What smart things has Sansa done?

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

If Sansa was truly smart, she'd ask Jon in private - but then we couldn't have Fake-Winterfell-Drama 2.0. 

The thing is, and I am inclined to agree with you, no one ever criticized Queen of Thorns when she did the same. She was snarky with everyone, in public and privately. 

At the end of the day, Sansa does what Dany and Jon want her to do. And this faux drama will end next week so we can move on to hating Cersei

[Error-504]

13 hours ago, Pandean said:

I have no clue how to make the quote thing like you did so apologies if this is jumbled a bit:

 

There were calculated moved in King's Landing that kept her alive. When Tyrion offered to break her betrothal for instance. She was able to keep face and carry that mask and not break. Yeah, she didn't manipulate Joffrey like Margaery but I'd argue that wouldn't have worked anyway. Joffrey wanted Sansa to suffer since that day she saw him in his weakness at the Trident. Plus, she was a traitor's daughter to everyone, especially him. She has considerably less cards in her favor than Margaery. But she still manages to survive in an extremely deadly court where she is little more than a hostage who can be killed at any momENT. Which is saying something.

Maybe Cersei understands the political importance of Sansa being alive but Joffrey doesn't and we already know Joffrey did what he liked.

 

I'm less talking about the more men thing (though it's obvious) and more that she warned JOn about how Ramsay was like and in battle, she even understood there was no way Rickon was going to survive, and Jon ignored her advice, did the exact thing Ramsay was hoping for, and his men got slaughtered because of it. I'd argue w/ the KotV she wasn't holding them back or whatnot more that she didn't know if they'd arrive in time but in all honestly I think the scene doesn't make sense as anything other than a ex machina cool scene that D&D wanted.

I guess you're right that she should have listened to Brienne.

With Ramsay vs Roose, hear me out: While they managed to defeat Ramsay in battle, I don't think they would have defeated Roose. Roose has his shit put together. He's a brilliant commander and a seasoned war veteran. He knows how to actually run a keep and lands and it's people and he's a more legitimate source of power than Ramsay is. 

If Jon, Sansa, and their ragtag army had fought Roose then they definitely would have lost. In fact, I bet that most people would not have joined their cause. Ramsay was known to be crazy and obviously many wouldn't want to follow him. Roose was an awful person but at least he wasn't mad like Ramsay was. There was a higher chance of him garnering more loyalty. 

So while Ramsay being Lord of Winterfell/etc. is a dangerous move and gambit, I figure since Sansa was already trying to escape (since she did it next episode) she was putting into place the seeds of who she thinks she can win Winterfell back from. IDK, I may be reading way too much into that, but I do think that there would've been a huge difference in outcome if they fought Roose instead of Ramsay.

This is wrong. Blatantly wrong. Had Sansa committed the Vales forces earlier, or at least told Jon they were coming, Jon would have waited until their arrival.  The only reason Ramsay did what he did, and killed Rickon, was he was extremely confident that he would win, and was antagonizing Jon. He would have never ventured out of WF's walls when he saw he was outnumbered and facing a superior army. He also might have faced mutiny from within the walls, when the Umbers and Karstarks realized what they were up against. Not to mention, the glovers, Manderlys, and Cerwyns would have most likely also joined the battle on Jon's side, knowing there was more than a good chance they would win. In a position of weakness, Ramsay would have seen value in Rickon as a bargaining chip for his safe retreat, and not have been so quick to kill him. 

Sansa was more concerned with getting Ramsay out of WF into the open, so the Vale could swoop in and she have her revenge. She didn't give a dam about Rickon, her revenge was more important to her. An argument can be made she was purposely trying to get Rickon and Jon killed, so she would become the rightful heir to WF. At the very least, she was a complete idiot in the way she handled the situation. 

[Mighthearmeroar]

One thing that the Northern leaders keeping doing that is not smart is to have passive agressive conflicts in open court. For example: when Lyanna Mormont questions the commanders-in-chief about what Jon is, Jon, Dany and Sansa act all shocked for some reason. It should be obvious to everyone on Planetos that this is something that's really important to the Northern Lords. They want independence from the rest of Westeros, they elect a King in the North and now that King steps down in favour of a Targaryen monarch. Dany looks at the other two like "oh, this was a thing? I kinda forgot all about that lol. Hm, why didn't Jon bend his knee to me immediately on Dragonstone? Didn't he say something about that oh well IDK, that was last season so who remembers anyway. Atleast he got this thing he does with his tongue....*wanders off into sexy day dream*"

 

You'll forgive my facetiousness, I'm sure.

