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Kalbear

The Last Jedi (spoilers): Only a Sith deals in plot holes

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OK, thanks for the proper title guys. I admit I haven't revisited most of the old EU in years,so I've forgotten a lot of titles etc.  And I know I haven't read Traitor, so I'll have to check that out. Who/what is that book about?

I know I did check out the novel where a depressed Luke becomes a reclusive, whiny hermit at some point--and actually blushed at how godawful it was..:) Was that a KJA book? he's the worst of the old EU authors IMO. 

Davrum, it's nice to speculate on JJ possibly attempting to repair some of the damage by bringing Luke back as a Force ghost, but hasn't his name vanished from the IMDB cast list for Ep. 9?

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1 hour ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

OK, thanks for the proper title guys. I admit I haven't revisited most of the old EU in years,so I've forgotten a lot of titles etc.  And I know I haven't read Traitor, so I'll have to check that out. Who/what is that book about?

I know I did check out the novel where a depressed Luke becomes a reclusive, whiny hermit at some point--and actually blushed at how godawful it was..:) Was that a KJA book? he's the worst of the old EU authors IMO. 

Davrum, it's nice to speculate on JJ possibly attempting to repair some of the damage by bringing Luke back as a Force ghost, but hasn't his name vanished from the IMDB cast list for Ep. 9?

Mark Hamil is contracted to appear in Ep. IX

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Yeah I'd bet real money on Force Ghost Luke showing up in 9.

I actually enjoy most the old EU that's set pre NJO. Some of the NJO and post has a few good ones but they kind of don't stand alone, as mentioned.

And as much as KJA can fuck off, the worst Star Wars book, old or new, is Dawn of the Jedi. Good lord, that book is like...there are no words. Like, the newest Goodkind book is better.

As for the new EU, I'd say avoid Aftermath and its sequels, otherwise I need to catch up, but I liked Tarkin. Heard good things about Phasma, Bloodlines, and Thrawn.

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5 hours ago, Davrum said:

Not only that, but JJ still has the option to have Force ghost Luke sit on a log and tell Rey how Snoke came to power and was able to have such a galaxy-changing effect on the lives of Luke, Leia and Han.

...

Why would Rey need to know that story? As it currently stands it has no impact on her at all.

Perhaps it is something Kylo Ren needs to hear. But he is such a great character on his own at this moment I don't see why he would need more backstory. Unless it can be used to twist his arc in interesting directions.

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6 hours ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

And I know I haven't read Traitor, so I'll have to check that out. Who/what is that book about?



Traitor's a book in the middle of the New Jedi Order series, about the invasion of the galaxy by the outside threat of the Yuuzhan Vong (a rather cool enemy who work entirely of biological technology and don't register in the force), largely concerned with Jacen Solo- son of Han and Leia- as his moral viewpoints are challenged after his capture by said Vong.

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On retconning the Rey's parentage reveal: I mean, yeah, that's not impossible or anything but it would surely require some careful handling. It would need to be relevant to the narrative of IX, and not just some awkward continuity nerdery inserted to placate hardcore fans.That means, as I've noted before, it can only really work if Rey's parents are someone the casual viewer has heard of, who is important to the plot of these films. The problem is that none of those candidates really work, and they never have. Luke? Leia? Han? Obi-Wan? Snoke? All have enormous problems. Who else is there?

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Rey's parentage reveal is one of the few things I liked in TLJ, so I would be super pissed if they retconned it so she was the daughter of like Ben Kenobi or something. 

Star Wars already has an issue where it feels incredibly small, every time the entire galaxy rests on a tiny number of individuals, who's lineage is somehow the most important factor, the smaller it appears. 

The worst thing they could do now is try to reverse the sliver of good ideas that were created in TLJ

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15 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I've seen it speculated DJ is her father.

That would be kind of a damp squib, though, wouldn't it?

'You thought your parents were nobodies, but the twist is that your father was actually this character you've never met, who's appeared in one film, and has no Force connections'.

'Uh, OK'.

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6 minutes ago, mormont said:

That would be kind of a damp squib, though, wouldn't it?

'You thought your parents were nobodies, but the twist is that your father was actually this character you've never met, who's appeared in one film, and has no Force connections'.

'Uh, OK'.



I think finding out her father is the guy who sold the resistance out and nearly got everyone killed would be devastating enough to make up for the narrative not being 'he was important in the force'? It'd reinforce what Johnson was going for- you don't have to be the child of legends to be a legend- fit with what we can assume of her parents characters if Ren is telling the truth while also potentially legitimising her memory of the ship, and simultaneously offering an 'I am your father' moment that isn't just a ripoff of 'I am your father'.

I think it's a great idea actually and now that I know about it I'll be disappointed if that's not the route they take...

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55 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Rey's parentage reveal is one of the few things I liked in TLJ, so I would be super pissed if they retconned it so she was the daughter of like Ben Kenobi or something. 

Star Wars already has an issue where it feels incredibly small, every time the entire galaxy rests on a tiny number of individuals, who's lineage is somehow the most important factor, the smaller it appears. 

I’d be happy if they never mentioned her parents again. Think that the way it was handled in TLJ was pretty much perfect.

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2 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

I’d be happy if they never mentioned her parents again. Think that the way it was handled in TLJ was pretty much perfect.

The real problem was the way Abrams’ set it up in TFA, seeding many hints that her parentage was relevant. I hated that then and I’d hate it if he brought it back. 

