If Aegon is fake, does Jon Con know?

[Bloodraven's Spider]

16 hours ago, Makk said:

Jon Connington doesn't know he is a fake. As others have said he wants to believe and he isn't clever enough to figure out what possible motivation Varys could have to lie. 

But Tyrion is clever enough and so is Arianne. It will be interesting whether Connington supports him if if he finally  realises he has been tricked. 

 

Arianne is one of the dumbest wenches in the game...

[zandru]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

My guess, is that GRRM plans to make it known to JonCon, that fAegon is an imposter, and it will nearly break him. Though later he will be revived, when he will find out, that one of Rhaegar's children is alive. Furthermore, Rhaegar has even named this last child of his, in honor of Jon Connington.

This would be great - assuming Jon Snow actually is still alive.

Spoiler

If the show is a reliable guide, he is.

Jon's name - a good question! Was it Rhaegar's choice? Or Ned's? Or Ned deciding that he could justify "Jon" as homage to "Jon Arryn" and thus leaving Rhaegar and Lyanna's name in place? Either way, "Jon" was a good choice.

Also, you make a good point about "Young Griff's" differences from Rhaegar coming back to haunt Connington, should someone provide proof - or even doubt - of YG's ancestry. But I don't think he's allowing himself to experience any doubts just yet.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

My guess, is that GRRM plans to make it known to JonCon, that fAegon is an imposter, and it will nearly break him. Though later he will be revived, when he will find out, that one of Rhaegar's children is alive.

I did not mean it like that. Jon Conn has been raising Aegon. He thinks of him as Rhaegar's son because this is what he was told. But this is also a boy he may have come to think of as his son subconsciously. 

The difference between Ned and Jon Conn, two men who are raising another man's son is that Ned never allowed himself to think of Jon as Rhaegar's son. The first time he seems to think of it in those terms is when he leaves the brothel after meeting Barra and her mother. 

Jon Conn on the other hand doesn't seem to allow himself to cross that line and think of Aegon as his son. 

Quote

Furthermore, Rhaegar has even named this last child of his, in honor of Jon Connington.

No, Rhaegar did no such thing. Ned is the one who gave Jon his name. There's a GRRM SSM that confirms that Ned is the one who named Jon, likely for Jon Arryn. Ned named the boys after the important men in his life. Robb for Bobby B, Jon for Jon Arryn, Bran for Brandon and Rickon for Rickard.

If anything, this might indicate that Lyanna and Rhaegar may have picked a too Targaryen name for the baby which could not stand after the war.

[Vhagar's Ghost]

I think Jon Conn knows Faegon ain't Aegon, he's just pretending he is just to win back some glory. Or maybe Illyrio is a sneaky sneaky shit who has everybody fooled.

[zandru]

2 minutes ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

Or maybe Illyrio is a sneaky sneaky shit who has everybody fooled.

I'd say "this". And he, with his old partner Varys, know that Jon Connington is a particularly ripe target, what with his loss of face and title, the shame of his defeat and the defeat of his side (Targaryen), the death of his friend Rhaegar and, as far as the world knows, all of Rhaegar's children. Jon Conn is a man who wants to believe. I happen to think Jon is right - but am intrigued by the possibility of "Aegon" being a Blackfyre. That would be cool. On the other hand, the boy could just be some random Lyseni.

[bent branch]

On 7/10/2018 at 7:36 PM, Makk said:

No, in fact I believe quite the opposite. He knows Aegon is Illyrio's son.

Well, I have two quotes to back up my ascertian that Tyrion believes Aegon to be the true born son of Rhaegar and Elia. I am citing them below in answer to aryagonnakill#2 below. Do you have even one quote to back up yours?

20 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

When does he say or think this?

There are two places where Tyrion thinks of Aegon as both a prince and a Targaryen. The first takes place when Tyrion is listening to Benerro (italics the authors, the bolds and underlining mine) ADWD - Chapter 27:

Quote

The hairs on the back of Tyrion's neck began to prickle. Prince Aegon will find no friend here. The red priest spoke of ancient prophecy, a prophecy that foretold the coming of a hero to deliver the world from darkness. One hero. Not two. Daenerys has dragons, Aegon does not. The dwarf did not need to be a prophet himself to foresee how Benerro and his followers might react to a second Targaryen. Griff will see that too, surely, he thought, surprised to find how much he cared. 