Point is: the leaders of the North seem to know very little about ruling and most of all, to make it look like they got it all covered and that they really are united. This is essential, especially when you bring A) Unwashed barbarian horselords B) washed eunuch warriors and C) dragons to an area populated by stubbron xenophobes. 

[Nictarion]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

The thing is, and I am inclined to agree with you, no one ever criticized Queen of Thorns when she did the same. She was snarky with everyone, in public and privately. 

At the end of the day, Sansa does what Dany and Jon want her to do. And this faux drama will end next week so we can move on to hating Cersei

Yes, but Olenna did it from a much better position of power. The North is basically fucked without Dany. 

Sansa would have done well to don her “courtesy armor.” 

But I agree it will likely be resolved pretty quickly. 

[Mladen]

18 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Yes, but Olenna did it from a much better position of power. The North is basically fucked without Dany. 

Sansa would have done well to don her “courtesy armor.” 

But I agree it will likely be resolved pretty quickly. 

Well, Tyrells got fucked even with Dany. So...

Yeah, I mean, this "mean girl" behavior is so not Sansa... She would be courteous, polite, not this openly snarky. She would have done it much more veiled. 

But episode 2's preview speaks a lot on this subject and I do look forward to see these too in complete harmony.

[ummester]

1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

dont most people wear clothing underneath their armor though? How many just slap it on their naked body? Where do they get all the leather? Much easier and more practical to tell the soldiers to grab an extra sweater to wear underneath, don't you think? 

Good points = you've convinced me, Sansa is dumb as fuck

NB - I was not strongly convinced of my own argument before your rebuttal. 

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

This is wrong. Blatantly wrong. Had Sansa committed the Vales forces earlier, or at least told Jon they were coming, Jon would have waited until their arrival.  The only reason Ramsay did what he did, and killed Rickon, was he was extremely confident that he would win, and was antagonizing Jon. He would have never ventured out of WF's walls when he saw he was outnumbered and facing a superior army. He also might have faced mutiny from within the walls, when the Umbers and Karstarks realized what they were up against. Not to mention, the glovers, Manderlys, and Cerwyns would have most likely also joined the battle on Jon's side, knowing there was more than a good chance they would win. In a position of weakness, Ramsay would have seen value in Rickon as a bargaining chip for his safe retreat, and not have been so quick to kill him. 

Sansa was more concerned with getting Ramsay out of WF into the open, so the Vale could swoop in and she have her revenge. She didn't give a dam about Rickon, her revenge was more important to her. An argument can be made she was purposely trying to get Rickon and Jon killed, so she would become the rightful heir to WF. At the very least, she was a complete idiot in the way she handled the situation. 

Considering your signature or whatever thing is "Sansa must die" and my other interactions with you. I really don't think debating/arguing with you will get me anywhere or enlighten anyone so I'm gonna pass.

Just so you know.  

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, Mighthearmeroar said:

One thing that the Northern leaders keeping doing that is not smart is to have passive agressive conflicts in open court. For example: when Lyanna Mormont questions the commanders-in-chief about what Jon is, Jon, Dany and Sansa act all shocked for some reason. It should be obvious to everyone on Planetos that this is something that's really important to the Northern Lords. They want independence from the rest of Westeros, they elect a King in the North and now that King steps down in favour of a Targaryen monarch. Dany looks at the other two like "oh, this was a thing? I kinda forgot all about that lol. Hm, why didn't Jon bend his knee to me immediately on Dragonstone? Didn't he say something about that oh well IDK, that was last season so who remembers anyway. Atleast he got this thing he does with his tongue....*wanders off into sexy day dream*"

 

You'll forgive my facetiousness, I'm sure.

Point is: the leaders of the North seem to know very little about ruling and most of all, to make it look like they got it all covered and that they really are united. This is essential, especially when you bring A) Unwashed barbarian horselords washed eunuch warriors and C) dragons to an area populated by stubbron xenophobes. 

I always viewed the Northern Lords as having some kind of conclave type discussion. Similar to hiolding court but less one-sided. Which is why they are so outspoken and whatnot.

