Rogue One Spoilers Discussion: I Am With You, Jyn Erso

[ab aeterno]

7 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I saw it yesterday and found myself a bit underwhelmed.  It was good, but it wasn't great, it left me kinda cold.  Perhaps my expectations were a bit too high after how much I enjoyed TFA.  A lot of the things that bothered me people have already mentioned:

 - Uninspiring music, boring first 1/3rd of the movie, Peter Cushing's resurrection. 

But I think that the main problem I had was:

Why do the Imperials have to suck so badly?  Why is it that just a few rebels without even a map can kill ten times their number of stormtroopers?  Why did that one guy get an automatic weapon but stormtroopers never do?  Why is it that a single attack run from a few fighters was able to disable a Star Destroyer with Ion weapons, but the dozens of TIE fighters couldn't do the same to the Rebel fleet?  Why wasn't the non-disabled star destroyer smart enough to avoid it's crippled sister ship when it started moving? 

I understand that individually these are nit-picks, but the incompetence of the Imperial forces really started to get to me in this movie.  Yes, this isn't new in Star Wars, although in ANH they at least had the excuse that our heroes were all force sensitive.  ROTJ had this problem in spades, and it made that movie worse too.  When the Death Star can destroy a planet but their ground army is clearly inferior to 1990s military technology, it is frankly pretty disappointing. 

I don't really want to turn this into too much of an over-obsession, but to answer a few of those:

So, the Star Destroyer and TIEs:

Firstly, it's worth noting that this absolutely isn't one attack run. They've spent the entire battle destroying the shield generators on that Star Destroyer so they can disable it. It crashed into the other Star Destroyer before they could react - it's not as if they were expecting to get suicide rammed by the Rebel fleet, who only happened to have a couple of ships that could be used for this purpose. As for why the TIEs couldn't do the same:

TIE Fighers are relatively inexpensive, but high performing, mass produced craft that are designed for short range engagements to augment the Imperial fleet or to defend Imperial forces. They're generally only equipped with basic weapons, because there isn't usually a need to go beyond that.

The weapons they carry aren't advanced, but they're good enough to do their jobs, think AK-47s. TIEs generally don't carry ion cannons or ion torpedoes, which makes sense because they're anti-ship weapons, and the Empire has overwhelming superiority when it comes to the starfleet. The Empire is usually looking to destroy enemy ships, rather than disable them, and they have the firepower to do it, as they were doing to the Rebel fleet. If they really needed to capture a ship they could disable it with regular weapons because they have the firepower to do that.

The Rebels meanwhile equip their fighters with anti-ship weapons because they know the likelihood is that they'll be fighting Imperial capital ships. They don't have the firepower to destroy them, so they have to make do with disabling them, which is again, what they do.

Stormtroopers and Rebels:

The obvious reason the Rebels are able to kill far more Stormtroopers is because they're the good guys, and it wouldn't be very dramatic if there were only a handful of Stormtroopers, or if the Rebels managed to bring a massive army.

Setting that aside, the Rebels were generally in defensive positions and the Stormtroopers were having to assault those positions from obvious attacking points.

As for the Stormtroopers weapons; we literally see one guy with a weapon that is particularly more powerful than what the Stormtroopers are using, and he's a mercenary who carries a heavy weapon (presumably to compensate for the fact that he is one man and doesn't have an army behind him.)

Stormtroopers have heavy weapons - they sometimes carry around massive laser cannons like the one they bring into Echo Base in ESB, but generally speaking your average soldier doesn't need to be wandering around with an LMG. Maybe you'd have a specialist or two, but heavier weapons are just going to slow them down most of the time. They don't need to carry those weapons because they have strength in numbers.

Of course, there are also two contextual points worth mentioning: Firstly, on Scarif they have to attack the Rebels, so carrying an LMG / heavy laser weapon is probably less useful in this situation than if they were defending. Secondly, they're on a heavily fortified Imperial world with a planet wide shield and a large garrison at their facility. So they may not even have those weapons at that base, and if they did, they may not have them easily accessible as they wouldn't be expecting a ground assault. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

28 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

 

Of course, there are also two contextual points worth mentioning: Firstly, on Scarif they have to attack the Rebels, so carrying an LMG / heavy laser weapon is probably less useful in this situation than if they were defending. Secondly, they're on a heavily fortified Imperial world with a planet wide shield and a large garrison at their facility. So they may not even have those weapons at that base, and if they did, they may not have them easily accessible as they wouldn't be expecting a ground assault. 