You will notice in the bolds that Tyrion thinks of Aegon as both a prince and Targaryen. In case you think this was a fluke or GRRM just messed up, Tyrion again thinks of Aegon as both a prince and a Targaryen while discussing visions in the night fires with Moqorro in Chapter 33 - ADWD:

Quote

Griff, with his young prince. Could all that talk of the Golden Company sailing west have been a feint? Tyrion considered saying something, then thought better. It seemed to him that the prophecy that drove the red priests had room for just one hero. A second Targaryen would only serve to confuse them. “Have you seen these others in your fires?” he asked, warily.

It is clear that GRRM wants the readers to understand that whatever Haldon said after that game of Cyvasse, Tyrion found it credible and is convinced Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Elia.

18 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think this question is even more interesting. I am not so sure that Tyrion wholeheartedly accepts that Aegon is the son of Rhaegar. But if he does, I think it would be very easy for another character to persuade him to the contrary. I think Tyrion will support which ever version of the truth is in his own interest. 

And the underlined parts of the quotes are for you. In the first Tyrion is surprised to find out how much he cares and in the second Tyrion makes the conscious choice to protect Aegon with his silence. These emotions and actions indicate someone who has some emotional investment in Aegon's cause, not someone who is poised to sell Aegon out at the drop of a hat. Indeed, I have not seen one quote after Tyrion is taken by Jorah where Tyrion expresses any doubt about Aegon's identity at all. Most of the doubts people express about Tyrion's attitude toward Aegon come from their own feelings about Aegon, not the books.

And to answer the question posed in the OP, Jon Connington has no doubts about Aegon. Whatever story he was told to get him to join on to this endeavor must have been convincing. Once we find out what was told to Jon and Tyrion, will we readers also be convinced of Aegon's legitimacy?

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Well, I have two quotes to back up my ascertian that Tyrion believes Aegon to be the true born son of Rhaegar and Elia. I am citing them below in answer to aryagonnakill#2 below. Do you have even one quote to back up yours?

There are two places where Tyrion thinks of Aegon as both a prince and a Targaryen. The first takes place when Tyrion is listening to Benerro (italics the authors, the bolds and underlining mine) ADWD - Chapter 27:

You will notice in the bolds that Tyrion thinks of Aegon as both a prince and Targaryen. In case you think this was a fluke or GRRM just messed up, Tyrion again thinks of Aegon as both a prince and a Targaryen while discussing visions in the night fires with Moqorro in Chapter 33 - ADWD:

It is clear that GRRM wants the readers to understand that whatever Haldon said after that game of Cyvasse, Tyrion found it credible and is convinced Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Elia.

And the underlined parts of the quotes are for you. In the first Tyrion is surprised to find out how much he cares and in the second Tyrion makes the conscious choice to protect Aegon with his silence. These emotions and actions indicate someone who has some emotional investment in Aegon's cause, not someone who is poised to sell Aegon out at the drop of a hat. Indeed, I have not seen one quote after Tyrion is taken by Jorah where Tyrion expresses any doubt about Aegon's identity at all. Most of the doubts people express about Tyrion's attitude toward Aegon come from their own feelings about Aegon, not the books.

If not for those quote, I wouldn't even wonder about the question. But if you set aside judgement for a moment, then consider, for hypothetical purposes, a future in which Aegon is revealed to be a Blackfyre, and Tyron expressing some notion of having known all along, would those two quotes be entirely inconsistent? Or, do those two quotes leave some wiggle room for the author? 

To play devil's advocate, Aegon claims to be a prince, and Tyrion knows that is how Aegon will be introduced to the world, so, whatever his paternity, that's how Tyrion thanks of the noblest lad that ever lived. Similarly, Aegon claims to be a Targaryen, and Tyrion knows that is how Aegon will be introduced to the world, so again, that is how Tyrion thinks of the boy. 