 

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

The thing is, and I am inclined to agree with you, no one ever criticized Queen of Thorns when she did the same. She was snarky with everyone, in public and privately. 

At the end of the day, Sansa does what Dany and Jon want her to do. And this faux drama will end next week so we can move on to hating Cersei

But Olenna never really had a public presence. Most of her scenes were private or semi-private. At the wedding she didn't sound off. At the confrontation with the Sparrow she didn't sound off. What truly public arena was she at odds with someone when it should have been private? I can't remember any. (genuinely asking because when I began thinking about this question I couldn't come up with any)

But to elaborate a little. I hated Sansa's snark because it's at odds with the 'courtesy as armor' personality from the books. Olenna was always a crusty old fart. I know that Show and Book Sansa are different, but it hurts my soul when I see her like this, can't help it.

And I agree, this is all artificial and will be dropped soon because ... dead things.

[L’Age d’or]

15 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I agree she's always been smart, just naive. I think the Show hasn't done much to show us Sansa's cleverness and relies on people saying it. Honestly, I think they've been fucking up her character since season 5. Season 4 ended with her in her power dress and ready to debut as Darth Sansa, but they didn't really go anywhere with that and just assumed we'd all be on board. They've turned her into a sullen brat who might be saying the right things, but her attitude is just so thick that people don't want to listen to her. Not a great leadership quality and not exactly wise.

 

13 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The show has a bad habit of having characters do objectively stupid things:  like having a huge, fresh army at your beck and call, and failing to tell anyone about it, while you rant about there not being enough men.....and then, when you finally pull the army out at the last minute, after your brother is dead and thousands of your people are dead, you are rewarded by being called smart.  Or, marrying your family's betrayer for revenge with no plan of actual revenge, and again, being rewarded by the show and called tough and independent.  Jon and Sansa both made a series of horrendous decisions, were basically called stupid losers by their own bannermen, yet still, Jon was rewarded with King in the North, Sansa, with Lady of Winterfell.

Jon, Dany and Sansa have something in common, they are terrible decision makers being gifted positions of power and would not last long without their potent plate plot armour. 

[Mladen]

31 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

What truly public arena was she at odds with someone when it should have been private? I can't remember any. (genuinely asking because when I began thinking about this question I couldn't come up with any)

At Dany's council meeting which is almost the same as Northern council (although Northerners are a bit more open about attendance).

32 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

But to elaborate a little. I hated Sansa's snark because it's at odds with the 'courtesy as armor' personality from the books. Olenna was always a crusty old fart. I know that Show and Book Sansa are different, but it hurts my soul when I see her like this, can't help it.

This, I agree. These snarky comments feel "empowering" and I assume Miss Turner enjoyed playing this version of Sansa. I can see book Sansa thinking what the TV Sansa is saying but I imagine her discourteous behavior could have done much better. 

As I said, Sansa is doing everything she is expected. And Episode 2 will bring them closer together when they bond over the mutual enemy.
 

[Nerevanin]

16 hours ago, Pandean said:

I have no clue how to make the quote thing like you did so apologies if this is jumbled a bit:

 

 

 

You can quote one post several times and deleted what you don't want to react to atm, or you can simply highlight a part of a post with your mouse and it give you an option "quote selection"

 

16 hours ago, Pandean said:

With Ramsay vs Roose, hear me out: While they managed to defeat Ramsay in battle, I don't think they would have defeated Roose. Roose has his shit put together. He's a brilliant commander and a seasoned war veteran. He knows how to actually run a keep and lands and it's people and he's a more legitimate source of power than Ramsay is. 

If Jon, Sansa, and their ragtag army had fought Roose then they definitely would have lost. In fact, I bet that most people would not have joined their cause. Ramsay was known to be crazy and obviously many wouldn't want to follow him. Roose was an awful person but at least he wasn't mad like Ramsay was. There was a higher chance of him garnering more loyalty. 

So while Ramsay being Lord of Winterfell/etc. is a dangerous move and gambit, I figure since Sansa was already trying to escape (since she did it next episode) she was putting into place the seeds of who she thinks she can win Winterfell back from. IDK, I may be reading way too much into that, but I do think that there would've been a huge difference in outcome if they fought Roose instead of Ramsay.

