall!? How do they know Jon is coming to Winterfell!? What did Jon tweet his plans or something!? And I am not sure he has even planned that at all too this point. 

Why would the Umbers betray the Starks in that way!? Jon is a Bastard. Rickon is a child... There's no logic there. 

Kings landing... So now qyburnhas Varys's little birds..... Children he kept secret. Deadly children... He bribes with candy. "sigh". Secret children that now, everybody knows about. Silly too me. Also, Jamies character arch seems to have been brought back to the beginning. Like who needs character development. Just have him follow Cersie around as she barges into the small council to try and demand a seat. And re-enter Sir Kevan, hand of the King... brought back so that qyburn can do his best Varys impersonation. Birds + Kevan =....

Arya.... Its sad that, they cut the Warging out of the show... It would really make her parts interesting, and its such an important part of Georges story... but u know they could give a ___ About that...

Lastly the Tower of Joy. I didn't expect them to show the whole thing. i knew it would be something they could use to string folks along and boost further viewership. But the duel wielding sword of the Morning was just stupid. And Dawn just looked corny. Why oh why would you not give him a more accurate portrayal of this legendary sword!? You just paint a sun on the pommel!? Also, Ned should have had Ice. Like his father and brother are dead. he should have the sword. maybe i'm wrong but Ice should have been there along with Dawn. Howland Stabbing Sir Arthur Dayne in the neck was par for the course as what was the use of fighting 7 against 2 if you didn't plan on stabbing them from any angle. 

This show has been a wreck for a while now. But the further from the books the less sense it makes.  

 

[teemo]

51 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

But it is as it is. As I said before, a bad GoT episode is better than 90% of what’s on the air at this time. And there are millions of people who seem to agree with this statement every week while the show airs.

 

 

Yeah, because what millions of Americans consider to be good television makes it so....let's just look at the top-rated shows in America right now, shall we?  We have Game of Thrones, Fear The Walking Dead, Empire, The Big Bang Theory, The Voice, Survivor, Grey's Anatomy, NCIS, and 2 Broke Girls.  Obviously then, what's popular doesn't necessarily make it good.

I am just extremely turned off by shows that are pretentious without much merit.  Sure, if you're David Chase, be pretentious, you deserve it. D&D don't.  It doesn't matter to me if the costumes are made from scratch and the budget is bigger, that is not the definition of a good show.  Rectify has a very small budget in comparison to GoT and it is a much better show than it will ever be.  

[Crixus]

For me, it's the story and characters far more than sets and costumes. One reason why I love plays so much. 

To each their own. 

And I agree with @teemo: shows like Grey's Anatomy don't pretend to be something they're not. GoT, otoh, is milking the 'prestige' label for all its worth--undeservedly in my view. 

[sandpiper]

whew. What a load of vitriol. Does no one get it?

Martin reckoned his series was unfilmable. Why? What was unfilmable about the story up to now? Why is everyone slagging off how the showrunners have changed the story and now everyone hates it, instead of asuming they have done what they promised and faithfully followed Martin's story? If everyone stops complaining about changes and instead accepts that the show is true to the original, we now know why Martin could not publish the next book last year. It would have utterly spoiled the storyline now. Everyone here bitching about how they do not like the way it is going would have known before watching that this was the case.

Does no one remember Daeny's vision of the throne room in ruins? That is what is coming. and everything it implies about the rest of the whole of Westeros. We are at the point in the story which was intended as book three of a trilogy. The story changes at this point. It started out as a joly tale of gallantry and fighting for just causes. The audience liked that. As it has gone along it has got darker and darker. Characters die all the time. Why would that style change: instead of killing them off, now we get to the reveals about how the ones we believed were heroes never were. That is why it is unfilmable. It is a dystopia. A train wreck. The plot is, everyone dies, everything destroyed, waste, slaughter, misery. 

Yes, the stark family will be the heroes. Jon Snow is a changed character because he is maybe finally rid of his upbringing to chivalry and honour. This was his rebirth. I don't know how much maester Aemon Targaryen knew beforehand about prophecies and the realities of this worlds politics, but it was a lot. Snow will redeem the mess his (not) father made of the family honour. Ned's whole life as presented to us was a lie, his penance for what he did in his youth. Killing the kingsguards who were only doing their duty, fighting in an evil cause, culminating in Dane stabbed in the back. Then lying about it all. In the books this was drip fed to us more. Bran will reveal the truth about what happened in the TOJ, which will not be as we thought. In the series the scene is also split, starting now to undermine the character of Ned and concluding it later. All the complaints above about young Ned misrepresenting him - No - I reckon that is spot on with the books and what Martin intended from the outset.

