Jump to content
Lady Winter Rose

Rickon is destined to be new Lord of Winterfell

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I like Rickon too, he seems like he can become the typical Stark Lord with Wolfs blood in him. 

I really doubt the North will change its succession laws to the ones adopted by house Martell. The Martells and other dornish houses follow the succession laws of the Rhoynar. And i cant see a kingdom of First men descent, whom still consider martial the most important aspect of a ruler, accepting this succession law. Out of all the kingdoms in Westeros The Iron Islands and the North are the two kingdoms where it is very unlikely that you'll see this sort of law implemented. 

Times are a changing in Westeros. We've had a war of five kings, and now it's the three queens turn. Asha had a huge amount of support at the kingsmoot, and only lost because Euron is insane and Victarion is more interested in fighting a war he could never hope to win against the North. The North could very well support a daughter of Ned Stark. Hell, the only reason any northmen support Bolton is because they think he has Arya. Sansa is very much Ned's daughter, and she's actually become quite adept at managing a household and playing politics under the tutelage of LF. Robb won the support and respect of the Greatjon by showing him he was no child, so Sansa only needs to prove herself a capable leader to win their respect, and the influx of free folk could also help change attitudes about women and leadership in the North. It's possible that tradition will hold sway, of course, but I figure the winds of winter are those of change. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Headless Wolf said:

Times are a changing in Westeros. We've had a war of five kings, and now it's the three queens turn. Asha had a huge amount of support at the kingsmoot, and only lost because Euron is insane and Victarion is more interested in fighting a war he could never hope to win against the North. The North could very well support a daughter of Ned Stark. Hell, the only reason any northmen support Bolton is because they think he has Arya. Sansa is very much Ned's daughter, and she's actually become quite adept at managing a household and playing politics under the tutelage of LF. Robb won the support and respect of the Greatjon by showing him he was no child, so Sansa only needs to prove herself a capable leader to win their respect, and the influx of free folk could also help change attitudes about women and leadership in the North. It's possible that tradition will hold sway, of course, but I figure the winds of winter are those of change. 

Yeah the North will definitely support a daughter of Ned Stark, but only if all of Neds sons are dead. If it came down to choosing either a 5 or 6 year old Rickon and a grown women as Sansa. They would choose Rickon without hesitation, and most probably Sansa as regent unless she decides to marry into a house for political purposes e.g. harry the heir. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, The Young Maester said:

Yeah the North will definitely support a daughter of Ned Stark, but only if all of Neds sons are dead. If it came down to choosing either a 5 or 6 year old Rickon and a grown women as Sansa. They would choose Rickon without hesitation, and most probably Sansa as regent unless she decides to marry into a house for political purposes e.g. harry the heir. 

You make a good point, though I would note that if they would choose a son of Ned Stark to follow, it would likely be Jon, a proven commander and warrior, the spitting image of his "father," and Robb's legitimized heir, which will likely come out, or possibly already has "Bear Island knows no other king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." I love little Rickon, but who would choose a little boy to lead them in wartime, over an older, more experienced son, or an older, smarter daughter, with allies from the Vale to bolster their forces?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Headless Wolf said:

You make a good point, though I would note that if they would choose a son of Ned Stark to follow, it would likely be Jon, a proven commander and warrior, the spitting image of his "father," and Robb's legitimized heir, which will likely come out, or possibly already has "Bear Island knows no other king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." I love little Rickon, but who would choose a little boy to lead them in wartime, over an older, more experienced son, or an older, smarter daughter, with allies from the Vale to bolster their forces?

True they would rather have Jon as their leader rather than baby Rickon. Knowing Jon he is likely to abdicate once either Bran (if he dosent become a tree) or Rickon come of age, and even for Sansa if she asks. Jon knows its not his place to rule from Winterfell when Ned starks trueborn children still live. If Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell i would love to see lady Stonehearts reaction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

True they would rather have Jon as their leader rather than baby Rickon. Knowing Jon he is likely to abdicate once either Bran (if he dosent become a tree) or Rickon come of age, and even for Sansa if she asks. Jon knows its not his place to rule from Winterfell when Ned starks trueborn children still live. If Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell i would love to see lady Stonehearts reaction.

