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Which Tyler

UK Politics: Awaiting MV3

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7 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

Which of the Brexit party's policies do you like best, out of interest?

Leaving the EU.  

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Well technically their only policy is 'leaving the EU at all costs'. You're so desperate to get out that you're happy to torpedo everything around you?

And you're also happy to vote for a bunch of bigoted arseholes, that doesn't bother you at all?

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11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well it is inaccurate because being a stupid bigot isn’t the same as being a Nazi

What is the distinction and why is it so important to you?

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

and liking it when someone compares someone’s behaviour to being a Nazi is not the same as being racist. 

OK, but this is not a fair or complete description of what happened. What happened was that Tennant voiced approval of Bloom using a Nazi slogan to accuse someone of being a Nazi because they happened to be German. Bloom's own behaviour in voicing that slogan can be more fairly compared to 'being a Nazi' than the behaviour of the target of his wrath. 

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Implying that someone is a Nazi is pretty extreme , even if it seems to be a well worn out insult these days. 

So you would, after all this, say that Bloom and Tennant were in the wrong, then? 

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

But yeah I do care when I see so called reliable news sources using dishonest tactics, rather than to report the news, to try and change opinion. Obviously it wouldn’t bother anyone here because it’s against people you hate anyway. 

Well, that's my point. Much clearer and more serious examples of dishonest reporting can be found every day, often deployed to whip up opinion against immigrants, trans people, or the EU, in outlets that make it a daily habit to mislead people on their front page. Yet it doesn't seem to bother you when that happens. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

Well technically their only policy is 'leaving the EU at all costs'. You're so desperate to get out that you're happy to torpedo everything around you?

And you're also happy to vote for a bunch of bigoted arseholes, that doesn't bother you at all?

No, it doesn't bother me at all.  I'll probably vote Conservative, but if their poll rating starts heading into single figures, that will be a wasted vote, so then I'd support TBP as my next choice.  This election is basically a glorified opinion poll on EU membership.

Edited by SeanF

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50 minutes ago, mormont said:

What is the distinction and why is it so important to you?

Being an idiot who is offensive and uses inappropriate language is a world a way from believing in an ideology of racial purity and genocide.. why do I need to explain this? ‘Nazi’ as a term has become almost meaningless if people throw it around like confetti.

I’m not even here to defend Bloom, I’m not sure why you want to keep bringing it back to him. This is about the Guardian suggesting that someone from The Brexit Party supports a Nazi ideology, which doesn’t appear to have any validity.  I wouldn’t congratulate bloom and his comments were idiotic, that’s not the point I’m getting at though. The Guardian is attempting to sew a narrative into a story that just isn’t there, relying on click bait and laziness to cover themselves.

And yes I have a problem with dishonest reporting wherever it is, and right wing media is full of it. The Tories have been delighting in using these tactics against labour for a while now and I take no pleasure in it. Howver I read the Guardian every day and they do try and appear above stuff like that. They aren’t though, we live in a click bait media world.

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1 hour ago, Soylent Brown said:

Well technically their only policy is 'leaving the EU at all costs'. You're so desperate to get out that you're happy to torpedo everything around you?

And you're also happy to vote for a bunch of bigoted arseholes, that doesn't bother you at all?

We shouldn’t really be having to vote in these elections at all,  but the hope is that even if everyone voted for the Brexit party they wouldn’t have to stay in their new jobs very long at all because we’d be out

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Being an idiot who is offensive and uses inappropriate language is a world a way from believing in an ideology of racial purity and genocide.

It's a world away from being a bigot, too. The question you're answering is not the one you were asked, and I wonder why that is? 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

‘Nazi’ as a term has become almost meaningless if people throw it around like confetti.

So, again, let me ask a simple, direct question which you seem reluctant to address. Was Bloom wrong to throw this term around like confetti? Was Tennant wrong to applaud him doing so? Yes or no?

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I’m not even here to defend Bloom

You've done so repeatedly, insisting that it's so very wrong to imply that he's a Nazi. Either you're defending Bloom, or you're really concerned with people using that term. But if it's the latter, you should be condemning Bloom, because that's what he did. You're happy to condemn the Guardian for implying it, but strangely reluctant to condemn Bloom for doing it openly: despite the fact that the former has considerably more justification. 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

This is about the Guardian suggesting that someone from The Brexit Party supports a Nazi ideology, which doesn’t appear to have any validity.

