Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Corvinus85]

I read an article a while back talking about another excerpt from Hibberd's book in which apparently GRRM's least favorite scene in the WHOLE SHOW is Robert's hunting scene in season 1. I think everyone can agree that is not the worst scene in the whole show, but I would like to discuss it.

GRRM's reasons are that this is nowhere near how Robert's boar hunting would have been in the books, and really in any universe, real or imaginary. Budget limitations meant that we were never going to get hundreds of mounted retainers, hunters with dogs, horns blowing, and certainly not the moment when Robert meets the monstrous boar. 

I remember that I felt pretty much the same way about the scene at the time. It is one of the scenes, (the Hand's Tourney is another), that really made this universe feel smaller than it was. The hunting scene wasn't necessary, and it could have easily been covered with some dialogue between Cersei, Ned, and maybe a member of the small council. But instead we got four guys, awkwardly hiking through the woods, and talking about getting laid in all regions of Westeros. It should have raised alarm bells.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I read an article a while back talking about another excerpt from Hibberd's book in which apparently GRRM's least favorite scene in the WHOLE SHOW is Robert's hunting scene in season 1. I think everyone can agree that is not the worst scene in the whole show, but I would like to discuss it.

GRRM's reasons are that this is nowhere near how Robert's boar hunting would have been in the books, and really in any universe, real or imaginary. Budget limitations meant that we were never going to get hundreds of mounted retainers, hunters with dogs, horns blowing, and certainly not the moment when Robert meets the monstrous boar. 

I remember that I felt pretty much the same way about the scene at the time. It is one of the scenes, (the Hand's Tourney is another), that really made this universe feel smaller than it was. The hunting scene wasn't necessary, and it could have easily been covered with some dialogue between Cersei, Ned, and maybe a member of the small council. But instead we got four guys, awkwardly hiking through the woods, and talking about getting laid in all regions of Westeros. It should have raised alarm bells.

I'd strongly expect the interview from which that quote is drawn to have taken place after the entire show was just season 1.

One could expect George to have picked a different scene even if there had been only seasons 1 & 2, much less the later seasons.

But I do agree that this was a weird scene.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[zionius]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd strongly expect the interview from which that quote is drawn to have taken place after the entire show was just season 1.

One could expect George to have picked a different scene even if there had been only seasons 1 & 2, much less the later seasons.

But I do agree that this was a weird scene.

It's interviewed after S8. GRRM said "all eight seasons". Hibberd released the audio of this at 3'30 https://ew.com/podcasts/ew-game-of-thrones-podcast-blackwater-early-years/

[Le Cygne]

Gathered some quotes about the ending here:

GRRM said he hadn't read the scripts for season 8. He also called the show ending "an ending" on his blog (that's also what he titled the blog post):

Let me say this much — last night was an ending, but it was also a beginning...

How will it all end? I hear people asking.   The same ending as the show?  Different? Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

And he referred to the show as an "alternate reality":

Martin added that watching the recent GoT final season was a bit of a strange experience given the different version he’s still writing. “The whole last three years have been strange since the show got ahead of the books,” he says. “Yes, I told [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] a number of things years ago. And some of them they did do. But at the same time, it’s different. I have very fixed ideas in my head as I’m writing The Winds of Winter and beyond that in terms of where things are going. It’s like two alternate realities existing side by side. I have to double down and do my version of it which is what I’ve been doing.”

https://ew.com/tv/2019/07/15/george-rr-martin-game-thrones-fan-reactions/

And he said this:

And in a recent interview with magazine Fast Company, the franchise creator George RR Martin has given his thoughts on the differences between his books and the show, and how season eight wasn't "completely faithful".

Speaking about what can be lost in a book-to-screen adaptation, the author admitted: "It can be… traumatic. Because sometimes their creative vision and your creative vision don't match, and you get the famous creative differences thing – that leads to a lot of conflict."...

And speaking more specifically about Game of Thrones, he said: "The [final] series has been... not completely faithful. Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons."

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a29331023/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-season-8-not-completely-faithful/

Earlier he said this:

The case of GAME OF THRONES and A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is perhaps unique. I can't think of any other instance where the movie or TV show came out as the source material was still being written. So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

He said this before about a main character:

In a convention panel this year, George said on the record that he had no idea what they were doing with Sansa or where they’re taking her storyline, which now makes sense perhaps. He was not pleased when he was talking about it, so who knows what’s going to happen with her! Knowing GRRM, that could mean they’re going off the canon reservation, and/or that they’re going to be making a lot of shit up

https://starkalypse.com/post/87703459951/might-be-useful-to-keep-in-mind

And again now in this book:

GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: My Littlefinger would have never turned Sansa over to Ramsay. Never. He’s obsessed with her. Half the time he thinks she’s the daughter he never had—that he wishes he had, if he’d married Catelyn. And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself. He’s not going to give her to somebody who would do bad things to her. That’s going to be very different in the books.

