[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well the road south of CB only goes to WF, no surprise there. Again... the discussions on what Jon's plans are and were are heavily debated already for years in the book forum. And I'm not covering the gazillions of threads made about it, again. Obviously, by saying he rides to WF "alone", he's not saying he's intending to besiege it or march, as you claim.

And yet you said:

"Because nowhere does Jon say that he's marching to WF"

But Jon said:

"I  ride  to  Winterfell"

You rather split infinitesimal hairs than admit you're wrong, huh? 

[TepidHands]

33 minutes ago, The Wull said:

I felt bad for him, until I read an interview with him where he said, " I want Khaleesi to be queen of Westeros. I've seen how she deals with the slaves and stuff like that."

I CANNOT STAND people who call Danaerys Khaleesi as if it's her name, and not one insignificant title amongst many.

To be fair, he's 14. It's those people naming their babies Khaleesi that worry me. 

[bemused]

55 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

“The  Night’s  Watch  will  make  for  Hardhome.  I  ride  to  Winterfell  alone,  unless  …”  Jon  paused.  “… is there any man here who will come stand with me?” 

Boom. 

And lest you say he's lying for the benefit of some Bolton spies in the audience here are his very thoughts:

"I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard."

This has been discussed and argued at length on the book threads... For some, "Jon riding to WF" will be taken at face value until proved or disproved when GRRM weighs in on the matter in TWoW ... but for many, the numerous evidences of probable foreshadowing to the contrary (going back as far as ASoS) outweigh this one instance - where Jon is attempting to rally the wildlings to respond to the pink letter. (They don't care about WF, they are moved to follow Jon, personally, and won't desert him if he changes the location of making Ramsay answer for his threats.)

We're not all agreed on what the resolution will be..E.g., I differ from Sweetsunray in that I think Ramsay is riding to CB after "Arya" and Jon intends to take him out somewhere along the way (again, probably on NW lands)... but I venture to say that most of us who disagree with the most superficial reading ("I ride to Winterfell") think that attempting to take WF is the least likely scenario.

In any case, this is not a debate thread, so if you want to air any complaints you have about the show, this is the place. Have at it.

[Chebyshov]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You don't just SNAP out of PTSD with "tough love". I'm cussing them with all the names imaginable in silence. That's just plain awful... Any decent human being with some psychological background or organisations helping PSTD sufferers should cut them verbally into shreds over this. They trample over thousands of people dealing with PTSD who fought wars for them in order to say such utter nonsense on TV, and many others who suffered physical, mental and emotional abuse by psychopaths.  

Even if we're going to pretend "Ironborn don't have empathy" (gee that Theon sample chapter sang a different tune but w/e) and this is just the "harsh reality of the world," it was shown as working and then basically endorsed by D&D as "what Theon needed." There are individuals out there who buy this "toughen up" bs. Do they consult no one?? Don't answer that.

On GoT, PTSD gets screamed away, or in Sansa's case this way, disappears with empowering violence. Yay!

[TheCasualObserver]

2 hours ago, protar said:

Exactly. I mean the whole battle itself didn't need to happen. If Ramsay had kept Rickon a hostage he would have had leverage over Jon and Sansa and they would have been stumped. Now obviously Ramsay is crazy, but what happened wasn't him getting himself into a battle he didn't need to be in and then losing because killing Rickon and coming out to face Jon was a tactically awful decision. He lost because of a baelish ex machina.

Whilst I agree, I think the battle didn't really need to happen in numerous ways, the first and most obvious being that Ramsay is not a man who in the real world could muster and hold together an army. True justice against Ramsay would be him being tried in some sort of court, but narrative justice would be his own men turning on him as a result of his cruel, psychotic and erratic decision making. Because in the long run, why would anyone want Ramsay Snow in charge? The idea is ludicrous.

But the show has no room to demonstrate the consequences of his actions because it tacitly endorses the violent and underhanded methods of keeping power that men like Ramsay and LF use. Ramsay's end comes when Sansa uses the same hideous method of execution that he used.

What makes this all the more confusing is that the showrunners mentioned somewhere that Ramsay's methods would catch up to him, but apparently that simply meant his method of dispatch, whilst his callous disregard for life and liberty in service to his own ambitions gets a gold star, just as LF does. 

