Police killed at Dallas protest

[kairparavel]

9 minutes ago, ElizabethB. said:

Look, if you strip your police forces the ability to use force, you'll be funding a very macabre circus.

It's like you are posting without any knowledge of the subject of this thread or the issues with policing in America currently and historically.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

16 minutes ago, ElizabethB. said:

Look, if you strip your police forces the ability to use force, you'll be funding a very macabre circus.

That's not what I said.  Where officers lives are in imminant danger force is proper.  That doesn't mean they get to kill suspects because it is "easier" or "more efficient" than apprehending them.  

For example if officers shot all speeders as they approached their cars they would the speeders would never get a chance to shoot the officer and the officer would always be safe.  

That's the officer murdering the speeder even though the officer is "safer".

[Cas Stark]

How long is long enough to wait in a stand off with a mass murdering sniper who still has his rifle and refuses to surrender?  A few more hours?  Days?  Is the issue that he should have been taken alive no matter what and lethal force shouldn't have been considered or that instead of going in, guns blazing and risking more lives they decided to take him out remotely?

[James Arryn]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

How long is long enough to wait in a stand off with a mass murdering sniper who still has his rifle and refuses to surrender?  A few more hours?  Days?  Is the issue that he should have been taken alive no matter what and lethal force shouldn't have been considered or that instead of going in, guns blazing and risking more lives they decided to take him out remotely?

As already mentioned, there were probably options between floor-drone and Forlorn Hope.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That's what happens.  That doesn't make it okay.

Absolutely, but as far as practicality goes, it is the reality. They do get to kill people with impunity, especially cop killers. I can't think of one case of a cop who received serious punishment for killing a cop killer. On top of that, I can't remember the last time a cop killer was taken alive outside of the perp turning themselves over after the fact.

[Dr. Pepper]

5 hours ago, ElizabethB. said:

What? No, that can't be the case. Dr. Pepper is certainly not that petty. 

The cluelessness here is breathtaking. 

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

How long is long enough to wait in a stand off with a mass murdering sniper who still has his rifle and refuses to surrender?  A few more hours?  Days?  Is the issue that he should have been taken alive no matter what and lethal force shouldn't have been considered or that instead of going in, guns blazing and risking more lives they decided to take him out remotely?

Once they decided to use a robot to end the situation, it seems reasonable that they could tried a different option with that other than immediately going to C-4.  The use of a drone strike is decidedly disturbing, if only for the precedent it sets.  

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

How long is long enough to wait in a stand off with a mass murdering sniper who still has his rifle and refuses to surrender?  A few more hours?  Days?  Is the issue that he should have been taken alive no matter what and lethal force shouldn't have been considered or that instead of going in, guns blazing and risking more lives they decided to take him out remotely?

Why not? It's not like it would be the first time someone with a gun was waited out. I also have to wonder how much ammo the guy was carrying with him.

[Ser Gareth]

4 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Why not? It's not like it would be the first time someone with a gun was waited out. I also have to wonder how much ammo the guy was carrying with him.

1) Waste of public funds.  The chances are the outcome would've been the same.  It would have just taken longer, cost more etc.

2) The longer the situation goes on the greater the chance an innocent or officer would die.  Especially if he decides to go out in a blaze of glory.

3) If he is taken alive in my people's eyes he will become the symbol of a freedom fighter.  A Nelson Mandela, rising up to fight against the evil white man.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

1) Waste of public funds.  The chances are the outcome would've been the same.  It would have just taken longer, cost more etc.

2) The longer the situation goes on the greater the chance an innocent or officer would die.  Especially if he decides to go out in a blaze of glory.

3) If he is taken alive in my people's eyes he will become the symbol of a freedom fighter.  A Nelson Mandela, rising up to fight against the evil white man.

Ser Gareth,

Point 3 is crap.  Who is calling this POS a maytr or some kind of freedom fightet now?  Why would they do so if he had been taken alive?

[SkynJay]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

1) Waste of public funds.  The chances are the outcome would've been the same.  It would have just taken longer, cost more etc.

2) The longer the situation goes on the greater the chance an innocent or officer would die.  Especially if he decides to go out in a blaze of glory.

3) If he is taken alive in my people's eyes he will become the symbol of a freedom fighter.  A Nelson Mandela, rising up to fight against the evil white man.

I agree with point 2.  The other two are silly.  Public funds are the least of people's concern in a stand off and I am sure the legal fees fighting off the inevitable lawsuit will be much higher anyway.

And point 3 only works in the worst right wing conspiracy.  No one important is calling him a martyr, so who would consider him a symbol alive?

[Ser Gareth]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ser Gareth,

Point 3 is crap.  Who is calling this POS a maytr or some kind of freedom fightet now?  Why would they do so if he had been taken alive?

The softening of time.  And yes, people are seeing him as some kind of martyr.  I have a mate who likes to think of himself as a bit of a black activist (he actually isn't, he is way too lazy but he does love a good FB rant!) and whilst he certainly hasn't condoned the actions there are plenty of people responding to his posts that have.  It seems the common one is Johnson's name followed by a fist pump and/or black power style drawn emoticon.

[DunderMifflin]

I can see if a guy like that happens to be super charming and handsome or something similar that there's a risk of him becoming some sort of heroic symbol. 

But that being a factor in the decision to kill quickly seems kind of far fetched in this particular case.