I don't think Cat would actually mind. It may even give her some comfort to see Robb's will being carried out, she knows how much Robb loved Jon and wanted him to be his heir. She's not mindless, she is now and has always been driven by love for her children, and the pain at seeing them taken away from her. As long as she knows her children are alive I don't think she cares if they become lords or ladies, and when she hears that her favorite son (Bran) is still alive I think she may end her life, but I could very well be mistaken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it fits Sansa's story a lot more to be the head of House Stark at the end of the series, myself. Queenship is a recurring theme in her chapters, ("if I am queen, I will make them love me") as well as political expertise, and several allusions to Ned in her character. Admittedly, Bran also has quite a bit about ruling in his ACOK chapters -- really, I think either of them would make more narrative sense than Rickon at this point with what's been built up.

Also, the male line does not matter at all if there is an arrangement to preserve the family name. Agnes Blackwood had Blackwood children, Maege Mormont has Mormont daughters, Tanda Stokeworth has Stokeworth daughters, Anya Waynwood has Waynwood children, Arwyn Oakheart has Oakheart children. And if the Free Folk myths are true, Bael's son with a Stark daughter has already broken a not 100% male line. 

I do think that while Westeros is not going to be a tolerant society, the north specifically is going to see more female rulers and heirs in times of death from after the War of the Five Kings, Stannis's war, the Others coming, etc. For example...

  • Jonelle Cerwyn, Lady of Castle Cerwyn
  • Meera Reed, heir to Greywater Watch (Jojen is a goner, I believe, whether or not Bran ate him...)
  • Wynafryd Manderly, heir-to-the-heir to White Harbor
  • Alys Karstark, heir presumptive to Karhold
  • Barbrey Ryswell Dustin, Lady of Barrowton
  • Maege Mormont, Lady of Bear Island, and her heir, Alysane Mormont

And there are some ladies south of the Neck too, such as Cersei being Lady of the Rock. So who knows, perhaps a teenage female ruler may be preferred over a child... especially if the Vale chooses to press Sansa's own claim after she marries Ser Harry. 

But really, that's my own take. One way or another, the wolves will come again. 

1 hour ago, Headless Wolf said:

I don't think Cat would actually mind. It may even give her some comfort to see Robb's will being carried out, she knows how much Robb loved Jon and wanted him to be his heir. She's not mindless, she is now and has always been driven by love for her children, and the pain at seeing them taken away from her. As long as she knows her children are alive I don't think she cares if they become lords or ladies, and when she hears that her favorite son (Bran) is still alive I think she may end her life, but I could very well be mistaken.

She definitely would mind. I say this as someone who loves Catelyn, but she is an ambitious character, and you don't need to even be an ambitious lady in Westeros to abhor the concept of the bastard step-child coming before one's own children. There's a reason Catelyn protested as much against that will as she respectably could, naming some distant Vale cousins before even thinking about Jon. 

And Lady Stoneheart? Oh, she is just a vehicle of hatred and revenge now, the ultimate hanging judge. She's not going to be pleased one bit at anyone who has caused the downfall of the Starks and the Tullys, and Jon would always be an usurper to LSH. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Shpati said:

  He may be a puppet lord for a while, but eventually he will turn into a wild wolf.

 

22 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I have a feeling Rickon and Shaggydog may have taken a dark turn.

 

20 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

 Growing in Skagos with wildlings is not going to make him a proper lord.  

Is this the time for a proper lord though?    A snarling cannibal lord may be what's required to put the other houses back in check and keep people going right on through the end of "humanity," when the winter does away with lords and gentile behavior as everyone is driven wild with hunger and other survival concerns.   In a world of everyone being out for themself, give me lord Rickon.

18 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

As to what Rickon's purpose could be in a narrative sense, I rather suspect he doesn't have one. The gardener planted a seed, and lo, it did not sprout.

This could manifest in the form of Rickon's assassination via Littlefinger, which looms as a thing.  If Sansa is Pete's play and the reappearance of Rick would undercut that....

12 hours ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

Sansa and Jon will rule the North as King and Queen and bring a new era - just like Henry VII/Elizabeth York (historical figures Sansa and Jon are most like) brought the Tudor Era. 

