US Politics: Mueller Monday

[OldGimletEye]

On 10/31/2017 at 2:55 PM, IamMe90 said:

Not my fault you're too cheap to buy good Wisconsin beer

I was hopin' somebody would defend Milwaukee's Best.

It may not be a fancy micro brew, but it's cheap. And as Lenin says, "quantity has a quality all of it's own."

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Having just reviewed the US Politics thread at the time of the Boston rally, it's something you didn't object to before. 

I'm frustrated that you seem to save up your intellectual rigor for useless nitpicks on other liberals. Fuck, in that same Boston thread was someone praising Boston's response to Nazis and you interjected with "Yeah, but Boston's a fucking racist city!"

The arguments we choose to have can tell people a lot about us. What have you told us?

I apologized to you and others for that comment shortly after I made it. It was inappropriate to make given the circumstance and I owned it. What do you want, a nice bottle of wine? 

Yeah, I have a tendency to nitpick. Noted. 

This all started for me as a half-assed defense of GAVOROKIN and more or less escalated from there. If that somehow reveals me as a nazi apologist in your eyes, then so be it.

[DanteGabriel]

10 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I apologized to you and others for that comment shortly after I made it. It was inappropriate to make given the circumstance and I owned it. What do you want, a nice bottle of wine? 

Yeah, I have a tendency to nitpick. Noted. 

This all started for me as a half-assed defense of GAVOROKIN and more or less escalated from there. If that somehow reveals me as a nazi apologist in your eyes, then so be it.

I'm pointing out your tendency to needle people you supposedly agree with over meaningless shit. If we were in a firing squad, you're consistently pointing your rifle to your left.

You can stop putting "Nazi apologist" in my mouth any time, and that seems especially shitty to impute to someone who has explicitly said you were no such thing. 

Starting it off with a defense of Garovorkin makes it... worse. Unless you agree with his idea that Nazis will never be a threat?

Honestly dude, you're a fan of this line, heed its wisdom: maybe sit the next couple of plays out, Champ.

[GAROVORKIN]

57 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'm not accusing you of prejudice, but it's very easy for people who aren't in a group threatened by Nazi ideology to underestimate the threat. Just like how I, as a man, spent most of my life totally ignorant of how pervasive and damaging sexual harassment is. We all have our blind spots.

What you did, when someone said they were worried about their safety, was very patronizing and condescending. Rest assured that person you patronized has studied the issue more than you have. So it was ignorant on top of the condescension. And it carried the message that the other person's lived experience is not valid in the face of your ignorant self-assurance.

Dante , I didn't think.  That happens and probably will happen again with me.

 

With regard to Hitler,  a certain quote from Shakespeare comes to mind " The evil that men do lives after them " 

 

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think you’re getting that from him because he’s being attacked, somewhat unfairly, from a lot of sides. The way it’s being done is more likely going to shut down a conversation than produce something constructive.

As far as I can tell, ME is basically arguing that the left should stoop to the same tactics as the right. He’s just making the argument in a horrifically awful way.

Jesus fucking Christ, finally some perspective...what a stunningly sad  read through this has been until now. Many, I'm a bit dissapointed that you adopted the 'well, show how Briebart is wrong' position rather than try and find a better source to support your argument; you're much better than that. But I get that you were kinda getting bunker-vision. 

But I am so much more dissapointed in some of the posters I like here doing a pile-on with regards to Many's position. If we don't know each other by now, what the miserable fuck? 2 options: either Many has suddenly gone over to the dark side or his argument is not being heard, whether through poor communication, knee-jerk reactions or the new normal where you're either with us or against us. Or all three. And it never helps when a single-issue poster is hopping and barking all around the conversation. I don't get Many's exact argument as he's made it here, but having seen him make arguments many times, i feel extremely confident that he's not saying BLM = Nazis, or w/e.

He's saying that 2 murderers were disavowed by the groups they are thought to belong to (though from what I know BLM did so long before the Texas shootings whereas the Nazis only made that kind of noise after the fact). So while there are parallels to be made, they certainly aren't of similar value. And he's saying that conflating an individual action to a group as a whole is wrong, a position I generally agree with. I think he's chosen a bad illustration of that point, though...but that doesn't have me all Et Tu Manus?