If you think the Brexit party isn't absolutely riddled with people who support a Nazi ideology, you're in denial. 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

The Guardian is attempting to sew a narrative into a story that just isn’t there, relying on click bait and laziness to cover themselves.

I'd argue the narrative very much is there. Again, using a Nazi slogan in public is not normal behaviour. Doing it ostensibly to accuse someone else of being a Nazi, for no real reason, can quite justifiably be seen as a matter of concern: an example of normalising unacceptable discourse. That is the narrative the Guardian article seems to me to be putting forward, and it's completely fair. 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

And yes I have a problem with dishonest reporting wherever it is

Can you point me to any example of you criticising dishonest reporting about, say, Michel Barnier?

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5 minutes ago, mormont said:

If you think the Brexit party isn't absolutely riddled with people who support a Nazi ideology, you're in denial. 

Of course he's in denial. They all are. Just like Danny Baker, I'm willing to bet he actually believes he isn't a racist.

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Just a short link, for a longer read. Yes, it's Ian Dunt, again.

This time he takes some time to discuss Frogface's new party.

Similarities to some posts here are of course purely incidental.

Quote

[...]

They pound a relentless drumbeat of betrayal, humiliation and destruction. Theresa May's deal "would only have been signed by a country that had been defeated in war", Farage said at a recent rally. The country was "humbled… humiliated". The "democratic process has been willfully betrayed". The political class are "treacherous".

So that's the combination: an absence of rational political content, an overabundance of emotional content, and a narrative frame focused on betrayal and humiliation.

Then the emotional part kicks in. Emotions can't be assessed or challenged. They cannot be falsified or refuted. They are simply felt or they are not. There is no human improvement that can take place through a political debate conducted exclusively through feelings.

What are the emotions Farage encourages? Is it love and the common brotherhood of man? Hell, no. It is the same old story we always get from nationalist authoritarians: division and hatred. The nation is pure and good, but it is besieged from outside by enemies and inside by traitors. The shadowy elite are conspiring in the nation's decline. 

It's no coincidence Farage appeared on the insane InfoWars programme with the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones recently. His worldview is drenched in waist-deep conspiracy gibberish.

[...]

Once you start paying attention, it quickly becomes clear that almost everything Farage says is a conspiracy theory. A Remain parliament stopped Brexit, he says, even though the vast majority of MPs want Brexit to happen and the deal would have gotten through if it wasn't for hardline Brexiter MPs. May herself is branded a Remainer, despite her every word being about delivering Brexit. So either MPs are secretely pursuing a Remain plot, or the prime minister is. 

Note how both outcomes - Brexit happening and Brexit not happening - are a betrayal by some form of Remain conspiracy, either in parliament or Downing Street. We hear these lies so often we start to accept them as normal, but once you question them it is clear what they are. They're conspiracy theory. They're exactly the kind of babbling nonsense Alex Jones is always screaming about on his internet show.

That's the headline conspiracy, but Farage has another one for almost every aspect of society. At one recent rally he insisted young people opposed Brexit because of the "constant bias, prejudice and brainwashing" in British universities, and then insisted educational institutions were systematically marking-down students who supported leaving the EU.

 

[...]

Who can you trust? No-one. What information can you rely on? None at all. There's just the party and its leader, who offer you emotional reassurance without any intellectual component for you to evaluate it. Your capacity for individual judgement is whittled away. The trust is not based on testable propositions, like policies and argument, but on feelings.

They call themselves patriots, but in truth the Brexit party opposes the values which might make anyone truly proud to be British: the ability to scrutinise power, the triumph of reason over passion in political discourse, and the rejection of conspiracy theory. They're in a war not just against other political parties, but against our whole way of doing things.

 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Was Bloom wrong to throw this term around like confetti? Was Tennant wrong to applaud him doing so? Yes or no?

I did address it. I've repeatedly said I don't agree with his actions, nor should they be congratulated and that they were idiotic. It doesn't make him a Nazi however, nor does someone liking it on Facebook. 

Quote

If you think the Brexit party isn't absolutely riddled with people who support a Nazi ideology, you're in denial. 

I'm not aware of anyone in the Brexit party calling for racial genocide, but if the Guardian wants to cover that rather than implying people are nazis for liking something someone once said then I'm fine them doing that.

Quote

Again, using a Nazi slogan in public is not normal behaviour.