Interesting.  So the story comes full circle with Stark taking a page from the Lannister & Targaryen playbook, having bother and sister as royals.  If not full blood siblings, then siblings by how they (and everyone else) viewed one another their whole lives growing up.   That ending seems like more of the same rather than striking a blow to "end the cycle of history" as some readers are hoping for.  And yet, it's a solid endpoint that would allow people to exhale and feel the North was in good shape.    So I can appreciate your mention of her rebuilding the real castle and not only sweetrobin's snow toy version.  I don't think of her as being the one for that duty is all.  (More on that below).  (Sidenote: I always hear that as "Moron that below" and giggle.)

11 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Jon will be King, Sansa will be a Lady somewhere in the South, Bran will join the Heart Tree in Winterfell’s godswood, and Rickon will be Lord of Winterfell.

If i knew what druthers were, and if I were given mine, this sounds like what I'd ask for.   I support an ending where characters succeed within their plotlines.    Bran and Sansa should stick it out, not just flee the plots they were given.  Be a tree, baby, yeah!  It's the most important job there is, potentially, and paraplegics are encouraged to apply!  Succeed on your Star Trek style away mission, Sansa, by taking off that red shirt that's marked you for suffering and put on the gold shirt of command!

 

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

 In short:

  • The Grey King carried a unique psychic talent.
  • The Seastone Chair magnifies this power, This is why the the Ironborn alone among the first men did not convert to the worship of the Weirwoods.  The only religion that could take root there is that of the Drowned God, one that notably requires it's members to undergo a near-death experience, a condition that disables the Null effect and allows for psychic contact.
  • Harrenhal was designed to be a massive Seastone Chair, one that could cover the entire world in the Null effect, canceling out all magic.
  • The date dragons stopped being able to breed closely aligns with the date that House Lothston took possession of Harrenhal, and the date Daenery's dragons were born closely aligns with the period of time during which the last Whent is driven from Harrenhal.

This theory provides me with enough wood to rebuild Harrenhal. 

And because all roads lead to Petyr, what might it portend that he, lord of harenhal, is perhaps the final controller of magic's choker?!?   That's hot. 

Also, combined with Patchface's "testimony" from beneath the waves, it seems the power taking hold of the drowned Ironborn may be less centered around human psychic ability and moreso the elemental force of Water checking in and being heard from on the outskirts of this tale of Fire.  Ice magic may have a warmer cousin in Water magic, which could have sent the driftwood crown washing up onto shore and acted as the source of the Grey King's psychic influence, as Water tried to gain some market share in the larger Game of elemental forces vying to influence humanity.  (The trees would be Earth.)  (There's been off- handed references to Air Wizards in the books, I believe , too.  Though what their deal is who can say.)

1 hour ago, Headless Wolf said:

for The Black Wolf to live, and become a great warrior just like his uncle Brynden, 

I can see the story trailing off into hints of how the Rickon the Black Sheep of the Wolves would have to deal with Black Walder Frey ongoing, as the respective hardasses took the reins during the long winter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

If Skagosi are supposed to be the bannermen of the Starks, perhaps ol' Rick and Shag are already being looked after good and proper and he might not be the frothing lunatic we think/hope he has become.

Edited by Legitimate_Bastard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said:

And because all roads lead to Petyr, what might it portend that he, lord of harenhal, is perhaps the final controller of magic's choker?!?   That's hot.

That seems to be what's happening, yes. He's setting up a situation where Sansa is Lady of Harrenhal. It's not clear how much, if anything, he knows about the mythic implications of his plans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Shpati said:

Spoilers from a recent GRRM interview with Neil Tyson

  Reveal hidden contents

Basically confirms that we will see Skagos via Davos? I heard some theories saying that Rickon was already with the Umbers. But it seems pretty clear that he will go to Skagos and find Rickon.

 

 

While I found the Newsweek article interesting, finding the actual National Geographic Tyson StarTalk S5E8 was difficult, perhaps because the air date was yesterday. I like listening to martin speak in context without interference. Thanks.

Thought I would try and put a link. Might not work but at least ya got the https.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/tv/watch/d23e2044d61a7b02aea0a51caef674d1/

 

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope.