Most importantly, it should be noted that in both quotes, Tyrion is considering how the red priests will react when they learn of Aegon. Presumably, when the red priests learn of Aegon, they will be told, and perhaps assume, that he is the son of Rhaegar. 

Finally, if Aegon is a Blackfyre, or even a pisswater prince, the author us clearly not ready to reveal it, so he can't allow Tyrion to refer to Aegon as an imposter in his POV. 

Your interpretation of the quotes does seems to be facially correct, but given the context of the possible subplot here, I am going to remain skeptical. That is why I only wonder whether Tyrion knows, and why i think it's a very interesting question. 

[bent branch]

14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If not for those quote, I wouldn't even wonder about the question. But if you set aside judgement for a moment, then consider, for hypothetical purposes, a future in which Aegon is revealed to be a Blackfyre, and Tyron expressing some notion of having known all along, would those two quotes be entirely inconsistent? Or, do those two quotes leave some wiggle room for the author? 

To play devil's advocate, Aegon claims to be a prince, and Tyrion knows that is how Aegon will be introduced to the world, so, whatever his paternity, that's how Tyrion thanks of the noblest lad that ever lived. Similarly, Aegon claims to be a Targaryen, and Tyrion knows that is how Aegon will be introduced to the world, so again, that is how Tyrion thinks of the boy. 

Most importantly, it should be noted that in both quotes, Tyrion is considering how the red priests will react when they learn of Aegon. Presumably, when the red priests learn of Aegon, they will be told, and perhaps assume, that he is the son of Rhaegar. 

Finally, if Aegon is a Blackfyre, or even a pisswater prince, the author us clearly not ready to reveal it, so he can't allow Tyrion to refer to Aegon as an imposter in his POV. 

Your interpretation of the quotes does seems to be facially correct, but given the context of the possible subplot here, I am going to remain skeptical. That is why I only wonder whether Tyrion knows, and why i think it's a very interesting question. 

What you are proposing would be a flat out lie on the part of GRRM. GRRM has maintained repeatedly that he is not a liar and that he never lies in his story. I believe GRRM when he says he doesn't lie. Therefore, I think you are fooling yourself on this issue. Anyway, why can't Tyrion be convinced of Aegon's legitimacy to later find out he was fooled? Why do you so badly need Tyrion to think Aegon is a fake and is ready to sell him out at a drop of a hat? Why do you have to explain away what is so plainly stated in the text?

[Stormking902]

IMO Jon Con wants fAegon to be real and that's all that really matters at the end of the day, Jon failed the love of his life "Rhegar" and is desperatly trying to write his wrongs with Faegon. If it came out young Griff was false he would still support him as if he was REAL. 

[Valyrian Lance]

On 7/10/2018 at 8:11 PM, Megorova said:

I also think, that he wants to believe in it, because it gives him hope, and purpose in life. Though it seems, that he does have some suspicions.

ADWD, The Griffin Reborn:

" “Lord Connington,” he said, “I like your castle.”

“Your father’s lands are beautiful,” he said. His silvery hair was blowing in the wind, and his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy’s."

He thinks, that Rhaegar's eyes were darker, and notices, that, unlike Young Griff, Rhaegar has valued beauty of nature, more than he valued material things. So JonCon is aware, that the boy, looks different from Rhaegar, and has different personality.

I like this. Usually when a person is comparing a son to his father, especially the memory of his father, people gravitate to how they are alike. He has his father's eyes, his father's cheek bones, whatever. In this case, he observes how they were a bit different. Of course he also says, "this boy's" rather than his son's.

[The Commentator]

On 7/10/2018 at 4:16 PM, Canon Claude said:

And moreover, how could he not know if it’s true? That’s the big hurdle I face in believing that Aegon is a false dragon. That and the fact that Varys wastes time trying to persuade a dying man that Aegon is the real deal, even though it doesn’t matter whether Kevan believes it or not). 

But back on topic, Connington surely wouldn’t have raised an imposter with such love and devotion if it wasn’t Rhaegar’s kid. And how would Connington have been fooled to think it was the real boy?