There's a growing dynamic that despises the middle ground, and the pull comes from both extremes, often including myself as an 'extreme'. Moreover, many people from one extreme or the other falsely cite 'middle ground' as their defense. That those people are false does not mean the concept of middle ground is false, it just means that they are trying to hide behind the foliage of others who are sincere. And some of the sincere middle grounders are just dupes and/or the family member who would rather no one ever talk about daddy's abuse because they just want w/e peace they've found to last. But there are other middle grounders with both sincerity and thoughtful insight, and they're getting lumped in with the fakes and the fools and the cowards by people who want there to be only one choice. And I've probably been guilty of that kind of thing myself...but when it gets to the point of turning on a guy we all know for what he is?

It would seem we're headed towards the ideological equivalent of burning down the village in order to save it. 

This has been a fucking depressing read. 

 

 

 

[DanteGabriel]

2 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Dante , I didn't think.  That happens and probably will happen again with me.

 

With regard to Hitler,  a certain quote from Shakespeare comes to mind " The evil that men do lives after them " 

 

You've made the same "Nazis are nothing to worry about" post at least a couple of times, and certainly after I (and many others who were more polite) made reasoned arguments about the rise of Nazi influence. So when are you planning to start thinking?

[IamMe90]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Sure, he could argue for even worse things.  There's always something worse.  But it doesn't mean what he's arguing now and has for years now isn't itself horrific.  He's always argued the pro nazi side of things for as long as I've been reading gen chat.  ALWAYS.  Yet Tywin constantly says it's not really what's in his heart. Well how are we supposed to know when he has shown no other side.  It's like all those people saying that overt white supremacy isn't in Trump's heart and yet his actions and words say exactly that it is.  

So when you said "the most horrific," you really just meant "horrific." Got it. When you said "he's always argued the pro nazi side of things for as long as I've been reading gen chat," you meant "for as long as this has been a topic of discussion on gen chat," which is actually a difference of several years. Got it. You consistently overstate things, usually in the most uncharitable manner possible  - again, got it. 

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

He's saying that 2 murderers were disavowed by the groups they are thought to belong to (though from what I know BLM did so long before the Texas shootings whereas the Nazis only made that kind of noise after the fact). So while there are parallels to be made, they certainly aren't of similar value. And he's saying that conflating an individual action to a group as a whole is wrong, a position I generally agree with. I think he's chosen a bad illustration of that point, though...but that doesn't have me all Et Tu Manus?

I think the real problem I had is that the Nazis did not disavow the murder of Heather Heyer, and in fact openly and freely celebrated it for a couple weeks after the fact until the police came down on them.

And as pointed out, they specifically planned to harm people in the exact way they did Heyer. 

Really, the whole thing started out weird and went weirder, and I don't think this is a middle ground kind of thing. If we were all saying something like "Republicans murdered Heather Heyer" that'd be one thing, but really - when people talk openly about hurting and killing others, a member of their group does that, and they cheer it, what the fuck middle ground is there to be had? 

Now I admit I take this a bit more personally than others, as people going around wearing Nazi regalia when I found out last year that I'm Jewish is a bit of shitty timing for me and my kids - but at the same time, being able to see middle grounds has a time and place, and I'm pretty firmly on the no middle ground for nazis part. If someone willingly wants to openly say that they are part of a group which espouses killing me because of my genetics, I'm not really for middle ground or tolerance here. 

 

[Gertrude]

This is an interesting read. Texts from Manafort's daughter to a friend.

Quote

 

AMS: Yup. Perfect allies. Trump probably has more morals than my dad. Which is really just saying something about my dad. My dad is a psycho!!! At least trump let his wives leave him. Plus, Trump has been a good father.

AMS: Trump waited a little too long in my opinion, but I can attest to the fact that he has now hired one of the world’s greatest manipulators. I hope my dad pulls it off. Then I can sell my memoir with all his dirty secrets for a pretty penny.

 

Jesus. It might be a good use of Mueller's time to work on flipping his family against him.

[GAROVORKIN]

9 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

You've made the same "Nazis are nothing to worry about" post at least a couple of times, and certainly after I (and many others who were more polite) made reasoned arguments about the rise of Nazi influence. So when are you planning to start thinking?

You've made your point Dante. 