I think he becomes the Bolton's hostage, and Jon refuses their terms, and Rickon is executed.

They will say Jon did it because he didn't care about Rickon, because he was happy to see Rickon die because Rickon has a better claim to Winterfell and the north than bastard Jon. Ice eyed, winter hearted, black bastard blooded. But what the randos think won't matter to Jon.

Arya will wonder. Bran will wonder. Sansa will think he did it for all those reasons, because that's what she would do.

Right or wrong, Jon will have done it for true enough reasons, kill the boy and let the man be born, no one person is bigger than the north or the war for the dawn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Like every story for the next book, I have no idea where Martin is gonna take it. But secret heir living in a reclusive area until his destiny is unraveled is just too perfect for these novels. kinda like the Aegon story. plus I kinda don't like the idea of a bunch of armies rallying behind a child. Not that I don't like Rickon but the time for figureheads is over (if it ever existed) and the time has come for an actual leader to lead people.

His future also teeters heavily on Davos and Skagos. I get the vibe Skagosi have disdain for Starks and other mainlanders that might border on hostile. more info will probably be spread on their rebellion in this arc. Osha might have to keep Rickon hidden or disguised, and even if Davos recognizes the Direwolf, revealing Rickon would put him in danger.

Another factor I think will play into this arc is Hardhome. Davos will probably know of this by now (Nightswatchmen driven aground on Skane may have made it to Skagos) and want to help them because he's Davos. think I read something about the Starks denying Skagos sea travel after the rebellion. As hand of a king, Davos can cancel that (given they're not hostile towards him to) and they could be building ships as of the end of ADWD to take to Hardhome to save the Wildlings.

Also we gotta think on if Davos would really bring Rickon into this game where children get murdered all the time. he's definitely not safe on Skagos, but depending on how well Osha is to him and if the natives there don't want to kill him, he's safer there than he is as the top threat to the Boltons. There's a chance Davos could path up any anti-Stark feelings there to. I could see Davos just leaving Rickon there rather than make him an even bigger target to flay happy psycopaths. 

Edited by Mooncalf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I don't see Rickon becoming Lord of Winterfell. There is no foreshadowing nor any hint to that. The Starks who have that though are Jon and Sansa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/19/2019 at 12:36 PM, Damon_Tor said:

I think the problem is that Winter is a doomsday weapon set on a "Deadman's Switch". It's not deliberately triggered by the Children of the Forest, it's set to activate if certain conditions are not met. The "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" clause of the treaty is a part of that. The Winter detects Starks via their above-average psychic intercompatibility with their own Greenseer network.

The Children and/or Bloodraven sent the Direwolves, presumably because they don't want the Winter to come any more than humans do, and the Direwolves seem to be able to create psychic connections despite interference. This is why Summer can "feel" Ghost even when Ghost is beyond the wall, even though Jon himself cannot while the wall separates them. Bran contacts Jon with the wall between them, but explicitly uses the connection between Summer and Ghost to do so. If the Direwolves can connect to each other despite the wall, maybe they can connect despite the Null effect of the Hoare bloodline as well.

So think of the Direwolves like a signal booster. And maybe that plan even worked, and delayed the advance of Winter for a while, right up until the last Starks and their Wolves were forced to flee Winterfell.

It's a complicated hypothesis. In short:

  • The Grey King of the Iron Islands carried a unique psychic talent that interfered with other forms of magic, protecting himself and perhaps those very near him from psychic meddling as long as he wasn't unconscious (sleep is fine, a coma/NDE is not. Drowning seems to do the trick).
  • The Seastone Chair magnifies this power, and expands it to the entire island chain. Notably, Lonely Light is outside its radius, which is why magic persists there. This is why the the Ironborn, alone among the first men, did not convert to the worship of the Weirwoods, as mythologized in the story of Ygg the Demon Tree. The only religion that could take root there is that of the Drowned God, one that notably requires it's members to undergo a near-death experience, a condition that disables the Null effect and allows for psychic contact.
  • Harrenhal was designed to be a massive Seastone Chair, one that could cover the entire world in the Null effect, canceling out all magic and driving creatures that rely on magic to extinction. Aegon suddenly realizing he had to take over Westeros on the day Harren took up residence within the castle is not a coincidence.
  • The date dragons stopped being able to breed closely aligns with the date that House Lothston took possession of Harrenhal, and the date Daenery's dragons were born closely aligns with the period of time during which the last Whent is driven from Harrenhal.
  • Presumably Harrenhal's effective radius is reduced due to damage caused by Aegon's dragonfire. This is why Asshai is still capable of producing magic even during Lothston/Whent residence within the castle, and why Daenerys was being taken to Asshai to hatch her dragons.

