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Son of Man

The danger of Gerold Dayne

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So why is this guy dangerous?  Because of who he is.  One man skilled at swords is not too dangerous.  What about this man make him the most dangerous man in Dorne?  The only way he can be this dangerous is having a claim, if he is the secret son of Aerys.  He was given the Dayne name to hide his real identity.  The color of his hair pattern is unusual and one he shares with Baelor.   

Doran wants a half Martell on the throne.  He doesn't want this half-Dayne to steal the throne from his family.  Gerold's identity might be revealed and people will flock to prop him up.  Gerold can marry the daughter of a great house and put himself in position to take the kingdom.  Why not Gerold + Arriane, now that Viserys is dead?  I believe it has something to do with the dragons.  Doran wants to bond his family to Daenerys Targaryen because she has the dragons.  Gerold could reach out to Daenerys and propose to her.  And if she should accept?  That takes the Martells out of the picture.  

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Lots of speculations ahead.

I think, that Gerold Dayne is working for Varys, and Varys is a descendant of Saera Targaryen, Aerion Brightflame Targaryen, Calla Blackfyre and Aegor Bittersteel Rivers (founder of Golden Company).

Varys promised to Gerold, that he will be given possition of general-commander of fAegon's and Varys' united armies, 250.000 soldiers. Varys probably knows, that Dawn of Daynes' is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer. And only Daynes can wield that sword (Jon Snow is 1/8 Dayne, thru his great great grandmother Queen Dyanna Dayne). So Varys is going to present Gerold, as new Azor Ahai. And Gerold's role is to steal Dawn from Starfall (though the sword, most likely, isn't there, since 283, it's in crypts under Winterfell), and lead Blackfyre army against whoever in Westeros won't support fAegon as new King of 7K. Probably Varys is also planning to marry Gerold to Arianne, and then to get rid of Doran, and to seize control over Dorne. Arianne has already rebelled against her father, so when she will be again given an opportunity to become ruler of Dorne, instead of obeying to Doran and doing nothing, then she will take that opportunity, even if it will mean, that she will have to marry with Gerold Dayne.

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 I am pretty sure he is a legitimate Dayne, and the reason he is dangerous is because he is a loose cannon, and knows the truth that Arys was killed by Hotah and the Martells are lying.

However, for speculation,  I think his widow’s peak, the comment of being weaned on venom, his dislike of Arthur Dayne, and need for vengeance for Elia seems to point to a Martell half breed rather than a targ. Specifically between Doran and his siblings. He might be Oberyn’s and he bedded a married Dayne woman.

Gerold should have been around 8 or 9 when Robert’s Rebellion happened and Elia was around 15 or 16 when she visited Starfall and she was about 22 when she married Rhaegar. And Aerys had waited until Steffon couldn’t find a wife for Rhaegar through Essos and then had Rhaegar marry Elia. It was almost like the last choice for a valariyan wife for Rhaegar, could it be that the reason why Aerys waited this long is because Elia was not a virgin? And if Gerold is Elia’s, then that would be dangerous , as it would put into the question of legitimacy for Aegon. However there are a lot of holes in this one anyway, I feel like my first one is probably more true.

Edited by Crona

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It is a pretty a  straightforward quote

He shook his head. "Would that we had. You were a fool to make him part of this. Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne. You and he have done us all great harm."
Arianne was almost afraid to ask. "Myrcella. Is she . . . ?"
 
He may have doomed Dorne to a wart they could not win (not at that moment in time). 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He may have doomed Dorne to a wart they could not win

I feel bad pouncing on an honest typo, but don't you think Doran has enough to deal with through his gout, without giving him warts as well? :thumbsup:

5 hours ago, Crona said:

However, for speculation,  I think his widow’s peak, the comment of being weaned on venom, his dislike of Arthur Dayne, and need for vengeance for Elia seems to point to a Martell half breed rather than a targ. Specifically between Doran and his siblings. He might be Oberyn’s and he bedded a married Dayne woman.

Possible... I thought the whole 'widow's peak' thing was kind of suggestive.

I'm less convinced about the Elia angle, though. I really can't see Aerys accepting used goods for Rhaegar, bad enough that she was Dornish.... but second-hand Dornish would be impossible for him to swallow, I think.