When a story is so altered, how does it end the same? Even the best of writers would have trouble matching endings, and they are hardly that.

And Benioff and Weiss have often said their ending would differ from the books.

They said it would end "in the spirit of the books" and we know what they think of that:

"We know the end point, and we're hoping that, you know, that end point will be very much in keeping with the spirit of the books."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CuwSiwUOzk

When season 8 was in production, they said it's not the same ending:

To what degree do you feel it needs to be perfectly congruent with the vision of the endgame of the novels that Martin presented to you?

BENIOFF: It’s already too late for that. We’re already well past the point of it jibing 100 percent. We’ve passed George and that’s something that George always worried about — the show catching up and ultimately passing him — but the good thing about us diverging at this point is that George’s books will still be a surprise for readers who have seen the show. Certain things that we learned from George way back in that meeting in Santa Fe are going to happen on the show, but certain things won’t. And there’s certain things where George didn’t know what was going to happen, so we’re going to find them out for the first time too, along with millions of readers when we read those books.

https://time.com/4791793/game-of-thrones-season-7-david-benioff-d-b-weiss/

They said they kept coming up with "what ifs" when writing the final season:

WEISS: It’s kind of nice for him because — obviously through necessity we’ve pulled out ahead — the show has become so different that people will have no way knowing from watching what will or won’t appear in the books. And honestly, neither do we.

BENIOFF: We don’t. And George discovers a lot of stuff while he’s writing. I don’t think that final book is written in stone yet — it’s not written on paper yet. As George says, he’s a gardener and he’s waiting to see how those seeds blossom...

WEISS: It wasn’t like something where five years ago one of us said, “I think this has to happen and I know this is right.” [The final season storyline was] something that gradually unfolded with neither of us wanting to plant a flag in the ground right out of the gate. Because what if you’re wrong? What if there’s a better idea out there and you planted a flag on the second- or third-best idea? So it was always more a “What if…” conversation than an “I think that…” So by the time we got to the place where we were outlining we already knew most of the big things.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/09/game-of-thrones-season-8-showrunners-interview/

[Le Cygne]

Regarding Bran as king, GRRM didn't at any point (in any interview I could find) say he told them BRAN would be on the iron throne.

Here's someone asking Hibberd, and his answer:

Question: Coming back to this, is there a reason why you put quotation marks around who ends up on the Iron Throne? The show established it was Bran and I noticed that in your book, GRRM doesn't even say it's Bran either, just 'who ends up on the throne.' It makes me wonder if GRRM did in fact tell them who ends up on the throne, but they decided to choose Bran instead since, as they said in your book, they wanted the whole 3ER thing to 'lead to something consequential'.

Hibberd: I'm pretty sure he was simply referring to Bran...but I put it in quotes just in case he was being tricky

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/j6vtz7/spoilers_extended_im_james_hibberd_the_author_of/g80zbb0/

Yeah, it could be but it's interesting that he never actually says the word Bran, and Hibberd wasn't sure enough that he put it in quotes.

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, zionius said:

It's interviewed after S8. GRRM said "all eight seasons". Hibberd released the audio of this at 3'30 https://ew.com/podcasts/ew-game-of-thrones-podcast-blackwater-early-years/

Well, then let's hope that's not a sign of dementia on George's part and rather him choosing the scenes he doesn't like very carefully, folllowing weird criteria.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Le Cygne]

He did, indeed, distance himself from the show over time, and this was indicated in multiple interviews.

[Cas Stark]

Martin told EW via email he can’t recall saying he doesn’t watch the acclaimed HBO drama series and notes that perhaps something was mangled during translation. During his trip abroad he didn’t watch any television — and he’s behind on Thrones‘ current seventh season. So perhaps that was a source of confusion. But Martin does watch the series.

https://ew.com/tv/2017/08/23/george-r-r-martin-watches-game-of-thrones/

 

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Can anyone find "mainstream" / professional reviews of Hibberd's book?

I rather doubt there's much interest in promoting a dead show most viewers would rather forget.

[Ghostlydragon]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I rather doubt there's much interest in promoting a dead show most viewers would rather forget.

I guess that's why it came out now rather than a year ago.

[Dalinar]

8 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Can anyone find "mainstream" / professional reviews of Hibberd's book?

Review of a non-fiction book about inside information regarding a TV show? What are critics gonna "review" there? The literature? The writing style? The storytellig? Makes no sense.

[SeanF]

There is so much fan fiction for late seasons which is so much better written than the stuff the two D's gave us, that it should have been easy for them to hire good writers to finish it well.