I always felt like J.J wrote a list of all the elements he thought made Star Wars successful and just made sure to add them in whether they made for good storytelling or not. The force only moving through certain bloodlines being one of them. 

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1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

I think finding out her father is the guy who sold the resistance out and nearly got everyone killed would be devastating enough to make up for the narrative not being 'he was important in the force'? It'd reinforce what Johnson was going for- you don't have to be the child of legends to be a legend- fit with what we can assume of her parents characters if Ren is telling the truth while also potentially legitimising her memory of the ship, and simultaneously offering an 'I am your father' moment that isn't just a ripoff of 'I am your father'.

Fair point. Maybe it could work.

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Can we talk about treatment of aliens in this movie, especially by Rey? Does anyone else think that she is a total dick towards Chewie? All she does is bark orders at him and he just kind of takes it, doing what he's told. As if he was a pet,  and not a 300 year old Legend/hero. Luke is kind of a dick towards him too, showing more emotion at being reunited with R2 than with Chewie. 

And then we have the caretakers of the island, who i believe Rey refers to as "those things". Things, really? These creatures (who are very stereotypically dressed as maids, undermining the "feminist" themes of the movie) keep the island in order and she barely pays them any mind whatsoever. AND she nearly fucking kills two of them and doesn't as much as apologize. 

Meanwhile the fucking greatest admiral of the Rebellion is killed after speaking one line, and barely even gets mentioned afterwards. There also seems to be a real lack of non humans in the ever thinning ranks. 

WTF? 

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5 minutes ago, Relic said:

Can we talk about treatment of aliens in this movie, especially by Rey? Does anyone else think that she is a total dick towards Chewie? All she does is bark orders at him and he just kind of takes it, doing what he's told. As if he was a pet,  and not a 300 year old Legend/hero. Luke is kind of a dick towards him too, showing more emotion at being reunited with R2 than with Chewie. 

And then we have the caretakers of the island, who i believe Rey refers to as "those things". Things, really? These creatures (who are very stereotypically dressed as maids, undermining the "feminist" themes of the movie) keep the island in order and she barely pays them any mind whatsoever. AND she nearly fucking kills two of them and doesn't as much as apologize. 

Meanwhile the fucking greatest admiral of the Rebellion is killed after speaking one line, and barely even gets mentioned afterwards. There also seems to be a real lack of non humans in the ever thinning ranks. 

WTF? 

Hey, at least Poe hugged that one alien pilot at the end.

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I guess I shouldn't be re-igniting this storm again, but I just saw this article, in Vanity Fair of all places:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017

Lets be clear, I wasn't on board with most of the arguments about male treatment in the movie, but then here we are with a major publication saying things like:

Quote

This message—women being largely right, and men being mostly wrong—extends to most but not all aspects of The Last Jedi.

And Laura Dern mentioned how important pushing a feminist theme in this movie was to Johnson. 

So really TLJ is about how 'mansplaining' is the real dark side of the galaxy?
 

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Apparently Last Jedi is also a protest movie against Trump and conservatism:

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/18/from-vietnam-to-trump-the-last-jedi-as-protest-film

A movie about how to defeat tyranny through community.. also a Trump protest movie
Anti-empire, pro-activist … The Last Jedi is as left wing as Jeremy Corbyn

and again:
Why 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi's Political Themes Are a Rally Cry for 2018
and again:
https://theconversation.com/the-last-jedi-latest-star-wars-is-a-fable-for-our-post-truth-times-89256
 "a contender for the most unambiguously political Star Wars movie yet."

I find the discussion around this movie more interesting than the movie itself. So many news outlets unabashedly crowbarring political discussion into their reviews. Its not surprising that nerds on the internet get angry about movies that seemingly go out of their way to make political statements and sacrifice good storytelling in order to do that. 
I don't know that is what has happened to this movie, but it certainly opens itself up to that criticism by being flagrant in its messaging.

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8 hours ago, mormont said:

it can only really work if Rey's parents are someone the casual viewer has heard of, who is important to the plot of these films.

Rey doesn't want to know who her parents were, she wants to know why they abandoned her and what happened to them. It would easy to throw in an easter egg like "Ezra" or "Mara" in the course of explaining that without it needing to mean anything to most of the audience. The timing would be about right for wanting to hide her from Snoke (he starts targeting Ben around then).

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10 hours ago, Seli said:

Why would Rey need to know that story? As it currently stands it has no impact on her at all.

As it currently stands Snoke has a multi-faceted impact on Rey.

  1. In the same way as Luke needed to know all he could about Vader in order to defeat (or turn) him, Rey needs to know as much as possible about Kylo Ren if she is to defeat (or turn) him, and Snoke has done more to shape the Solo kid than any other character.
  2. Rey still has massive holes in her knowledge of the nature of the Force - holes which the books alone will be inadequate in filling - and Snoke is the best example Force Ghost Luke (or Yoda or Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon or Jar-Jar ...) could use to shine a whole bunch of light on the dark side aspect of the whole deal.
  3. Similarly, Snoke is the best example for how an agent of the dark side may have a monumental, life-changing effect on even a jedi master like Luke, and if Rey is to become a jedi master as is strongly indicated by Luke at the end of The Last Jedi, she better study up hard on this stuff.

Her foe Kylo Ren has now moved into the Snoke position. The more Rey knows about Snoke the more she knows - from multiple angles - about Kylo Ren, and about Luke, who is almost certain to have a role as a Force guide in Episode IX.

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