 

As for Dawn, Darkstar may be a Dayne, but he is a Dayne of High Hermitage, rather than a Dayne of Starfall - does that make him eligible to be a Sword of the Morning, or not? For some rerason I'd always assumed it had to be a Starfall Dayne, but that could be wrong.

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49 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

As for Dawn, Darkstar may be a Dayne, but he is a Dayne of High Hermitage, rather than a Dayne of Starfall - does that make him eligible to be a Sword of the Morning, or not? For some rerason I'd always assumed it had to be a Starfall Dayne, but that could be wrong.

I think, that the sword doesn't care whether his master is from Starfall, High Hermitage, or some other castle. What matteres is blood. If the sword was forged with usage of blood magic, then whoever is a carrier of Dayne genes, can wield it, even if his family name is not a Dayne.

Genetically Jon Snow is a Stark (both of his maternal grandparents were Starks - Rickard and Lyarra), Targaryen, Dayne (thru Egg's mother, Dyanna Dayne), Locke (thru his maternal great grandmother, Marna Locke), Flint (thru his other maternal great grandmother, Arya Flint), and Blackwood (both thru Lyanna's side - Melantha Blackwood, Lyanna's paternal great grandmother, and thru Rhaegar's side - Egg's wife, Betha Blackwood. Probably Betha was Melantha's sister, or cousin, or niece. And maybe Egg will meet his future wife, when he will be visiting The North in the next novel, The she-wolves of Winterfell). So Jon is 2/8 Stark, 2/8 Blackwood, 1/8 Flint, 1/8 Locke, 1/8 Targaryen, and 1/8 Dayne. If Jon's 1/8 of Targaryen blood is enough for him, to be considered as a dragonseed, then his 1/8 of Dayne blood is enough for him, to be able to wield sword of Daynes (that's if the sword is magic-protected against people, that doesn't have Dayne blood). 

Though if that sword is not magic-protected, and it could be used by people without Dayne blood, then whoever will steal it, will become next Sword of the Morning. So maybe Gerold's mission is to get that sword, maybe even for fAegon. That's if Varys doesn't have Blackfyre sword hiden somewhere. 

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OK, I found the text that made me think that Starfall was pertinent:

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord. Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.

For this reason, the Swords of the Morning are all famous throughout the Seven Kingdoms. There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and its title. Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect.

... that 'deemed worthy' suggests that it is a human choice over who gets the sword, rather than anything inherent to the sword. Dawn is owned and controlled by House Dayne of Starfall, nothing in the text to suggest a magical genetic/biometric lock on it - yet...

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11 hours ago, Son of Man said:

So why is this guy dangerous?  Because of who he is.  One man skilled at swords is not too dangerous.  What about this man make him the most dangerous man in Dorne?  The only way he can be this dangerous is having a claim, if he is the secret son of Aerys.  He was given the Dayne name to hide his real identity.  The color of his hair pattern is unusual and one he shares with Baelor.   

Doran wants a half Martell on the throne.  He doesn't want this half-Dayne to steal the throne from his family.  Gerold's identity might be revealed and people will flock to prop him up.  Gerold can marry the daughter of a great house and put himself in position to take the kingdom.  Why not Gerold + Arriane, now that Viserys is dead?  I believe it has something to do with the dragons.  Doran wants to bond his family to Daenerys Targaryen because she has the dragons.  Gerold could reach out to Daenerys and propose to her.  And if she should accept?  That takes the Martells out of the picture.  

Ser Gerold Dayne's identity is not a mystery to be revealed. He wasn't "given the Dayne name to hide his real identity." He is a Dayne, a cousin of Ser Arthur Dayne, a knight of Starfall whose castle is High Hermitage.

With Ser Arthur and his lord brother dead, Ser Gerold is the only known living Dayne other than the preteen Lord Edric, who has disappeared into the Riverlands after having spent the years before that in the Stormlands with Lord Beric Dondarrion.

With Lord Edric missing with Lord Beric, Ser Gerold could very well attempt to claim Starfall for himself, and could perhaps even claim the last surviving sibling of Ser Arthur, Lady Allyria.

