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Kalbear

The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

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So, sorry to interrupt Gender Wars:  Episode MMDCXXII - A New Despair, but just saw another interview with Johnson with interesting comments on Rey's parents:

Quote

“What’s going to make life hardest on her? It would be the big ‘I am your father’ twist [from ‘The Empire Strikes Back’],” Johnson said, referring to the scene in Episode V when Darth Vader spills the beans on Luke Skywalker’s parentage. The director explained that Luke (Mark Hamill) learning Vader is his father is “the hardest thing the character could possibly hear in that moment.” 

“And same thing with Rey and her parentage,” he said. “The easy thing would be, ‘Yes, your parents are so and so and here’s your place in the world. There you go.’ The hardest thing she could hear would be [...] ‘No, you’re not going to get the answer. This is not going to define you. You’re going to have to find your own place in this world. Kylo is going to use that even as leverage to try and make you feel insecure, and you’re going to have to stand on your own two feet.’” 

And on whether this "confirms" her parents:

Quote

“Anything’s still open, and I’m not writing the next film. [J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio] are doing it,” he said. [...]

The director previously told Collider that Kylo was sincere in his remarks, but he elaborated to HuffPost that the truth might depend on how you look at things.

“With all of these movies, Obi-Wan’s whole speech about a certain point of view always applies, so I think that you have to always think about the context of how information is given. But for me, dramatically, that’s why that reveal at that moment made sense,” Johnson said.

My interpretation of all this hedging is Johnson suspects Abrams is going to do something different.  Of course, it could just be him doing his duty to keep fan interest up.

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2 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

The vast difference in styles between ep 7 and 8 remind me of the way the old EU story ines would sway vastly in tone when the authors switched off.

Nothing like going from Aaron Allison trying to have some iota of nuance with Jacen's fall to the dark side to Karen Traviss gleefully announcing that Madalorian aggression conquers all!

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1 hour ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Buddy of mine with questionable taste (likes the prequels, kinda) made a fun observation.

Kylo Ren is a better Sith than we've ever seen by far.

This dude is straight Darth Nihilus at this point.

Can't say I disagree.

He's certainly a different type of Sith. I love that he seems to wallow in his negative emotions in a way that Vader never did, although it was pretty hard to emote in the Vader costume, I suppose. But anyway, losing the helmet does help Ren. And you can see him choose the paths that provoke those negative emotions in him: not just cruelty, but rage, sorrow, etc.

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

Ahahahahaha!

Oh dear. Can there be a clearer sign of desperation than starting a post this way?

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

Yoda is a male principal character in the Last Jedi? Oh my you are reaching here Mormont, your arms must be hurting like hell.

So Yoda, who is in this film for a hilarious and ill-conceived two minutes is a principal male character, but Rose's sister ( Page Tico) who in a lengthy scene singlehandedly unleashes the Resistance Bomber and destroys the Mega Dreadnought at the start of the film,is not?

OK. Quote me one line of Paige Tico's dialogue.

I'll wait.

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

Why not throw C-3PO in there as well? Oh wait, you actually did that. What about the black BB8, he's a principal male character as well right? 

Neither principal cast nor, so far as we can tell, of determinate gender (unlike C-3PO, who has always presented as male). That's why BB-8 himself isn't on my list, although he appears in the film quite a lot.

But sure. Let's lose C-3PO, Chewie, Yoda too, if you like, even DJ. But then we have to cut Phasma, and probably Holdo, too, if we're honest, because her part is only slightly more substantial than those others. Certainly we have to cut all the other characters you culled from those stubs on Wookiepedia. So we wind up with the absolute core cast of nine: six male, three female (Ren, Hux, Snoke, Finn, Poe, Luke, Leia, Rey and Rose). No stretches there. Heck, you can put Holdo back in, if you like. It's still a majority male cast: core, extended or full. It's still a majority male crew at all levels and it's still almost all men in key, powerful creative roles. It's a step towards equality, but it is not actual equality, still less something that any honest person could say has gone too far in the direction of including women.

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28 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

The vast difference in styles between ep 7 and 8 remind me of the way the old EU story ines would sway vastly in tone when the authors switched off.

Yeah, that's a very good point.  I loved all of the EU stuff, so didn't mind to much, but it could be a bit jarring at times.

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27 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

The vast difference in styles between ep 7 and 8 remind me of the way the old EU story ines would sway vastly in tone when the authors switched off.

I liked the movie but you do have to wonder what the hell they were thinking not plotting out the major points of this new trilogy ahead of time. Even Lucas supposedly had an outline before he started. Whereas here we have JJ Abrams going in to pitch the story of IX after TLJ came out. Weird. Especially since this is the same company that does the Marvel movies. 

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8 hours ago, Calibandar said:

A New Hope is nothing like Last Jedi in its portrayal of the male characters and it seems to  me to be wilfully ignorant to try and pretend New Hope has similar treatment. If that were released today you would see nothing like the sort of anger you see now. Wildly different, as you can surely see if you give it a fair look.