[Chebyshov]

1 minute ago, TheCasualObserver said:

What makes this all the more confusing is that the showrunners mentioned somewhere that Ramsay's methods would catch up to him, but apparently that simply meant his method of dispatch, whilst his callous disregard for life and liberty in service to his own ambitions gets a gold star, just as LF does. 

They meant his methods of dog training, I guess.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Lyin' Ned said:

And yet you said:

"Because nowhere does Jon say that he's marching to WF"

But Jon said:

"I  ride  to  Winterfell"

You rather split infinitesimal hairs than admit you're wrong, huh? 

When I'm wrong, I'll have no issue admitting it. Is there any need for you to make this discussion of what-happens-in-the-books personal? This is truly not the thread for it, whether about the show or the books.

The point is not that I'm splitting hairs, but that GRRM is an excellent mistery writer. Despite the fact that we're inside Theon's head in his aCoK's POVs, we only learn the truth of Bran and Rickon being alive in Bran's last POV. And yet there are clues and evidence in Theon's POV that Reek-Ramsay proposes to kill two other boys and pretend they are the escaped Stark boys, that Theon fully understands it by the mere looking at direwolf-pins and agrees to it... Grrm writes in a way that plans are hiding in plain sight, while misdirecting the reader. It's his MO. He does the same thing when revealing that Reek was actually Ramsay (and this fact goes over the head of many readers on 1st time read), and with the intended switch of the Bloody Mummers going from Ser Amory to Bolton. This is how GRRM makes sure the reader is surprised without resorting to ex-machina tactics. It's also the reason why the books are so difficult to adapt.

And it's something that GOT has failed to do since pretty much S4. They played plot straight and brought in ex-machina abilities or help instead, and a lot of faux-tension, which is one of the many reasons that the seasons have plumetted down-hill imo since S4 in writing. Because d$d did manage to do the necessary mysteries in S2 and S3 (except not doing it for HH, except for creating an invented magical mystery on how Jaquen managed to kill a whole castle by himself), so many people to this day still speculate whether there's an off-screen plot, a plan... but there isn't... not in GOT anymore. There is however, still in aSoIaF.

So, when there is no logical reason per the Pink Letter for Jon to march and besiege WF (fArya escaped obviously and is en route to CB), and GRRM explicitly includes the mention of hours of strategy and tactical convo about the letter and what to do about it (you know 'what is Jon's plan') while we're actually in Jon's head and POV (cfr Theon's plan how to deal with escaped Stark boys) but equally keeps us out of the loop, then no, Jon's plan wasn't marching and besieging WF.

Now, I gave you the courtesy to discuss somewhat within limits of this thread without becoming personal. I would like you to give me the same courtesy by leaving out further sniping towards my person.

[The Knight in Motley]

Aside from the whole "Sansa Lied, Northmen Died" problem, the biggest pile of bullshit in the north is the fact that Ramsey didn't know about the Vale Army.

Drawing Ramsey out of Winterfell has very little to do with it.  Jon doesn't have a siege force. He also doesn't have an avenue of retreat, nor a holdfast of his own to be counter attacked.  Lets say Ramsey DID know about the Vale army.  Knowing about it puts him in a monstrously good position.  Now there is a siege force, comprised of an accused regicide, a deserter, and two traitorous lords who just left their entire kingdom defenseless.  It takes one good raven south to the Lannisters and Freys that Sansa Stark is there, with an army made up of the Warden of the East and Littlefinger.  Ramsey explains the whole situation, having to lie very little, and regardless of the outcome, all the remaining Starks, the North, and all of their allies are now traitors to the crown in open revolt.  Ramsey digs in for a siege and waits for ravens from the south picking apart the Vale army as their lands are trashed by every venturous lord in the south.

Right?

No, the south is in no condition at all to attack the Vale.  They are splintered and dealing with the sparrows.  No one but Cersei would give a shit, and she isn't sending the corpse pile that rides away from her side.

Winterfell would not withstand a siege when the show has repeatedly shown how easy it is to get in and out.  Ramsey can't keep his entire army at Winterfell, not when the Vale can march off for a few days, and ransack the Bolton allies undefended homelands.