The book will have a bitter sweet ending. Something will be rescued from the ruin of the world. But right now we are still spiraling downwards into more and more depravity. Tywin was a right bastard (metaphorically), but at least he had a logical aim. Roose similarly. Now the utterly insane Ramsey is in charge. Ditto Cersei. Ditto some religious fanatic. Tommen is currently subject to the machinations of his mother on one side and the church on the other. A pretty lethal combination, so he isnt going to last long as the one shining hope for the kingdom.

And just as this awfulness seemingly could get no worse, we shall have the white walkers invading what is left of the kingdom. Remember them? The one real threat to the kingdom, which has utterly destroyed its own ability to resist them? Winter is coming: all the supplies stored up for it are gone.

This story is loosely based onthe  history of England, the wars of the roses. factions fighting, history rewritten by the victors.Luckily we never had to contend with anything nastier than the Scots invading south of the border.

[Xcorpyo001]

13 minutes ago, teemo said:

Yeah, because what millions of Americans consider to be good television makes it so....let's just look at the top-rated shows in America right now, shall we?  We have Game of Thrones, Fear The Walking Dead, Empire, The Big Bang Theory, The Voice, Survivor, Grey's Anatomy, NCIS, and 2 Broke Girls.  Obviously then, what's popular doesn't necessarily make it good.

I am just extremely turned off by shows that are pretentious without much merit.  Sure, if you're David Chase, be pretentious, you deserve it. D&D don't.  It doesn't matter to me if the costumes are made from scratch and the budget is bigger, than is not the definition of a good show.  

 

Yeah, I know that this sort of success is a double edged sword. They know that the show has such a momentum, that people will keep watching it no matter what happens, and they sort of…stopped trying to improve themselves.

Also, they noticed that they get most of they acclaim and nominalization are for directors, camera crews, editing, CGI, the visuals as a whole, so they doubled down on those aspects rather than keeping the acting and story up to snuff.

The fact that the writers don’t seem to keep with the characterization of some characters from the earlier seasons doesn’t bode well for the future of the show. And the different directors are mudding up the filming even more. Some have their own vision of how the characters would act, and we see the difference in filming and characterization from episode to episode.

I’m afraid that once the hype is over, soon after the end of the show, everybody will take a step back and start analyzing it more deeply. And once the shiny stuff is out of the way, what remains is not up to par.

So I agree with you on this issue, it could be a lot better. They have a huge opportunity to create something epic, but with the way things are progressing now, the story and some of the acting is way below the level it should be, compared with the other parts of the show.

[House Cambodia]

Sandpiper ^     -   I like it, I like it a lot.

[House Cambodia]

41 minutes ago, The Bear said:

I didn't mind the episode too much. I had some strong reactions to a couple of things but I was surprised by how okay I was with it overall.

My biggest issue was with Jon abandoning the Night's Watch.

1) There is a strict process whereby the Lord Commander is chosen. Jon can't just bestow the title on his chosen successor. The LC usually grooms someone for the position, but there's always an election.

2) Jon is putting Ed and co in massive danger by abandoning them.

1) I didn't see it as Jon handing over full command. As when Mormont was killed, there was an interim commander (Thorne) before elections were held - as deputy commander, Edd has to now be the interim commander.

2) True, IF Jon is abandoning the NW. I doubt that he is. Presumably the next LC and the remnants of the NW will be loyal to Jon, understanding that (a) unity with the massively outnumbering Wildings depends on his authority, and (b) recognition that Jon understands the WW far better than anyone else.  Rather, I see Jon as a warlord uniting anti-Bolton forces in the North in order to bring strength and unity to the North in order to face the WW.

[The Bear]

10 minutes ago, ramla said:

Well, at the very least, the worse the TV show gets the more separation from the books, it will have. 