 

[Dr. Pepper]

11 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

So when you said "the most horrific," you really just meant "horrific." Got it. When you said "he's always argued the pro nazi side of things for as long as I've been reading gen chat," you meant "for as long as this has been a topic of discussion on gen chat," which is actually a difference of several years. Got it. You consistently overstate things, usually in the most uncharitable manner possible  - again, got it. 

I havne't been reading gen chat for as many years as I've been a member of this forum.  So yeah, it's been a couple years now and since I've come along to this side of the site, ME has always argued the pro-nazi side of things.  Yes, I'm as uncharitable as possible when it comes to his ilk.  It's necessary.  I don't dress that shit up.  Sorrynotsorry.

[Mexal]

15 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

This is an interesting read. Texts from Manafort's daughter to a friend.

Jesus. It might be a good use of Mueller's time to work on flipping his family against him.

I have to imagine they're going to question his daughters given the hacked texts. There is even texts in there talking about Manafort murdering people.

[KingintheNorth4]

Good lord Manhole, you chose the worst hill to die on.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

They were the first two links that came up. I'm lazy, sue me.

And I fully understand and support your reluctance to populate those sites. I get it.

I am hardly Painfully Principled. I'm a moderate who's cursed with a True Neutral Dungeons and Dragons Ethical Alignment. I tend to see that both sides of an argument can be reasonably made, more often than not. That's my default.

Laziness should be sued when the matters discussed are as significant as these are.  You still just don't think any of this matters in the real world.  Dungeons and Dragons is a fake world it is not real it is not this political and material world in which all of us who aren't sitting as old fogeys still playing games that are for children and spend the rest of their time as you do hooting at u-tubeys. This is why you get clobbered so much when you think you are a good guy who doesn't deserve it -- because you still put all this in game parameters when we others are real world targets and so are our friends and families and the environment and everything else we hold dear and precious.

[polishgenius]

18 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

This has been a fucking depressing read.

Yup. Certain personal grudges and inabilities to take any form of disagreement have been increasingly distorting these topics in recent times. I don't agree with ME's framing or premise at all on this, but I'm not at all surprised he's gotten sloppy in his arguments given the complete absence of nuance encouraged and even people who I think are intending to argue with him in good faith end up getting swept into what becomes a pile on. Who wants to deal with that shit? I mean, on a personal level he'd be better off quitting but these threads and this board will be poorer for it if they become the totalitarian nodalong with occasional cameo from genuine out-there right winger everyone can shout at that Dr. Pepper would like them to be.

[DanteGabriel]

14 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

This is an interesting read. Texts from Manafort's daughter to a friend.

Jesus. It might be a good use of Mueller's time to work on flipping his family against him.

May Manafort die penniless and alone in a shitty federal prison, abandoned by friends, sold out by former allies, and disavowed by his family.  And fuck his kids too, because they know full well where their cushy lives came from.

[GAROVORKIN]

5 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

May Manafort die penniless and alone in a shitty federal prison, abandoned by friends, sold out by former allies, and disavowed by his family.  And fuck his kids too, because they know full well where their cushy lives came from.

 

When he gets out of Prison he'll write a book , Hollywood will option it and he'll make millions, he'll become a popular lecturer on the college campus circuit and makes lots of money on speaking fees .  Those birds always land on their feet.

Not as far fetched as it sounds.

[Ser Reptitious]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It's not technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. She was killed by "a nazi". 

https://i.imgur.com/6y06NQc.gif

 

Ok, I'm mostly just a lurker here, but I really feel like we are through the looking glass here. Are you seriously implying that Nazis generally aren't keen on killing (certain sorts of) people and that therefore blaming Heather Heyer's death on them as a group is somehow deeply unfair to them? 

 

By your own admission she was killed by "a nazi". Are you really going to go "whoa, whoa, whoa, let's not blame all Nazis, that would taint their reputation..." ?

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yup. Certain personal grudges and inabilities to take any form of disagreement have been increasingly distorting these topics in recent times. I don't agree with ME's framing or premise at all on this, but I'm not at all surprised he's gotten sloppy in his arguments given the complete absence of nuance encouraged and even people who I think are intending to argue with him in good faith end up getting swept into what becomes a pile on. Who wants to deal with that shit? I mean, on a personal level he'd be better off quitting but these threads and this board will be poorer for it if they become the totalitarian nodalong with occasional cameo from genuine out-there right winger everyone can shout at that Dr. Pepper would like them to be.