Ramsey would have to change tactics, but cannot risk a siege at Winterfell with his main force there.

Still:

The biggest problem with the Battle of the Bullshit is that Ramsey didn't know about the Vale army.

Oh, they snuck up? no.  Don't offer that excuse up, its pure bullshit.  LF tells Sansa his forces have taken Moat Cailin.  Moat Cailin is probably the second most important castle in the North after Winterfell.  Definitely top three.

Regardless of how LF got to Winterfell, the plot demands that no one but Sansa know that LF took Moat Cailin and that is pure and utter horseshit.

No one else ever even mentions it.

Well hey, lets consider that maybe LF was lying about taking Moat Cailin, just to sound more impressive.

Well then where the heck did Sansa's raven go to?

Imagine you're a Bolton Maester at Moat Cailin, and some crazy ass letter shows up begging that the knights of an entirely different kingdom come rescue a wanted regicide and enemy/wife of your liege lord.  Even if you send the letter on to the correct address out of the goodness of your heart/station, you'd probably want to warn the psychopathics a-hole the letter is plotting against, lest he send 20 good executioners down to flay you alive.

So the next avenue is that Ramsey didn't care.  Again, bullshit.  Jon didn't capture Moat Cailin, the Vale Lords did.  An entirely different kingdom is invading Ramsey's territory.  One that is related to his wife and whose only reason to attack the north would be to defend her.

So we're back to Ramsey not knowing that the largest army left in the 7 Kingdoms is marching into his territory.  Lets say that every single person south of Winterfell is secretly cheering on the Vale army and they all agree not to tell any Boltons.  Not a single greedy opportunist or hedge knight or sychophant chooses to betray a foreign invasion force.  "The North Remembers!" 

I'll have to grant that this is possible, provided it is also taken for granted that the chances of this happening are the very definition of ludicrous.

That might explain how the Vale army gets pretty far North, but it certainly doesn't cover the last 1-2 days march to Winterfell, unless Ramsey literally has no scouts and is actively telling his men to completely ignore any news from the south.

Or, if perhaps the plot just doesn't give two shits and wants LF to ride in heroic and trumphant with Lady Smug Stark, 1st of her name and Bad Ass Bitch of the North, Kinslayer, and the Lady who is Late.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I read somewhere that Art Parkinson was paid as an extra this season, that's why he didn't have lines. 

Poor guy.

Had the same thought. Bad for any actor to play the slaughterhouse. Have 10 seconds screen time, say barely a word, then be killed. Still sadder for a kid.

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I hope GRRM makes Rickon the baddest, fiercest kid Stark of all in the books. After all, he's been mentored by Osha, currently is living on Cannibal Island and is now going to be taken under the wing of our very own Davos 

And I hope Benjen is with Rickon too. There is not much places where Benjen can stay and be alive. And not much reason why Rickon would follow someone to Skagos (if willingly). Rickon is safe.

[Cas Stark]

The North story is beyond saving.

No amount of honeypotting, "it happened off screen" explanations, history lessons or anything else  can put humpty dumpty back together again.  

People are either going to go with it, yea Starks! yeah revenge! and not think about the actual story, or they'll become ranters.  

 

[Chebyshov]

7 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

That might explain how the Vale army gets pretty far North, but it certainly doesn't cover the last 1-2 days march to Winterfell, unless Ramsey literally has no scouts and is actively telling his men to completely ignore any news from the south.

Or, if perhaps the plot just doesn't give two shits and wants LF to ride in heroic and trumphant with Lady Smug Stark, 1st of her name and Bad Ass Bitch of the North, Kinslayer, and the Lady who is Late.

Nothing is just nothing!

No the honeypots are staggering...people think the GNC actually happened off-screen.

[lostcause]

Didn't see this posted, sorry if it's a repost.

 

But here is the reason for Ghost being AFK for the battle:

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-director-why-ghost-wasnt-in-battle-of-the-bastards-2016-6?r=US&IR=T

 

Basically because: Dragons. He says Wun-Wun was the optional, but let's be honest we've seen almost nothing of both Ghost and giant. Plenty of dragons though.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, lostcause said:

Didn't see this posted, sorry if it's a repost.