I don't know what else to tell you mate, if you're sincerely trying to disagree that in A New Hope ...

  1. Leia is portrayed as flawless, or - using your words - "efficient, largely free of fault, wise and in charge"
  2. Luke starts out as weak, incompetent, constantly in need of rescue and guidance (loses droid, beat to hell by sand people, beat down in Mos Eisley Cantina, etc.)
  3. Han starts out as egotistical and selfish
  4. Both Luke and Han eventually overcome at least some of their flaws and choose to fight for Perfect Leia's cause

... I can't be sure you actually understand half as much as you think you understand about Star Wars.

Neither Poe nor Finn are as incompetent at the opening of The Last Jedi as Luke is when we meet him in A New Hope, and Luke turns his back on the battle in The Last Jedi not because he's suffering from the Han-esque sin of self-centredness but out of a righteous and deep-seated guilt. Luke's flaw is not cowardice nor incompetence, but simply a lack of self-belief regarding his own still-monumental power to save the day. And it's not a girl who convinces him he was wrong, it's Yoda, an old dude.

 

6 hours ago, Eggegg said:

So it’s fantastic that Rose exists because she’s female AND Asian! Forget that she’s an irritant as a character and wildly out of place in the franchise with her comedic style and bumbling mannerisms. She gets a pass. 

I actually agree with some of the other points you've been making and don't really love the way Rose is characterized myself, but Threepio and Finn both have a "comedic style and bumbling mannerisms". If they are not "wildly out of place" in Star Wars, then why is Rose?

 

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

So, sorry to interrupt Gender Wars:  Episode MMDCXXII - A New Despair, but just saw another interview with Johnson with interesting comments on Rey's parents:

And on whether this "confirms" her parents:

My interpretation of all this hedging is Johnson suspects Abrams is going to do something different.  Of course, it could just be him doing his duty to keep fan interest up.

What Johnson says here is 100% in line with my own thoughts. Even though my hope all along was that Rey would be the spawn of "nobodies", The Last Jedi has done nothing to convince me that the question of Rey's parents is now closed.

In The Last Jedi Kylo Ren tells Rey she knows her parents and demands she say it out loud. And she does say it out loud. "They were nobodies." It's Rey, not Kylo Ren, who reveals this to us. Rey has known all along. And this is entirely consistent with The Force Awakens, which showed us that Rey was not a tiny, oblivious baby when she was left behind, but already a little girl, easily old enough to know her parents.

BUT ... all we know is Rey remembers being left by some people she believed were her birth parents. If she was separated from her actual birth parents as a tiny oblivious baby and never told this by the nobodies who raised her then she would not know her actual birth parents. 

And so, unfortunately, it is still entirely up to JJ Abrams whether or not Rey's belief that her parents were nobodies is the "truth".

 

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16 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Whereas here we have JJ Abrams going in to pitch the story of IX after TLJ came out. Weird. Especially since this is the same company that does the Marvel movies. 

Right?  They've seen up close Kevin Feige shepherd the MCU through much more complicated terrain than a simple trilogy.  Can't help but feel this is on Kennedy.

5 minutes ago, Davrum said:

BUT ... all we know is Rey remembers being left by some people she believed were her birth parents. If she was separated from her actual birth parents as a tiny oblivious baby and never told this by the nobodies who raised her then she would not know her actual birth parents. 

And so, unfortunately, it is still entirely up to JJ Abrams whether or not Rey's belief that her parents were nobodies is the "truth".

Yep, I think this is a strong possibility - and has the potential to piss people off exponentially more than those enraged Rey had "nobody" parents in the first place.

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46 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Nothing like going from Aaron Allison trying to have some iota of nuance with Jacen's fall to the dark side to Karen Traviss gleefully announcing that Madalorian aggression conquers all!

I actually liked Karen Traviss SW books quite a lot. I was thinking of went it went Aaron(RIP) -> Golden -> Denning.

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22 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I liked the movie but you do have to wonder what the hell they were thinking not plotting out the major points of this new trilogy ahead of time. Even Lucas supposedly had an outline before he started. Whereas here we have JJ Abrams going in to pitch the story of IX after TLJ came out. Weird. Especially since this is the same company that does the Marvel movies. 

If you mean the OT, those were written in the exact same way as the new trilogy is being written, perhaps even more so. They really made Empire and Jedi up as they went along.  If you've ever seen Lucas original treatment for Empire...well let's say its a bit different.

As for the prequels, well, I try not to think about those.

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1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

I actually liked Karen Traviss SW books quite a lot. I was thinking of went it went Aaron(RIP) -> Golden -> Denning.

Hard Contact was pretty good but after that she went to hard with the Mandos are awesome stuff. Denning is still the worst though.

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Actually my favorite EU book is "I, Jedi" (forgot author). Is this the title? Star Wars meets Apocalpyse Now. Mace Windu channeling his inner Martin Sheen and confronting his iffy past as he gets swallowed by the jungle in a treacherous search-and-rescue mission. It might be the darkest of the EU novels too. God, how I would  have loved to see Vergere on the big screen or some variation thereof. If we had spin-offsin the 90's. Now Sam Jackson is too old and they'd never do it, it's Non-Canon. 