First, The Umbers gifting Rickon and Osha and cutting the head off of Shaggydog, is just about red wedding level and astronomically preposterous. I mean even in the show. In the show they tried to run with that theme a bit that the North will Remember... Yet, How long did the Umbers have Rickon yet did nothing!? YOU HAVE RICKON! STARK! like... It had to have been b4 Jon was so-called letting wildlings in! The Ramsey's were not loved. They didn't love Roose. Yet they are all down to swear loyalty to Ramsey!? Even knowing he's a Kinslayer one of the most wretched act in the realm!? Like this is horrid writing. And just D&D picking and choosing what they want to use from a far superior work.

Also, how do they know so much about whats happening at the wall!? How do they know Jon is coming to Winterfell!? What did Jon tweet his plans or something!? And I am not sure he has even planned that at all too this point. 

Why would the Umbers betray the Starks in that way!? Jon is a Bastard. Rickon is a child... There's no logic there. 

Kings landing... So now qyburnhas Varys's little birds..... Children he kept secret. Deadly children... He bribes with candy. "sigh". Secret children that now, everybody knows about. Silly too me. Also, Jamies character arch seems to have been brought back to the beginning. Like who needs character development. Just have him follow Cersie around as she barges into the small council to try and demand a seat. And re-enter Sir Kevan, hand of the King... brought back so that qyburn can do his best Varys impersonation. Birds + Kevan =....

Arya.... Its sad that, they cut the Warging out of the show... It would really make her parts interesting, and its such an important part of Georges story... but u know they could give a ___ About that...

Lastly the Tower of Joy. I didn't expect them to show the whole thing. i knew it would be something they could use to string folks along and boost further viewership. But the duel wielding sword of the Morning was just stupid. And Dawn just looked corny. Why oh why would you not give him a more accurate portrayal of this legendary sword!? You just paint a sun on the pommel!? Also, Ned should have had Ice. Like his father and brother are dead. he should have the sword. maybe i'm wrong but Ice should have been there along with Dawn. Howland Stabbing Sir Arthur Dayne in the neck was par for the course as what was the use of fighting 7 against 2 if you didn't plan on stabbing them from any angle. 

This show has been a wreck for a while now. But the further from the books the less sense it makes.  

 

You just reminded me of the other issues I had with the show!

I still can't believe how they've basically made Jaime go backwards and become the same person he was prior to losing his hand. Jaime is one of my favourite characters in the books because I find his arc so compelling. His ignoring Cersei's letter was such a moment of liberation for his character and a distinct turning point. In the show Jaime continues to be Cersei's lapdog, undoing all the work they did in season 3 when it seemed like his character was actually developing.

Arya's story continues to feel like bog standard 'badass girl kicking ass'. Having her fight back because of sheer badassery instead of her unintentionally warging feels hollow and like they're making her a cookie cutter badass girl stereotype. I can't stand Jaquen any more. I can't wait for her to leave the HoBW.

I guess the show gives no fucks with UnGregor and necromancy is just kind of ho-hum in King's Landing. Do they just think he didn't die, or do they realise necromancy was involved? It seems like they realise he was brought back from the dead and don't care other than being scared of UnGregor, which they were when he was alive anyway. Nobody seems to be in awe of the fact Qyburn can raise the dead.

No Dawn. We did get dual-wielding Sword of the Morning, though. That's totally better than Dawn, right guys? I wasn't expecting any more of a reveal than how Howland saved Ned, so the little bit with Lyanna screaming at the end was a bit of a bonus for me. I was truly happy to see Howland get some screen time.

I guess the little birds are working for Qyburn now. I was wondering how they'd reconcile their 'for the good of the realm' version of Varys (who is pure as the day is long) with killing Kevan in the show. It's now obvious that Qyburn will be the one behind Kevan's murder, ostensibly because he's oppressing poor Cersei.

[Danelle]

3 minutes ago, The Bear said:

I guess the little birds are working for Qyburn now. I was wondering how they'd reconcile their 'for the good of the realm' version of Varys (who is pure as the day is long) with killing Kevan in the show. It's now obvious that Qyburn will be the one behind Kevan's murder, ostensibly because he's oppressing poor Cersei.

What if Qyburn is Varys' agent, works for him and is told that Kevan and Pycelle, two men who were loyal to Tywin Lannister and planned to remain true to his legacy should die?

[House Toad]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, I believe in roses, since they, well, exist. Fairy tales is a different story, obviously. And what throne are you talking about? Have you ever read any post of mine where I say Arya will end up in a throne, iron or not? So stop making assumptions about what I believe or not, all right?