So basically the Ironborn are the bad guys of the series, with the Drowned God being the big bad puppetmaster. The true enemy of everyone, including the Others and the Valyrians.

The current, more enlightened generation of the leaders of the Ironborn (Theon and Asha) are trying to break away from the old Ironborn ways while the older generation of the Ironborn leaders are unconsciously perpetuating (Balon, Aeron) or consciously working (Euron) towards the end of the world as we know it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/19/2019 at 4:06 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

If Skagosi are supposed to be the bannermen of the Starks, perhaps ol' Rick and Shag are already being looked after good and proper and he might not be the frothing lunatic we think/hope he has become.

The definition of "looked after good and proper" for the Skagosi might be completely different for everyone else. It's a good chance that Rickon is being raised up as a frothing lunatic.

In any case, Rickon has been difficult since the first book. While being raised by Osha and the Skagosi might give him a little discipline, he's not going to be the cuddly type. Plus, from what I have gathering, he's a pretty powerful skinchanger -- it's like as second-nature as breathing to him. As a matter of fact, I think Rickon has the ability to skinchange into Shaggydog while also being present, conscious and mobile in his physical body.

In any case, I don't think Jon will become Lord of Winterfell. I think he will just be the King of Winter, the King in the North. He would likely leave Lordship of Winterfell to Rickon and act as his regent. Sansa -- who is bound to be Lady Arryn at this point -- will act as the Lady of Winterfell, a position that will have more in common with being a steward and a homemaker rather than a consort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its very possible that Rickon's destined to be the new Lord of Winterfell, but I wouldn't mind if it was Sansa or Arya who claimed that title. But I hope for something more unforseen than Rickon claiming the birthright and so on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

So basically the Ironborn are the bad guys of the series, with the Drowned God being the big bad puppetmaster. The true enemy of everyone, including the Others and the Valyrians.

The current, more enlightened generation of the leaders of the Ironborn (Theon and Asha) are trying to break away from the old Ironborn ways while the older generation of the Ironborn leaders are unconsciously perpetuating (Balon, Aeron) or consciously working (Euron) towards the end of the world as we know it.

 

It's not black and white. "Turning magic off" is only seen as evil if you're of the opinion that magic is largely a force for good, or if you happen to be a member of a species that relies on magic for your survival or even sentience.

Seeing as GRRM has gone on record that dragons are analogs for nukes, and given his position on nuclear proliferation, I would caution anyone against a blanket "magic good, muggles bad" view of the series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

It's not black and white. "Turning magic off" is only seen as evil if you're of the opinion that magic is largely a force for good, or if you happen to be a member of a species that relies on magic for your survival or even sentience.

Seeing as GRRM has gone on record that dragons are analogs for nukes, and given his position on nuclear proliferation, I would caution anyone against a blanket "magic good, muggles bad" view of the series.

Hmmm

So I wonder what this means for the Stark family, a family that is just as ancient and magical as the Targaryens...if not moreso.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

Its very possible that Rickon's destined to be the new Lord of Winterfell, but I wouldn't mind if it was Sansa or Arya who claimed that title. But I hope for something more unforseen than Rickon claiming the birthright and so on.

If you look at foreshadowing and the trajectory of Sansa's (and Jon's) narrative that they are most likely to be ruling the North. Jon and Sansa are the only ones of the Starks who dream of rebuilding Winterfell. They are the only ones of the Starks who refer themselves as the 'blood of Winterfell'. They are the only ones of the Starks who want to have children. King and Queen imagery is very strong in their narratives too. This may make some people uncomfortable, but there is also a lot of foreshadowing of Jon and Sansa end up marrying each other.

Edited by The Snow Queen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×