Not normal is not the same as being a Nazi. The Guardian created the association with its wording. 

Quote

Can you point me to any example of you criticising dishonest reporting about, say, Michel Barnier?

The only reason I am commenting on this at all is because someone posted up the link on here as a way of proving their own view of something, I'm pointing out the dishonesty in the headline and the reporting. 

But as a recent example I might mention that I recently saw a panel section with Change UKs Gavin Estler and the Brexit Parties Martin Daubney. Daubney misrepresented Estler's comments, saying he called Brexit supporters Village idiots. Estler did not say this, and Daubney got this from a poorly written Huff Post article. It made Daubney look stupid and I would say the conversation was quite dishonest on Daubneys part. 

Actually a lot of Brexit evangelists talk absolute rot and completely misrepresent the situation, mischaracterise the EU and members of its Parliament. Its unfortunate that there are so many of these types of people around the campaign. But I don't bother posting about this because there are more than enough Remainers here to do it for me.

That doesn't mean I think being in the EU is best for Britain or that there isn't a lot to criticise about the EU. 

 

Edited by Heartofice

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Posted (edited)

I'll go ahead that the hivemind is in agreement on this, and case closed, but let's throw it out there in case anyone wants to say their piece.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48212693

The BBC has sacked Danny Baker, saying he showed a "serious error of judgement" over his tweet about the Duke and Duchess of Sussex's baby.

The tweet, which he later deleted but which has been circulated on social media, showed an image of a couple holding hands with a chimpanzee dressed in clothes with the caption: "Royal Baby leaves hospital".

...

Edited by Which Tyler

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7 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

I'll go ahead that the hivemind is in agreement on this, and case closed, but let's throw it out there in case anyone wants to say their price.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48212693

The BBC has sacked Danny Baker, saying he showed a "serious error of judgement" over his tweet about the Duke and Duchess of Sussex's baby.

The tweet, which he later deleted but which has been circulated on social media, showed an image of a couple holding hands with a chimpanzee dressed in clothes with the caption: "Royal Baby leaves hospital".

...

And on that note, I’ll link a NPR podcast from this morning examining what it’s going to be like, growing up as a biracial royal, and about growing up biracial in general. Well worth a listen.

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27 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

I'll go ahead that the hivemind is in agreement on this, and case closed, but let's throw it out there in case anyone wants to say their piece.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48212693

The BBC has sacked Danny Baker, saying he showed a "serious error of judgement" over his tweet about the Duke and Duchess of Sussex's baby.

The tweet, which he later deleted but which has been circulated on social media, showed an image of a couple holding hands with a chimpanzee dressed in clothes with the caption: "Royal Baby leaves hospital".

...

Can't say I'm surprised. He's always been an odious twat. But he's no idiot, and for a man as plugged-in as he is, there's no way he's unaware of Archie's heritage, not to mention the vile racist abuse Meghan's already been subjected to. 

The way some of the Gammons are reacting to his plight is hilarious tho. 

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8 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Can't say I'm surprised. He's always been an odious twat. But he's no idiot, and for a man as plugged-in as he is, there's no way he's unaware of Archie's heritage, not to mention the vile racist abuse Meghan's already been subjected to. 

The way some of the Gammons are reacting to his plight is hilarious tho. 

 

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Did you have a point to make? 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

Did you have a point to make? 

Not really.

Edited by Heartofice

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It'd be nice if people could leave the tweets of their favourite far-right Twitter trolls in their own feed, rather than polluting this thread with them.

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5 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

It'd be nice if people could leave the tweets of their favourite far-right Twitter trolls in their own feed, rather than polluting this thread with them.

Far right? Lol.

The tweet seemed pretty appropriate given some of the comments. 

I notice even arch lefty James o’brien has come to the defence of Danny Baker. He must be a racist then as well I guess.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Far right? Lol.

The tweet seemed pretty appropriate given some of the comments. 

I notice even arch lefty James o’brien has come to the defence of Danny Baker. He must be a racist then as well I guess.

Is it funny because he's barely even right wing at all compared to you? Have I messed up there?

The tweet is from a dipshit mocking the situation in an attempt to provoke a reaction, which judging from his timeline is something as important to him as oxygen. It offers nothing useful as far as discussion of the Baker situation goes - he has no interest in defending Baker, he's defending casual racism.

Edited by Soylent Brown

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