Aside from his possible claim to Starfall, he exists in the context of a Dorne that has been in a volatile state for over fifteen years since the Lannisters murdered Princess Elia and his children Aegon and Rhaenys.

Prince Doran is barely holding Dorne together against pressure from many to go to war against the Iron Throne, and Ser Gerold has just attempted to murder Princess Myrcella, and force Dorne into a war against the Iron Throne.

There is no need for some convoluted and baseless theory about Ser Gerold's identity to explain why Doran thinks or states that he is the most dangerous man in Dorne.

That is not to say that there is no Targaryen ancestry somewhere in the ancestry of Ser Gerold or/and Lord Edric, but there is no basis for the theory that they are some secret or hidden son of Aerys or some other Targaryen.

The second Daenerys Targaryen wed Prince Maron Martell a little over a century before the present time, and her children and descendants no doubt found their way into other Dornish houses.

And it's not inconceivable that Maekar (I)'s wife Dyanna Dayne already had Targaryen ancestry from some other source from before Maron wed Daenerys, such as a descendant of the daughters of Garmund Hightower and Princess Rhaena.

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

As for Dawn, Darkstar may be a Dayne, but he is a Dayne of High Hermitage, rather than a Dayne of Starfall - does that make him eligible to be a Sword of the Morning, or not? For some rerason I'd always assumed it had to be a Starfall Dayne, but that could be wrong.

Ser Gerold Dayne rules the castle High Hermitage, but Arianne calls him "a knight of Starfall," he complains that his "cousin (Ser Arthur) is the only Dayne that anyone remembers," and he clearly identifies his house as the same House Dayne that "goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of day."

While it is possible that Gerold is using "cousin" loosely, it is also possible that he is literally the uncle of the currently missing Lord Edric Dayne. Even if he wasn't being literal, and his relation to the deceased Ser Arthur, Ashara, and their lord brother is more distant than first cousins, he is still from House Dayne.

And whatever the case, Gerold is the only known living Dayne male in the story other than the preteen Lord Edric, who spent years in the Stormlands before going missing in the Riverlands with Lord Beric Dondarrion a couple years before the present time. And he need not be Lord of Starfall to become Sword of the Morning (Ser Arthur wasn't).

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When Gerold got away, he got away with a lot of information. Arianne tried to crown Myrcella to start a war, Arys Oakheart was killed by Hotah. And it's possible he knows more than that.

When Hotah came out of the pole boat with his men, he told Arianne that if she did not yield, everyone in her party save for herself and Myrcella would be killed. Drey takes off his sword belt, Garin makes a gesture of surrender and Gerold tells Arys Oakheart that he too needs to yield because there are too many men to fight. So it seems Gerold's intention is to yield as well.

Here are the things I found interesting in the Queenmaker chapter. 

Gerold arrives to Shandystone a whole day ahead of Arianne and her party. The second person to arrive was Garin, a few hours ahead.

He leaves everyone to go take a piss. And he is the only one who leaves the small group at one point.

And he doesn't drink with the others. There's a skin of wine that's being passed around and he is the only one who doesn't drink from it.

I think these may be important things.

ETA : Gerold Dayne doesn't have a widow's peak. Widow's peak is mentioned once and it's Arianne's weird ass fantasy about Oberyn.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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40 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

.

ETA : Gerold Dayne doesn't have a widow's peak. Widow's peak is mentioned once and it's Arianne's weird ass fantasy about Oberyn.

Thanks for that clarification I got those mixed up 

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21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Ser Gerold Dayne rules the castle High Hermitage, but Arianne calls him "a knight of Starfall," he complains that his "cousin (Ser Arthur) is the only Dayne that anyone remembers," and he clearly identifies his house as the same House Dayne that "goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of day."

While it is possible that Gerold is using "cousin" loosely, it is also possible that he is literally the uncle of the currently missing Lord Edric Dayne. Even if he wasn't being literal, and his relation to the deceased Ser Arthur, Ashara, and their lord brother is more distant than first cousins, he is still from House Dayne.