As you say, if it's true.  The support of the Golden Company does not prove the lad is a Blackfyre.  Maybe it's the Golden Company that's being deceived.  Maybe they could care less who he is.

[Valyrian Lance]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If not for those quote, I wouldn't even wonder about the question. But if you set aside judgement for a moment, then consider, for hypothetical purposes, a future in which Aegon is revealed to be a Blackfyre, and Tyron expressing some notion of having known all along, would those two quotes be entirely inconsistent? Or, do those two quotes leave some wiggle room for the author? 

To play devil's advocate, Aegon claims to be a prince, and Tyrion knows that is how Aegon will be introduced to the world, so, whatever his paternity, that's how Tyrion thanks of the noblest lad that ever lived. Similarly, Aegon claims to be a Targaryen, and Tyrion knows that is how Aegon will be introduced to the world, so again, that is how Tyrion thinks of the boy. 

Most importantly, it should be noted that in both quotes, Tyrion is considering how the red priests will react when they learn of Aegon. Presumably, when the red priests learn of Aegon, they will be told, and perhaps assume, that he is the son of Rhaegar. 

Finally, if Aegon is a Blackfyre, or even a pisswater prince, the author us clearly not ready to reveal it, so he can't allow Tyrion to refer to Aegon as an imposter in his POV. 

Your interpretation of the quotes does seems to be facially correct, but given the context of the possible subplot here, I am going to remain skeptical. That is why I only wonder whether Tyrion knows, and why i think it's a very interesting question. 

 

3 hours ago, bent branch said:

What you are proposing would be a flat out lie on the part of GRRM. GRRM has maintained repeatedly that he is not a liar and that he never lies in his story. I believe GRRM when he says he doesn't lie. Therefore, I think you are fooling yourself on this issue. Anyway, why can't Tyrion be convinced of Aegon's legitimacy to later find out he was fooled? Why do you so badly need Tyrion to think Aegon is a fake and is ready to sell him out at a drop of a hat? Why do you have to explain away what is so plainly stated in the text?

I find it interesting that in those quotes he thinks of Prince Aegon as a Targ and a prince, but he thinks of Jon Connington still as Griff.

[JNR]

Quote

If Aegon is fake, does Jon Con know?

No.  Not unless you think he's lying here:

Quote

Jon Connington reflected, leaning on the battlements of his forebears. I wanted the glory of slaying Robert in single combat, and I did not want the name of butcher. So Robert escaped me and cut down Rhaegar on the Trident. "I failed the father," he said, "but I will not fail the son."

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, bent branch said:

What you are proposing would be a flat out lie on the part of GRRM. GRRM has maintained repeatedly that he is not a liar and that he never lies in his story. I believe GRRM when he says he doesn't lie. Therefore, I think you are fooling yourself on this issue. Anyway, why can't Tyrion be convinced of Aegon's legitimacy to later find out he was fooled? Why do you so badly need Tyrion to think Aegon is a fake and is ready to sell him out at a drop of a hat? Why do you have to explain away what is so plainly stated in the text?

I explained why I think the author has left himself some wiggle room. I don't really have anything to add to that. As I said, your interpretation appears to facially correct. It could certainly play out that Tyrion will not say, "Oh, I knew it all along," but rather admit, "Wow, the cheesmonger fooled me." I ask myself quite often why I need so badly to consider any of this fiction, and I don't really know why I am obsessed to come here and discuss it, but for whatever reason I do. I enjoy the thoughtful exchange of these ideas, especially with commenters like yourself who see things differently then I do. 

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/10/2018 at 4:16 PM, Canon Claude said:

And moreover, how could he not know if it’s true? That’s the big hurdle I face in believing that Aegon is a false dragon. That and the fact that Varys wastes time trying to persuade a dying man that Aegon is the real deal, even though it doesn’t matter whether Kevan believes it or not). 

But back on topic, Connington surely wouldn’t have raised an imposter with such love and devotion if it wasn’t Rhaegar’s kid. And how would Connington have been fooled to think it was the real boy?