I completely agree that Jon would have a very hard time defeating Roose. That's very true. But the way you put it, it seems as if Sansa wanted Ramsay to kill Roose because she already planned a battle to defeat him. In reality, at the moment she said that the baby has a stronger claim to Winterfell than Ramsay, she didn't even know that Jon was the Commander of Night's Watch. Her only strong ally was Littlefinger who was in King's Landing and who wasn't really going to declare a war against Boltons. Sure, in the end her actions contributed to the defeat of the Boltons and thus can be seen as kinda smart maybe but at the very moment when she said it, it was rather stupid: Ramsay could get very very angry at her to the point of for example flaying her and she risked Ramsay killing his father who controlled him at least a bit which means even worse conditions for Sansa at Winterfell. A whole different story would be if Sansa was for example able to communicaet with Jon and when the two of them decided to unleash an attack against Winterfell, Sansa would provoke Ramsay into killing Roose. Just an opinion, ofc.
 

[UnViserion]

I just about spat my wine across the room when Arya said that. Apparently the plot demands that Sansa be considered a smart player. 

[Error-504]

13 hours ago, Pandean said:

Considering your signature or whatever thing is "Sansa must die" and my other interactions with you. I really don't think debating/arguing with you will get me anywhere or enlighten anyone so I'm gonna pass.

Just so you know.  

That's just a little jab,  I really don't think she should die, just buy a clue.  

 

There, better now? 

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

That's just a little jab,  I really don't think she should die, just buy a clue.  

 

There, better now? 

I mean I don't particularly care what you have in your signature

I just think it's pointless to debate/argue/etc. with someone who I know isn't going to budge from their opinion when I also probably won't budge from mine. 

Like, I'd rather than a productive discussion when possible.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Sansa, in the past, has not been the Brightest Candle in the Cathedral but this season she is smart enough to know that trusting Cersie is the dumbest thing anyone can do, so.. Last Season, The Wyght Hunt beyond the wall, thus giving the Night's King a dragon which allowed him to melt the magic wall, all for convincing Cersie to join people that she obviously wants to kill was a folly from start to finish and costly to the highest degree.

Maybe she has been spending more time with Bran off Camera and actually paying attention to the REAL Smartest being in Westeros. Sorry Imp, it is not you.

[Smoke317]

3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Sansa, in the past, has not been the Brightest Candle in the Cathedral but this season she is smart enough to know that trusting Cersie is the dumbest thing anyone can do, so.. Last Season, The Wyght Hunt beyond the wall, thus giving the Night's King a dragon which allowed him to melt the magic wall, all for convincing Cersie to join people that she obviously wants to kill was a folly from start to finish and costly to the highest degree.

Maybe she has been spending more time with Bran off Camera and actually paying attention to the REAL Smartest being in Westeros. Sorry Imp, it is not you.

It was the damn Imp who suggested the Wight Hunt & also got 3/5’s of Dany’s forces wiped out.  It most certainly is not him anymore. 

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

I think the line refers more to the fact she is still alive after all this time, she was basically  a prisoner for all these years towing the line between living and being killed with the lannisters/Boltons/littlefinger and managed to make it without having a single combat skill and being pretty much on her own for the best part of it.

She might not be booksmart but she has definitely gained street smarts as the show has gone on.

[Pandean]

I think for me it boils down to this:

I think Sansa is pretty smart. She's grown a lot since she was a child and has learned a lot of things and is putting them to use. Is she the smartest person in the series? No. Is she the smartest person Arya has met? Maybe. In a way. I don't think she would count Tywin considering the circumstances. 

I more liked that scene because I felt like it was a callback to Season 7 ep 7(8? How many episodes were in that season again?) where Sansa calls Arya the strongest person she knows. And I moreso liked the scene due to the Stark siblings defending each other. When Jon goes back into the 'mock Sansa' stuff he and Arya used to do in childhood (like wtf Jon) Arya shuts it down. And that also shows how Arya has grown as a character, too. 

[MinscS2]

11 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I more liked that scene because I felt like it was a callback to Season 7 ep 7(8? How many episodes were in that season again?) where Sansa calls Arya the strongest person she knows.

Good catch.
As someone who got bothered by the whole "Sansa is the smartest person"-quote, this is something I can actually buy from a story narrative.
It's not meant to be taken literally.