 

So many great alien characters created in the old EU, not just the humans ones. So far, I haven't seen any alien character in the new trilogy that captures the imagination the same way. Maz is fun but well, maybe she needs more time to be developed. This new franchise is only 2 yrs old after all. 

 

I used to collect the EU novels but don't have as much time to read or disposable income as I did in the the 90's- early 2000's. A lot to catch up on, I have. I guess I'm prejudiced too. The 90's books seem to be better-written, for audiences who still read books and were not yet influenced by social media. A lot of today's novels, from the ones I've read, a lot  read like fleshed-out screenplays for people whose reading is mostly Twitter. OK, maybe I'm wrong. But after the Yuuzon Vong I sort of tuned out. 

I've seen a little of the Asoka cartoons and that's it. I have SO MUCH to catch up on...

My old EU faves: --Anything written by Timothy Zahn

                            --Anything written by Jude Watson  (I'm sorry, I love them, esp the young Obi-wan ones)

                            --Rogue Planet

 

                              --the Lando Calrissian Trilogy (as someone said way back, some WACKY stuff)

                            -The Han Solo Trilogy (*sigh* if only THIS was what they were making now! It's darned perfect!) 

                            -Tales From The Mos Eisley Cantina (forget The Shape Of Water. There's a story in here that 

                            remains my favorite inter-species romance of all time, still brings me to tears. No, it's NOT                                         "Nightlily"  lol)

                             --Outbound Flight

                             --the grown-up Obi-wan one (I know, titles? We get to know Owen Lars's father?)

 

 

the best of the new Canon so far? Recommendations please? I just finished Phasma, which was actually pretty darn good, and that collection of kid's stories, the one with the chef contest etc. 

 

EDIT: Thanks for that, Seli. I mean numbers. 

And just to throw in my 2 cents: I love Rose. She's cute as a button and I thought how great it is that she's nobody, just a mechanic who gets caught up in all this, but she's no Force-user or related to one, or  anyone famous,  or a fighter pilot. She'd be the person an ordinary viewer can relate to. She's one of the things the film got right. 

The first time I saw her character I had a fleeting moment of, "OK, gotta cater to that Chinese global market now" (We're seeing this in a lot of blockbusters BTW) but I repeat, it was just fleeting, b/c this is Star Wars, that most inclusive of universes from the get-go. IMO. She's perfectly at home and there's nothing strange about her. 

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Thanks Seli. I don't put much on $ totals though, b/c of inflation. I mean, in my town IMAX/RPX tickets are almost $20 now.  And this is not NYC or California. Average ticket price here has jumped to about $13 for regular screenings, $10.75 for matinees (!). I've always been more interested in the number of actual tickets sold. If ticket prices continue to rise exponentially like this, something has to give. Throw in price of concessions, price of finding a babysitter etc and going to the movies is more and more a challenge and many take the Netflix route. 

I mean, it's all well and good for the majorest of major tent-poles to gross boffo box-office, but what about everything else?People save up money for movies like SW movies b/c it's a family tradition and they know it'll be good to some extant, but increasingly the slate look lop-sided.  I read an article earlier this year about the glut of franchise films supposed to hit the screens in 2018, some are talking about a box-office bubble. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

It might be the darkest of the EU novels too.



I'd suggest that both the best and the darkest old EU novel was Traitor, but that was by the same author (Matthew Stover) so no surprise. Shatterpoint was much more standalone, though, since Traitor makes no sense without some NJO context.

Like DR says, it's Shatterpoint you're thinking of.

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37 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think that Mace Windu book is Shatterpoint.

Yeah, I,Jedi was Michael A. Stackpole inserting Corran Horn into the Jedi Academy trilogy.

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2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I actually liked Karen Traviss SW books quite a lot. I was thinking of went it went Aaron(RIP) -> Golden -> Denning.

Imperial Commando 2 not getting done really pissed me off at the time. Sure, she was getting a little over the top with the Mando stuff, but those books were great. 

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4 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yep, I think this is a strong possibility - and has the potential to piss people off exponentially more than those enraged Rey had "nobody" parents in the first place.

Not only that, but JJ still has the option to have Force ghost Luke sit on a log and tell Rey how Snoke came to power and was able to have such a galaxy-changing effect on the lives of Luke, Leia and Han.

As the writer/director of Episode IX JJ can still, retroactively, add so much more to the journeys of the OT heroes in this new trilogy by having Luke tell Rey/us that missing part of the saga, in the same way as Obi-wan did for Luke/us in the OT. More importantly, the more we know about how Snoke influenced Ben/Kylo, the richer the character of new Supreme Leader becomes.

In general it doesn't necessarily enhance any given story to know more about its antagonist's backstory (I particularly love how Nolan handles this aspect of The Joker in The Dark Knight) but in this particular story, a case in which the backstory of the antagonist is inextricably linked to the stories of several of the heroes, it can only serve to enhance the whole.

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