This is an excellent answer for everything that happened on Scarif; they had a global defense shield and the last thing they expected there was an attack.  The walkers were transport devices, not primarily for attack.  The Empire is so corporate like the Vogons lol, they need everything signed in triplicate and are not really equipped to fight Rebels (who also have the advantage of caring about their plight and really have something to believe in and fight for, which the stormtroopers do not) who have their own plan instead of just following orders, especially in Rogue One.  They are Rogue Rebels so they are even following less orders than other rebels fighters usually do.

[Jen'ari]

Let's face it, it's plot armour pure and simple, if it was being remotely realistic given the Empires vastly superior numbers and firepower, thenplucky band of rebels would be killed within the first 5 minutes and there wouldn't be much of a film, considering they can't just do the decent thing for galaxy wide stability and let the Empire reign unopposed they have to make all its forces look vastly incompetent-unless they're a Sith Lord or Tarkin.

Personally I'd be all for the plucky band of rebels all being killed in the first 5 minutes, the other hour and 55 minutes could be Imperial propaganda, but I'm told that would upset the kids too much.....

[All-for-Joffrey]

Carrie Fisher is dead  

May the Force be with her 

[ab aeterno]

2 minutes ago, All-for-Joffrey said:

Carrie Fisher is dead  

May the Force be with her 

There is no death. There is only the Force.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

She just fucking died. #fuck2016

[generalzod]

Seriously if you can't enjoy stormtroopers as cannon fodder with bad aim, you just might be utterly joyless and apply ridiculous "veritae" standards to a movie franchise with the Force, Jedis, Jawas, protocol droids, and Ewoks. 

Cue Comic Book Guy voice:  "I hate Star Wars because real Stormtroopers would have shot Luke and Han dead at Mos Eisley spaceport in A New Hope!  So unrealistic!" 

Guess what? Star Wars IS unrealistic.  The Force is unrealistic.  Hyperdrive is unrealistic. 

But if "realism" is your hang up in a franchise with little green wizards...just read about the Russian Army in World War I and Afghsnistan and they'll make Imperial Stormtroopers seem like Navy Seal Team SIX.

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Why do the Imperials have to suck so badly?  Why is it that just a few rebels without even a map can kill ten times their number of stormtroopers?  Why did that one guy get an automatic weapon but stormtroopers never do?  Why is it that a single attack run from a few fighters was able to disable a Star Destroyer with Ion weapons, but the dozens of TIE fighters couldn't do the same to the Rebel fleet?  Why wasn't the non-disabled star destroyer smart enough to avoid it's crippled sister ship when it started moving? 

I understand that individually these are nit-picks, but the incompetence of the Imperial forces really started to get to me in this movie.  Yes, this isn't new in Star Wars, although in ANH they at least had the excuse that our heroes were all force sensitive.  ROTJ had this problem in spades, and it made that movie worse too.  When the Death Star can destroy a planet but their ground army is clearly inferior to 1990s military technology, it is frankly pretty disappointing. 

Umm, Han Solo and Chewbacca are force sensitive? R2D2 and C-3PO are force sensitive? Remember when Han runs into like 50 stormtroopers and not one can hit him. And it took a space pirate in TFA to finally hit the 8 ft walking carpet.

[ab aeterno]

4 minutes ago, generalzod said:

Seriously if you can't enjoy stormtroopers as cannon fodder with bad aim, you just might be utterly joyless and apply ridiculous "veritae" standards to a movie franchise with the Force, Jedis, Jawas, protocol droids, and Ewoks. 

Cue Comic Book Guy voice:  "I hate Star Wars because real Stormtroopers would have shot Luke and Han dead at Mos Eisley spaceport in A New Hope!  So unrealistic!" 

Guess what? Star Wars IS unrealistic.  The Force is unrealistic.  Hyperdrive is unrealistic. 

But if "realism" is your hang up in a franchise with little green wizards...just read about the Russian Army in World War I and Afghsnistan and they'll make Imperial Stormtroopers seem like Navy Seal Team SIX.