You want to read that Arya drinking from the euthanasia well means she'll die? Go right ahead, knock yourself out. I think it means absolutely nothing, because I think the show writers are bad and lazy writers, as simple as that. 

 

I am sorry why are we arguing here? That scene has brought out the domino's, leading up to a succession of events where it doesn't take a crystal ball to see her future. She will commit to a contract outside of her prayer list. Her prayer list contains the Mountain and Cersei, they are already basically dead? What is the 10 million dollar name of the temple's contract, a name that isn't on her list? It will either be Jon or Dany, maybe somebody else, but suspicion doesn't point to Jon because he is doing business currently with the bank. It could be Tyrion or LittleFinger doubtful, because there isn't much gain in removing them, maybe its Varys, but they serve who, the realm? Now we place the odds of her survival, being a character who just kills other people?

The well killed everybody who drunk from it. I think you are confusing its gift of death with something else medicinal, possibly suicide or euthanasia? But Euthanasia and suicide are both incorrect and partially correct. However the point made is she isn't walking away from her initiation. It wasn't the fountain of youth. Her whole training shown, was getting her to commit to her initiation. Her initiation is becoming no one and receiving the gift.

I like roses too, but I don't believe in them. Everything is a fairytale, little white lies told to make our time spent relevant over the nothingness we could face. However you could be right in assuming the directors and producers might have gotten that scene wrong, there are so many examples of this, even throughout this episode. Although in all likelyhood I think the domino's are in play. Can she just stop being no one, becoming someone later upon her desire? Not without the same price of that gift. Will she live out her days being the best assassin ever, fortifying herself forever? Or is she bound into service? Now we ask, what is the price of that service, and all roads lead to Rome. The obvious work around is if she doesn't survive?

 

 

[majgat]

No Dorne this episode again? Who else thinks Dorne will not feature till the end of the series? I seriously think they just swept it under the carpet. "We, empowered women of Dorne will not sit here idly by, we want war". Well there's no indication of any Dornish army anywhere (surprising, when we know Westeros internet coverage is everywhere).

[House Cambodia]

majgat - it got a brief mention by Jamie; to paraphrase, 'The murderous bitches of our daughter are in control, heigh-ho'. I think they'll appear briefly later on (maybe next series) but the main purpose of those appalling sequences in episode 1 was to streamline the Show plot by removing Dorne.

[Danelle]

@majgat

What they did to Dorne is by far the worst offense.

Inconsistencies in Sansa's or Jaime's arc can be resolved, not in an entirely satisfying manner, but they can be resolved.

But Dorne?

I don't know which one is worst, Dorne never appearing in the show or Dorne reappearing.

 

I remember last year that there were rumours of Dany arriving in Westeros via Dorne. I suppose that we will see again Ellaria and her girls but briefly.

[House Cambodia]

17 minutes ago, Danelle said:

@majgat

I remember last year that there were rumours of Dany arriving in Westeros via Dorne. I suppose that we will see again Ellaria and her girls but briefly.

In the books fAegon arrives via taking Dragonstone - her birthplace. I suspect she'll take over his storyline and rock up to Westeros, on Euron's ships, taking the eastern route, thus cutting Dorne out altogether.

 

Edit: Sorry, fAegon took Storm's End. I stand by the bigger picture!

[Danelle]

2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

In the books fAegon arrives via taking Dragonstone - her birthplace. I suspect she'll take over his storyline and rock up to Westeros, on Euron's ships, taking the eastern route, thus cutting Dorne out altogether.

Ι hadn't thought of that.

It is a possibility. 

Before season 6 aired, I expected that either Tyrion or Varys would attempt to contact the Martells.

Let us not forget that especially now, there are few Houses, who would be willing to support her claim.

Another possibility, is that perhaps we will see them again, if the Wall falls. It would be really interesting to see people's reactions from all over Westeros. 

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, majgat said:

No Dorne this episode again? Who else thinks Dorne will not feature till the end of the series? I seriously think they just swept it under the carpet. "We, empowered women of Dorne will not sit here idly by, we want war". Well there's no indication of any Dornish army anywhere (surprising, when we know Westeros internet coverage is everywhere).

I don't know what they'll do with that mess in Dorne, nor do I care. I do, however, find the notion that the atrocity with Elllaria and the snakes was "empowering women" extremely offensive. The only ones who were empowered in those scenes are sociopaths.