And whatever the case, Gerold is the only known living Dayne male in the story other than the preteen Lord Edric, who spent years in the Stormlands before going missing in the Riverlands with Lord Beric Dondarrion a couple years before the present time. And he need not be Lord of Starfall to become Sword of the Morning (Ser Arthur wasn't).

Quote

Ser Gerold Dayne, known as Darkstar, is the Knight of High Hermitage. His house is a cadet branch of the Daynes of Starfall.

IT IS KNOWN that he is of High Hermitage Daynes, not the Starfall Daynes. Yes, he is related, but his family is a cadet branch. Arianne can be forgiven her starry-eyed faux pas, as she admits how badly she has misjudged him (eventually, in Winds...)

The text we have suggests that the Sword of the Morning needs to be a Knight of Starfall (not necessarily the Lord), and we have yet to see any evidence for how loosely that can be interpreted. And the requirement to be 'deemed worthy' strongly suggests that it is within the gift of the Lord of Starfall to grant Dawn to someone. I don't think simply taking the sword actually makes you the Sword of the Morning.

When it comes to 'claiming' Starfall, it doesn't matter that Darkstar is male - this is Dorne - even IF a cadet branch can inherit from the main line, Allyria comes first in line, if ever they hear of Edric's demise. And for now, to the best of everyone's knowledge, Edric still lives.

The Dayne family tree is very sketchy in the text, and I don't think this is a mere omission on GRRM's part. I think more could easily crawl out of the woodwork.

 

 

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16 hours ago, dmfn said:

They can't all be secret Targs

Agree. I feel like if Jon is a Targ (probably yes) that should suffice.

But with Aerys II "taking liberties" left and right it can be very possible that there are few more Targs we are not aware of.

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

IT IS KNOWN that he is of High Hermitage Daynes, not the Starfall Daynes. Yes, he is related, but his family is a cadet branch. Arianne can be forgiven her starry-eyed faux pas, as she admits how badly she has misjudged him (eventually, in Winds...)

The text we have suggests that the Sword of the Morning needs to be a Knight of Starfall (not necessarily the Lord), and we have yet to see any evidence for how loosely that can be interpreted. And the requirement to be 'deemed worthy' strongly suggests that it is within the gift of the Lord of Starfall to grant Dawn to someone. I don't think simply taking the sword actually makes you the Sword of the Morning.

When it comes to 'claiming' Starfall, it doesn't matter that Darkstar is male - this is Dorne - even IF a cadet branch can inherit from the main line, Allyria comes first in line, if ever they hear of Edric's demise. And for now, to the best of everyone's knowledge, Edric still lives.

The Dayne family tree is very sketchy in the text, and I don't think this is a mere omission on GRRM's part. I think more could easily crawl out of the woodwork.

Ser Gerold Dayne is explicitly called "a knight of Starfall" by the Princess of Dorne, and we have no reason to suspect that there is anything inaccurate about this statement just because he apparently holds a castle called High Hermitage.

There is not a single statement in the books about such a thing as "High Hermitage Daynes" distinct from "Starfall Daynes," or to "High Hermitage Daynes" not being in the line of succession of Starfall, or not being eligible to be Sword of the Morning or to wield Dawn. Ser Gerold certainly speaks of himself as belonging to the same ancient House Dayne as Ser Arthur and his siblings.

We have no reason to assume that Ser Gerold would be ineligible to become Sword of the Morning or wield Dawn on account of holding the castle High Hermitage, regardless of who is responsible for choosing that office, or whether he would be likely to be chosen for that office.

Lord Edric is obviously the head of House Dayne, and his aunt Allyria would certainly generally come before a more distant relative, but Edric is MIA in the Riverlands, and we know nothing about Allyria and what support she does or doesn't have. Starfall and/or Dawn could be ripe for the taking for a skilled adult Dayne swordsman.

But I am not assuming that Ser Gerold will attempt to claim Starfall, or that he will even attempt to claim Dawn and the office of Sword of the Morning. Just stating that Ser Gerold could be much more closely related to Lord Edric than many assume, and that we have no reason to assume that he is in any way disqualified from the Dayne line of succession, or from wielding Dawn and holding the office of Sword of the Morning on account of holding the castle High Hermitage.

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