[Ser Gareth]

3 minutes ago, SkynJay said:

I agree with point 2.  The other two are silly.  Public funds are the least of people's concern in a stand off and I am sure the legal fees fighting off the inevitable lawsuit will be much higher anyway.

And point 3 only works in the worst right wing conspiracy.  No one important is calling him a martyr, so who would consider him a symbol alive?

It doesn't have to be anyone important.  I've already seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears that a lot of black people here in the UK are sympathetic to his actions.  Had he lived I can guarantee that in 10/15/20 years there would be protests demanding his freedom.  And likely riots if he had committed suicide or been killed in prison.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ser Gareth,

Point 3 is crap.  Who is calling this POS a maytr or some kind of freedom fightet now?  Why would they do so if he had been taken alive?

Actually I think that might've been his best point. Cost shouldn't really enter into it when you're talking about a human life. Even a killer's life. I know that's not entirely realistic, but I doubt the Dallas Police Department is going to site cost as a viable reason for not handling the situation differently. And once you have the guy pinned to one spot, I think the risk to any officers laying that siege is relatively low. You're talking about a SWAT unit at that point.

 Other POS are calling this guy a martyr already.

http://twitchy.com/sd-3133/2016/07/08/meet-some-of-the-maggots-applauding-hero-dallas-cop-killers-deadly-handiwork/

 

Honestly, if I'm an officer of that department after this event occurs, and I'm presented with a potential solution that is safer for me and my co-workers, I'm going to take it. The one concern I'd have with using explosives is the threat of collateral damage.

[Ser Gareth]

3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I can see if a guy like that happens to be super charming and handsome or something similar that there's a risk of him becoming some sort of heroic symbol. 

But that being a factor in the decision to kill quickly seems kind of far fetched in this particular case.

Just to be clear I wasn't responding to the motives of killing him quickly.  I was merely responding as to why it was perfectly acceptable to kill him quickly.

The motive to kill him quickly in this case seems obvious.  They needed to neutralise him ASAP and it was obvious they couldn't do it using manpower and have everyone come away unharmed.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ser Gareth,

I'll believe you on the mayrtr point when you show non-crazies calling him a mayrtr now.

[Ser Gareth]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ser Gareth,

I'll believe you on the mayrtr point when you show non-crazies calling him a mayrtr now.

Nice caveat.

If you truly believe that there aren't going to be millions of people around the world who don't applaud his actions then you're out of touch with how a lot of these people feel.  To them it really is "them and us" when it comes to the Police.  They see them as the enemy.  Now bear in mind that a lot of these people will happily kill each other, it's not exactly a stretch to come to the realisation they aren't going to shed any tears for a few dead cops and indeed will cheer it happening.

[Dr. Pepper]

15 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Nice caveat.

If you truly believe that there aren't going to be millions of people around the world who don't applaud his actions then you're out of touch with how a lot of these people feel.  To them it really is "them and us" when it comes to the Police.  They see them as the enemy.  Now bear in mind that a lot of these people will happily kill each other, it's not exactly a stretch to come to the realisation they aren't going to shed any tears for a few dead cops and indeed will cheer it happening.

Is this where you segue into a discussion about black on black murder?  Gag.

I doubt that the concern about turning him into a symbolic figure entered their minds, especially seeing as it's quite easy to create a martyr with a dead body and a martyr can often be more dangerous than a living person.  

Lots of people applauding his actions really doesn't mean much.  There are millions of people who applaud the actions of white cops who execute black men on video.  There are many who applaud the mass shooter Robert Dear.  This doesn't mean that these people are figure heads for popular movements.  

Either way, I still hold that a drone strike is highly disturbing.  When much of the protests have to do with police overreach and brutality and the militarization of the police, we should have huge concerns that a major police department introduced drone strikes on their own citizenry.  

[maarsen]

10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And?  That doesn't change anything about what I said.  I didn't say being a LEO is the "most dangerous" job.  I simply acknowledge that it is dangerous.  The fact that it is dangerous does not justify any and all actions taken for "officer safety".  That's my point.

The problem with violence against hospital staff is that they have no recourse. Even bringing up the subject can lead to problems.

Check out Sue McIntyre, a North Bay area  nurse.

[Ser Gareth]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Is this where you segue into a discussion about black on black murder?  Gag.

I doubt that the concern about turning him into a symbolic figure entered their minds, especially seeing as it's quite easy to create a martyr with a dead body and a martyr can often be more dangerous than a living person.  

Lots of people applauding his actions really doesn't mean much.  There are millions of people who applaud the actions of white cops who execute black men on video.  There are many who applaud the mass shooter Robert Dear.  This doesn't mean that these people are figure heads for popular movements.  

Either way, I still hold that a drone strike is highly disturbing.  When much of the protests have to do with police overreach and brutality and the militarization of the police, we should have huge concerns that a major police department introduced drone strikes on their own citizenry.  

No it's not where I talk about black on black.  I'm talking about people who hate the Police.

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist who didn't only refuse to condemn the killing of white women and children, but actually justified it as a necessary action.  Whether he was right or wrong is irrelevant.  The fact is despite having such extreme views he become a global hero.

London rioted for three days in the name of a gang banging thug killed by the Police here.

I don't know your background.  Mine is from a council estate where I grew up around the mentality.  I know what certain subsets will rally too.  And a cop killer of such infamy will be widely celebrated and revered in certain sub cultural circles.