I think this is fair, and yet I find someone who I had respected arguing about whether or not Nazis killed people. When we have evidence showing they planned to kill people, did kill people, and then congratulated the killer afterwards and hoped there would be more killing.

This bothers me. It bothers me because if my kids get killed because they're Jewish, or I do, and we get the rhetoric of 'oh, it was just some crazy person and it wasn't ALL nazis' - is that where we want to go? I don't want to spend my time convincing other people that there are a group of people out there who genuinely would be happy to kill me and my two boys because of their bloodline, and I don't want to spend a bunch of time convincing others that this is an actual, genuine threat and not just a bunch of people doing it for the lulz - because we already have deaths as a result of this. 

I guess for me, the question of whether it's one nazi or all nazis is moot, as every single person who takes up the Nazi symbology is condoning if not outright demanding the death of people like me. It's not something that is some odd thought experiment in my life any more, and I'll personally own that it should never have been even before I found out about my heritage. 

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

I think the real problem I had is that the Nazis did not disavow the murder of Heather Heyer, and in fact openly and freely celebrated it for a couple weeks after the fact until the police came down on them.

And as pointed out, they specifically planned to harm people in the exact way they did Heyer. 

Really, the whole thing started out weird and went weirder, and I don't think this is a middle ground kind of thing. If we were all saying something like "Republicans murdered Heather Heyer" that'd be one thing, but really - when people talk openly about hurting and killing others, a member of their group does that, and they cheer it, what the fuck middle ground is there to be had? 

Now I admit I take this a bit more personally than others, as people going around wearing Nazi regalia when I found out last year that I'm Jewish is a bit of shitty timing for me and my kids - but at the same time, being able to see middle grounds has a time and place, and I'm pretty firmly on the no middle ground for nazis part. If someone willingly wants to openly say that they are part of a group which espouses killing me because of my genetics, I'm not really for middle ground or tolerance here. 

 

Not the act, they disavowed him as a member of their group, no? That's what was said earlier in this discussion. 

 

As for where there's middle ground, you know me. You know that I've been crying fascist as long as anyone around here, about Trump in particular and his at least 'bigotry tolerant' supporters. (Though I'll again say he's more Mussolini than Hitler) back when that was met with many a rolled eye. So I'm not a nazi apologist. But I think the 'punch a nazi' concept is wrong across the board. It's wrong as a tactic , because it's from the fascist own playbook. It's wrong as an idea because it says ideas can rightfully be opposed by violence. That's a double edged danger that just signals war. Now while I personally think the oft-argued 'pushing neutrals into the other camp' deal is bullshit...if you can align with bigots because of their being treated unfairly you were already heading their way. I mean, what would it take for a middle-grounder to hold a hose at Birmingham?...but I can see that adopting fascist tactics to combat fascism could and almost certainly would keep a lot of middle grounders from joining our side. So it's also bad strategy. 

I have more, but the point is almost anything I can say has been said, and has probably been said by bigots trying to hide their bigotry. That doesn't invalidate the argument, though. McCarthy did actually find some genuine Soviet spies by condemning anyone who preached the ethos they hid behind. So, while I myself find it tempting too often, we really ought to be careful about saying that an argument is false if false people use it. 

As for you and yours, I can't imagine what it feels like to be targeted by that kind of aimed hatred. I think any Nazis openly espousing murder and violence ought to be treated as criminals by the justice system, but I don't think anything gets better by individuals getting preemptive with guns or fists, even if/when the CJS is either incapable of stopping them or even indeed protecting them. If you feel genuinely endangered, I'd say you should move before I'd say you should resort to running plays from the fascist playbook, and that's not sarcasm. I understand moving is a big fucking deal, and I understand the fact that the victim is therefore bearing the cost of the attacker's ideology, but then again the alternative...getting preemptively violent yourself...is also a huge fucking deal with huge costs for you, too. We're not offered any good options right now. 

But imo none of this explains turning on our own in here. Manhole's a known commodity. Occam's Razor should have clearly pointed towards miscommunication rather than exiling Many to Them. Even when he was being a bit of a twit...I mean, known commodity, right?