If Young Griff is someone other than Rhaegar's son Aegon (which I believe), Jon Connington was not let in on that fact. He is under the impression that Young Griff is Rhaegar's son Aegon, whether or not he has some doubts.

"He had failed Prince Rhaegar once. He would not fail his son, not whilst life remained in his body." (ADWD - The Lost Lord) "I failed the father," he said, "but I will not fail the son." (ADWD - The Griffen Reborn)

And it is doubtful he was made aware of the boy until around the time he faked his death to raise the boy, which was at least five years into his exile.

Jon was exiled after the Battle of the Bells, which was 17 years ago: "Seventeen years had come and gone since the Battle of the Bells, yet the sound of bells ringing still tied a knot in his guts." (ADWD - The Lost Lord)

Jon was in the Golden Company for 5 years: "Jon Connington might have been one of those successors if his exile had gone otherwise. He had spent five years with the company, rising from the ranks to a place of honor at Toyne's right hand." (ADWD - The Lost Lord)

Jon hasn't been with the Golden Company for a 12 years: "Twelve years is a long time. Even the men who'd ridden with him might not recognize the exile lord Jon Connington of the fiery red beard in the lined, clean-shaved face and dyed blue hair of the sellsword Griff. So far as most of them were concerned, Connington had drunk himself to death in Lys after being driven from the company in disgrace for stealing from the war chest. The shame of the lie still stuck in his craw, but Varys had insisted it was necessary. "We want no songs about the gallant exile," the eunuch had tittered, in that mincing voice of his. "Those who die heroic deaths are long remembered, thieves and drunks and cravens soon forgotten."(ADWD - The Lost Lord) "You do not know these men, my lord. It has been a dozen years since you last rode with the Golden Company, and your old friend is dead." (ADWD - The Lost Lord) ""You look awful, even for a man's been dead a dozen years."

[Bael's Bastard]

5 hours ago, bent branch said:

Well, I have two quotes to back up my ascertian that Tyrion believes Aegon to be the true born son of Rhaegar and Elia. I am citing them below in answer to aryagonnakill#2 below. Do you have even one quote to back up yours?

There are two places where Tyrion thinks of Aegon as both a prince and a Targaryen. The first takes place when Tyrion is listening to Benerro (italics the authors, the bolds and underlining mine) ADWD - Chapter 27:

You will notice in the bolds that Tyrion thinks of Aegon as both a prince and Targaryen. In case you think this was a fluke or GRRM just messed up, Tyrion again thinks of Aegon as both a prince and a Targaryen while discussing visions in the night fires with Moqorro in Chapter 33 - ADWD:

It is clear that GRRM wants the readers to understand that whatever Haldon said after that game of Cyvasse, Tyrion found it credible and is convinced Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Elia.

And the underlined parts of the quotes are for you. In the first Tyrion is surprised to find out how much he cares and in the second Tyrion makes the conscious choice to protect Aegon with his silence. These emotions and actions indicate someone who has some emotional investment in Aegon's cause, not someone who is poised to sell Aegon out at the drop of a hat. Indeed, I have not seen one quote after Tyrion is taken by Jorah where Tyrion expresses any doubt about Aegon's identity at all. Most of the doubts people express about Tyrion's attitude toward Aegon come from their own feelings about Aegon, not the books.

And to answer the question posed in the OP, Jon Connington has no doubts about Aegon. Whatever story he was told to get him to join on to this endeavor must have been convincing. Once we find out what was told to Jon and Tyrion, will we readers also be convinced of Aegon's legitimacy?

Tyrion is thinking about how others will react to Young Griff being presented as Aegon Targaryen. That does not mean that he himself actually believes Young Griff is Rhaegar's son Aegon Targaryen. He may, he may not, or anything in between. Those quotes certainly do not demonstrate the claim that Tyrion believes he is Rhaegar's son.

[Pikachu101]

On 7/10/2018 at 9:16 PM, Canon Claude said:

how could he not know if it’s true?

I think more than anything else it's about wanting to believe it's true, Varys sends him a silver haired boy close to Aegon's age and Jon accepted it without hesitation because this boy is all he has left of Rhaegar.