They seemed to make a point of coming up with the most far-fetched plots they could conceive.  None of the nobility or small folk objected to Cersei's blowing up the Great Sept, despite this being such common knowledge that even Hot Pie could tell Arya about it;  Tyrion came up with moronic military strategies,  in order to avoid the obvious option of hitting the Red Keep;  they kinda forgot that the Tyrells had the biggest army in the Seven Kingdoms;  the wight hunt was their plot device for getting the Dead through the Wall;  Rhaegar managed to a get a "secret annulment" that nobody knew about, and for which the only evidence was a diary entry;  Jon bent the knee to Dany for no reason, only to imply that he was forced into it in the next season;  Jon became a jellyfish who made no attempt to bridge the gap between Dany and his own people, and who shunned her without telling her why;  they devised even more moronic military strategies for fighting the Night King; and so on.

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

I guess that's why it came out now rather than a year ago.

You can see right through all the PR moves, to some smoke filled good ole boys room in HBO. Time for a correction of the "confusion"! Let's get Hibberd on that.

[Le Cygne]

They had such short attention spans, and loved distractions.

Your point about Jon is a good one, he was such an asshole. Let's put aside the huge bit about him murdering Dany - while in the script, thinking I love her! I wish I had more time with her! which has to be the funniest bit of writing yet.

The writers had a grudge not only against women but against families, because they sure portrayed family horribly. When the Starks weren't trying to kill each other, they were betraying each other, and saying the most horrible things to each other.

Don't be like our father, honor is stupid! I'll skin your face off! (Later: You're smart even though you were going to kill me until someone had to tell you Littlefinger is bad! But Littlefinger loved me!) You're just like Joffrey! I saw you with Ramsay! We don't want her here, she's not one of us! Please keep my secret... Nope! She's one of us but to hell with her. I love you (stab stab stab). He can't be king, he can't have children! (Where's my tiara?)

(And much more... it's almost like they were intentionally funny.)

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The writers had a grudge not only against women but against families, because they sure portrayed family horribly. When the Starks weren't trying to kill each other, they were betraying each other, and saying the most horrible things to each other.

So true. The show also seemed to have an issue w/ good looking man. I mean, look at what utter idiots they turned Jon and Jaime into!

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

They had such short attention spans, and loved distractions.

Your point about Jon is a good one, he was such an asshole. Let's put aside the huge bit about him murdering Dany - while in the script, thinking I love her! I wish I had more time with her! which has to be the funniest bit of writing yet.

The writers had a grudge not only against women but against families, because they sure portrayed family horribly. When the Starks weren't trying to kill each other, they were betraying each other, and saying the most horrible things to each other.

Don't be like our father, honor is stupid! I'll skin your face off! (Later: You're smart even though you were going to kill me until someone had to tell you Littlefinger is bad! But Littlefinger loved me!) You're just like Joffrey! I saw you with Ramsay! We don't want her here, she's not one of us! Please keep my secret... Nope! She's one of us but to hell with her. I love you (stab stab stab). He can't be king, he can't have children! (Where's my tiara?)

(And much more... it's almost like they were intentionally funny.)

I don't know if you've ever read The Great Divorce by C. S. Lewis.

In the afterlife, a murderer (who repented prior to his execution) tells his victim "Murdering you was not the worst thing I did to you."  It was the culmination of endless acts of abuse.

Jon had betrayed Daenerys repeatedly, before he eventually drove a knife through her heart.  He lied to his vassals about bending the knee, and never set the record straight;  he refused to bridge the gap between her and his family and his people;  he shunned her, without ever telling her why;  he refused to comfort her over the loss of friends;  then he insisted on blabbing his parentage to his siblings - his feelings counted for more than the safety of his commanding officer.

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

So true. The show also seemed to have an issue w/ good looking man. I mean, look at what utter idiots they turned Jon and Jaime into!

Oh yes, they were so spiteful that women in the audience liked these characters.

Benioff is beside himself with jealousy here. HE made him kill his cousin. In the books, he protected his cousin.

"The real Jaime Lannister isn't the good looking, charming rogue. The real Jaime is a monster, he's a beast, and [killing] is what he loves to do."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxJSAmS8Wvg

And once again, HE made him do this to Cersei. It was the opposite in the books, and GRRM said so.

"You are right to be disturbed by it. I think it was a brutal scene... It felt to us when we were writing it like this is something the character was going to do at that moment. And it was a horrible thing to do."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc

They always use that excuse. It feels to us like this would happen. As if they didn't put the characters in these positions they'd never be in the first place.

Yes, if you step off a cliff, you will fall. But they are the ones making them step off the cliff. It's such an asinine excuse, I guess the dog ate their 8th grade homework, too.