There's also the fan theory that the Stormtroopers are intentionally failing to kill Han, Luke, Leia et al. It's actually quite compelling when you think about it. The Stormtroopers have no problems killing practically everyone else they engage, and there's always a good reason for them to survive from the Empire's PoV. In ANH the plan is for them to lead the Empire to the Rebel base, in ESB the plan is to use them as bait for Luke, and in RotJ they're trying to capture Luke.

Here's one take on that theory.

[Maithanet]

53 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I think it's overstating the case to say that Imperial forces "suck". The rebels fighting on Scarif are a combat-tested group of fighters executing a surprise attack against the Stormtrooper positions. While Stormtroopers are highly trained, being posted on an Outer Rim planet like Scarif could well mean they haven't had much actual combat experience.  

The assault begins with the rebels taking out any sentries on duty, which effectively means any reinforcements are advancing against an unknown number and position of enemy combatants.  Also, since Scarif is entirely Empire-controlled with no rebel presence to speak of, it's probable that very few of the garrison are actively combat-equipped at any one time. For comparison, in military bases here in the U.S., there are very few soldiers carrying hot weapons at any given time, and any ordnance and/or ammunition is kept under strict lock and key. So a heavily armed, moderately-sized force would be able to establish tactically advantageous positions which would allow them to inflict heavy casualties on the initial response forces, especially with a supposed Empire cargo pilot feeding misinformation to the battlefield commanders. Not to mention that the rebels have some air support, which helps them immensely. Notice that once the Imperial forces are able to organize and direct their troops, the rebels start dying off very quickly.

Regarding the space battle, rebel X-Wings and Y-Wings are more heavily armed and armored than TIE-fighters, and have a weapons complement designed to be able to damage capital ships, while TIE-fighters are strictly designed for "aerial" dogfights with other fighters. Regarding the impact of the Star Destroyers, I'll have to watch that scene again to get a better feel, but I do remember the captain of the non-disabled ship giving the order for evasive action. It could well be that the disabled ship was too close to be able to be avoided.

The stormtroopers incompetence went beyond just the battle of Scarif.  They were easily mowed down on Jedha as well, and those at least should have been experienced combat troops.  And that's kind of my main point is that the Empire's troops seem inferior to everyone else's troops in virtually all situations.  How did they come to rule the galaxy if their troops are of such poor quality?  It seems like any ragtag band of local fighters with just a couple of hours preparation can take down a superior number of stormtroopers without difficulty. 

This applies in the air as well.  Why do they use TIE fighters if they are so inferior to X-Wings?  TIE fighters are virtually useless against capitals ships, and are meant strictly for aerial dogfights, and yet they are pretty terrible at that as well.  The swarm of TIE fighters fail to wipe out the fighters in ROTJ, and in spite of vastly superior numbers again fail to wipe out the fighters in RO (you can see rebel fighters going to hyperspace when they retreat).  Why does the Empire settle for such a crappy, unreliable fighter when obviously superior models are available?  Does that sound like the strategy of a galaxy-spanning superpower?

And I get it.  It's an action series, and you need cannon fodder.  But there are times (mostly in ROTJ and RO) where this is really pushed too far.  That's when the Empire are such paper tigers, there is really no need to fear them at all.

[ab aeterno]

1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

The stormtroopers incompetence went beyond just the battle of Scarif.  They were easily mowed down on Jedha as well, and those at least should have been experienced combat troops.  And that's kind of my main point is that the Empire's troops seem inferior to everyone else's troops in virtually all situations.  How did they come to rule the galaxy if their troops are of such poor quality?  It seems like any ragtag band of local fighters with just a couple of hours preparation can take down a superior number of stormtroopers without difficulty. 

Jeddha was an ambush in an urban area. You could look at Iraq,or Afghanistan for comparison, or Vietnam. Guerrilla warfare works that way.

The other places we see Imperial troops engaged: The Tantive IV - all opposition eliminated. Hoth - overwhelming victory. Endor: Complete control until they fell for Han's ruse. 

3 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

This applies in the air as well.  Why do they use TIE fighters if they are so inferior to X-Wings?  TIE fighters are virtually useless against capitals ships, and are meant strictly for aerial dogfights, and yet they are pretty terrible at that as well.  The swarm of TIE fighters fail to wipe out the fighters in ROTJ, and in spite of vastly superior numbers again fail to wipe out the fighters in RO (you can see rebel fighters going to hyperspace when they retreat).  Why does the Empire settle for such a crappy, unreliable fighter when obviously superior models are available?  Does that sound like the strategy of a galaxy-spanning superpower?