On 7/10/2018 at 9:16 PM, Canon Claude said:

That and the fact that Varys wastes time trying to persuade a dying man that Aegon is the real deal

That's true, I believed he was a fake without question before someone made this point in a previous thread. I honestly have no idea if he is or not, I'm still leaning towards him being a fake but I have my doubts as well 

On 7/11/2018 at 12:19 AM, EloImFizzy said:

he might just be going along with it because he's so desperate for a part of Rhaegar to still be out there. Even if he was straight up told by someone that Aegon was a fake, I don't think he would believe them. 

Jeremy Kyle could do a DNA test and he'd still be in denial 

On 7/11/2018 at 2:11 AM, Makk said:

But Tyrion is clever enough and so is Arianne

The problem there is neither of them knew Rhaegar or see a reason for Varys to lie, also I think Arianne would want to believe it even if she has doubts because he's Dorne's chance to get justice for Elia and Rhaenys. Plus having a king for a cousin has its advantages.

 

[BlackLightning]

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 9:11 PM, Makk said:

Jon Connington doesn't know he is a fake. As others have said he wants to believe and he isn't clever enough to figure out what possible motivation Varys could have to lie. 

But Tyrion is clever enough and so is Arianne. It will be interesting whether Connington supports him if he finally  realises he has been tricked. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

The problem there is neither of them knew Rhaegar or see a reason for Varys to lie, also I think Arianne would want to believe it even if she has doubts because he's Dorne's chance to get justice for Elia and Rhaenys. Plus having a king for a cousin has its advantages. 

This.

Arianne will be the first one who will find out whether or not Aegon is a Targaryen, a Blackfyre or just some random.

When she does figure Aegon out, she's probably going to either continue to keep it a secret - voluntarily or not - or be in denial. In any case, she has a pretty big reason for not wanting Daenerys in Westeros, much less on the Iron Throne.

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Jon was exiled after the Battle of the Bells, which was 17 years ago: "Seventeen years had come and gone since the Battle of the Bells, yet the sound of bells ringing still tied a knot in his guts." (ADWD - The Lost Lord)

Jon was in the Golden Company for 5 years: "Jon Connington might have been one of those successors if his exile had gone otherwise. He had spent five years with the company, rising from the ranks to a place of honor at Toyne's right hand." (ADWD - The Lost Lord)

I'm sure, that fAegon isn't Rhaegar's son. One of the reasons, is Dany's vision, about mummers dragon amidst cheering crowd, which is obviously fAegon in 7K, presented to people, as son of Rhaegar Targaryen. But the main reason, is those 5 years, during which JonCon was under influence of Myles Toyne.

I think, that, when JonCon arrived to Essos, it wasn't a coincidense, that he met Myles, and thru his help, became member of Golden Company. In my opinion, it was Varys, who has sent Myles to JonCon. Varys planned to use JonCon, from the very beginning. And Myles' job was to become close to JonCon, and make him join GC. So when Varys and Illyrio approached them, with their story about Rhaegar's son, and JonCon had reasonable doubts, about that boy's identity, Myles convinced Jon, that his doubts are unreasonable, and that he should believe to Varys, and take the boy under his protection, and raise him. Myles pretended, that he doesn't know neither Varys, nor Illyrio, and thus he supposedly doesn't have any interest in supporting them, nor their story. JonCon thought, that Myles was his friend, he trusted him, and thus, Myles' opinion and advices mattered to him.

If fAegon really was Rhaegar's son, then there was no need for waiting. The only reason, that I can think of, why Varys waited for those 5 years, before he presented fAegon to JonCon, is that Varys and his team (including Myles) were subtly influencing JonCon from the shadows, and molding him into what they wanted him to become - their oblivious pawn.

[zandru]

56 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Arianne will be the first one who will find out whether or not Aegon is a Targaryen, a Blackfyre or just some random.

How will Arianne find out? Who's going to tell her? "Young Griff" wouldn't know who his true parents are, just what he's been told. Jon Conn, per his own thoughts, believes him to be Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and Elia. If Arianne runs into Varys, why would he spring the information on her and destroy his own many-years-in-the-making plans? What have I missed?