 

But here is the reason for Ghost being AFK for the battle:

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-director-why-ghost-wasnt-in-battle-of-the-bastards-2016-6?r=US&IR=T

 

Basically because: Dragons.

They are so fucking lame and awful.  It's truly galling that their lameless, hackery and awfulness continues to be rewarded and applauded. 

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, lostcause said:

Didn't see this posted, sorry if it's a repost.

 

But here is the reason for Ghost being AFK for the battle:

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-director-why-ghost-wasnt-in-battle-of-the-bastards-2016-6?r=US&IR=T

 

Basically because: Dragons.

Thanks for that... basically that means bad management of budget. I'm pretty sure that Ghost-wolf's handler and all had to be paid for all the work done with him. But as it didn't got developed or enhanced further, it didn't make the cut.

[a black swan]

They did film a scene with a Wolf pack so they still have a chance to do something right with the direwolves. 

[Winter's Cold]

This episode is supposed to be about the Starks finally reclaiming Winterfell yet they fail to include Jon's direwolf, the symbol of House Stark. I suppose it does make sense though, looking at how easily Summer died, Ghost would have probably been useless. Hopefully he shows up next episode if Jon gets crowned King of the North.

[kissdbyfire]

@Chebyshov, are we going to have the 2nd Annual Carol Awards?

 

[thehandwipes]

15 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, this has nothing to do with feminism (which just means women are people, too), it's just hacks hacking.

Yeah if they were capable of writing compelling female characters (or copy/paste the ones from the books) there would be no need for a "women on top" themed season.  Their bad writing keeps getting them backed into a corner they then have to write (badly) their way out of.

Though to be fair, they are terrible at writing male characters as well.  I mean, sure, they understand that we like to play games where we stick our fingers in our friends buttholes, but there's no effort at understanding why.

[TepidHands]

50 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Had the same thought. Bad for any actor to play the slaughterhouse. Have 10 seconds screen time, say barely a word, then be killed. Still sadder for a kid.

Bet he wishes he'd auditioned for Olly.

[TheCasualObserver]

42 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

<snippy snippy>

I'll have to grant that this is possible, provided it is also taken for granted that the chances of this happening are the very definition of ludicrous.

That might explain how the Vale army gets pretty far North, but it certainly doesn't cover the last 1-2 days march to Winterfell, unless Ramsey literally has no scouts and is actively telling his men to completely ignore any news from the south.

Or, if perhaps the plot just doesn't give two shits and wants LF to ride in heroic and trumphant with Lady Smug Stark, 1st of her name and Bad Ass Bitch of the North, Kinslayer, and the Lady who is Late.

So much good stuff here. I will correct you on the point above however - the north remaining silent for a few days whilst an anti Bolton force makes it's way north is possible... but that's not what happened. It's far more ridiculous than that.

LF told Sansa that the Knights of the Vale had occupied Moat Cailin in episode 4 of this season, prior to her and Jon's road trip round the north. Unlike other areas where the show just bullshits some easy excuse (some storylines are happening sooner or later than others) this creates a fixed point in time relative to Sansa and Jon. So for all the time the Starks were cobbling together their army, the vale knights controlled Moat Cailin. This suggests at least a month and probably more in which the gateway to the North is in the possession of a foreign power, and the leader of the North has no idea!

To add insult to injury, Ramsay has every reason to fear attack from the south and be on the lookout for suspicious activity. He married Sansa and earned Cersei's ire, but more immediately he murdered Walda Frey, a woman who's powerful family is Ramsay's closest southern neighbor. But Moat Cailin, gateway to the North and bulwark against any invasion, is taken by hostile forces and Ramsay seems to neither know nor care.

It's the kind of sloppiness which isn't found in the books, or indeed earlier seasons of the show. GRRM goes to great lengths to explain why Stannis doesn't know Tywin is coming at Blackwater - Tyrion's mountain men, who have spent their whole lives harrying, killed off Stannis' scouts. In the show all of Stannis' men came from his ships to attack the city and had no time or space to scout around the area.