The same reason why the US decided not to use B52s, F-22s and air superiority fighters in Iraq. You use the weapons that are appropriate to your opposition. As of Rogue One, as far as the Empire is aware, they're going to be fighting small bands of forces, rather than a large fleet, but the Star Destroyers are there to deal with capital ships. The Imperial Starfleet is primarily based around capital ships; the fighters are auxiliary forces. The Empire doesn't lose above Scarif either, they destroy the bulk of the Rebel ship, and the Imperial losses are negligible compared to Rebel losses. The Death Star plans are another story.

As for RotJ, their mission in RotJ isn't to destroy the Rebel fleet, it's to contain it, which is what they do.  -

"We're not going to attack?"
"I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."

The "better fighters" angle is also explored somewhat in SW Rebels and the novels/comics. 

[Week]

39 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

The "better fighters" angle is also explored somewhat in SW Rebels and the novels/comics. 

No amount of ret-conning is ever going to have it make sense and that's ok by me.

" The peak size of the AAF during the Second World War was over 2.4 million men and women in service and nearly 80,000 aircraft by 1944, and 783 domestic bases in December 1943. " Per wiki

There simply is no logical scaling up in a setting as large as Star Wars. The Empire builds multiple planet-killing space stations that house "342,953 members of the Imperial Army and Navy, 25,984 stormtroopers,[4] and nearly 2 million personnel of varying combat eligibility" (per wiki) ... yet scrambles less than two dozen fighters. The logic needed to explain and retcon does not hold up unless we assume Imperials are extremely stupid which then ignores the intelligence required to build, manage, and deploy such titanic weaponry.

[ab aeterno]

12 minutes ago, Week said:

No amount of ret-conning is ever going to have it make sense and that's ok by me.

" The peak size of the AAF during the Second World War was over 2.4 million men and women in service and nearly 80,000 aircraft by 1944, and 783 domestic bases in December 1943. " Per wiki

There simply is no logical scaling up in a setting as large as Star Wars. The Empire builds multiple planet-killing space stations that house "342,953 members of the Imperial Army and Navy, 25,984 stormtroopers,[4] and nearly 2 million personnel of varying combat eligibility" (per wiki) ... yet scrambles less than two dozen fighters. The logic needed to explain and retcon does not hold up unless we assume Imperials are extremely stupid which then ignores the intelligence required to build, manage, and deploy such titanic weaponry.

Which battle are we talking about with less than two dozen fighters? If it's OT, then the answer is really just technological limitations from a filmmaking point of view. Just because you don't see them etc. If we're talking Rogue One, it's a bit more glaring, but partially explainable through the fact that they weren't expecting an attack.

[generalzod]

3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

And that's kind of my main point is that the Empire's troops seem inferior to everyone else's troops in virtually all situations.  How did they come to rule the galaxy if their troops are of such poor quality?  

This applies in the air as well.  Why do they use TIE fighters if they are so inferior to X-Wings?  TIE fighters are virtually useless against capitals ships, and are meant strictly for aerial dogfights, and yet they are pretty terrible at that as well.  The swarm of TIE fighters fail to wipe out the fighters in ROTJ

 

How did Israel win the 6 Day War against vastly superior numbers and an attack by 5 countries simultaneously?

Why during the height of the Cold War did the Russians keep using MIG planes when the F-15s and F-16s were more maneuverable, superior aircraft?

Why couldn't the mighty Soviet Army defeat the Afghanistan resistance despite better technology and superior numbers ? 

Why did Russians use the less precise, but more durable mass produced AK-47s?

You can find examples in History that parallel all your complaints. 

But maybe it's because Stormtroopers are conscripted and the rebels believe in their cause as to why the Empire is doomed to failure ultimately? 

[Corvinus85]

@Maithanet I can't believe I have to say this to you of all people: war is conviction. 

[Slurktan]

10 hours ago, Maithanet said:

The stormtroopers incompetence went beyond just the battle of Scarif.  They were easily mowed down on Jedha as well, and those at least should have been experienced combat troops.  And that's kind of my main point is that the Empire's troops seem inferior to everyone else's troops in virtually all situations.  How did they come to rule the galaxy if their troops are of such poor quality?  It seems like any ragtag band of local fighters with just a couple of hours preparation can take down a superior number of stormtroopers without difficulty. 

This applies in the air as well.  Why do they use TIE fighters if they are so inferior to X-Wings?  TIE fighters are virtually useless against capitals ships, and are meant strictly for aerial dogfights, and yet they are pretty terrible at that as well.  The swarm of TIE fighters fail to wipe out the fighters in ROTJ, and in spite of vastly superior numbers again fail to wipe out the fighters in RO (you can see rebel fighters going to hyperspace when they retreat).  Why does the Empire settle for such a crappy, unreliable fighter when obviously superior models are available?  Does that sound like the strategy of a galaxy-spanning superpower?

And I get it.  It's an action series, and you need cannon fodder.  But there are times (mostly in ROTJ and RO) where this is really pushed too far.  That's when the Empire are such paper tigers, there is really no need to fear them at all.

I honestly think it's because the Stormtroopers weren't what took over the Galaxy.  The clones of an extremely competent fighter who were heavily trained did that.  I'm sure there will be a movie or tv show or book down the road to explain (new canon that is, old canon has an explanation) why the clones were replaced with a shitty, improperly trained army and I will guess that's when the Rebellion will start popping up in force.

[ab aeterno]

1 hour ago, Slurktan said:

I honestly think it's because the Stormtroopers weren't what took over the Galaxy.  The clones of an extremely competent fighter who were heavily trained did that.  I'm sure there will be a movie or tv show or book down the road to explain (new canon that is, old canon has an explanation) why the clones were replaced with a shitty, improperly trained army and I will guess that's when the Rebellion will start popping up in force.

I believe the current explanation is that the clones aged too fast.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

On 12/20/2016 at 6:21 PM, Astromech said:

Apparently, according to wookiepedia anyways, the world the Ersos are hiding out on(Iceland) is called Lah'mu and is located in the outer rim.

I also kind of dig that U-Wing = Huey in addition to the uniforms of some of the rebel troops as homages to war films.

The uniforms reminded me of Full Metal Jacket or Predator. 

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Slurktan said:

I honestly think it's because the Stormtroopers weren't what took over the Galaxy.  The clones of an extremely competent fighter who were heavily trained did that.  I'm sure there will be a movie or tv show or book down the road to explain (new canon that is, old canon has an explanation) why the clones were replaced with a shitty, improperly trained army and I will guess that's when the Rebellion will start popping up in force.

Rebels confirms that the stormtroopers have not received the intensive training the clone troopers did, or at least it was not as thorough, given that the initial batch of clone troopers was trained together on Kamino in preparation for a war and the stormtroopers have been conscripted in peacetime from across the galaxy.

Quote

Regarding TIE-fighters, there wasn't anything in my post suggesting that they're inferior to X-wings, I was just responding to your complaint that they're unable to take out capital ships by pointing out that the two different styles of ships are designed for different purposes. TIEs are faster and more maneuverable than the rebel fighters, for example. And I'm still confused as to how a few ships managing to escape in RO and RotJ means that TIEs are worthless. Rebel fighters being supported by their own capital ships helps negate some of the dogfight advantages of the TIEs. Compare that to ANH, when the Death Star TIEs wipe out the entire Rebel fleet other than Luke, Han, Wedge and the random Gold Wing fighter that survived.

Standard TIE fighters are unshielded, don't have hyperdrives and are slower and out-maneuvered by both X-wings and A-wings (which both have shields and hyperdrives). They are pretty crap compared to the Rebels. The TIE interceptors are faster than the X-wings (but not A-wings) and have a lot more firepower, but are still unshielded and don't have hyperdrives. In fact, the only TIEs with shields and hyperdrives are the TIE Advanced, possibly the Inquisitor-model TIEs from Rebels and the later TIE Avenger and Defender, although the latter two may have been removed from canon.

Why the TIEs are so rubbish is a source of much speculation. The main explanation seems to be that they're cheap to mass-produce and, as poor as they are, they're still better than 90% of the galaxy's ships. They are also meant to support larger capital operations, whilst the benefit of the Rebel fighters is that they can undertake complete missions by themselves without support.