Jump to content

Recommended Posts

She has 0 negotiation skills or compromise. Without Tyrion she would have already burned kings landing to the ground. She kills anyone who refuses to be her servant simply because of her last name and false belief of last targaryen?

How people haven't seen her psycho leanings for seasons is beyond me. Too much emotion dictating their perception. If it was about fair rule and birth right etc. She would be supporting Jon's claims immediately. No she's self-serving willing to sit on the throne at all costs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to put a disclaimer on this post by proclaiming that I am a fan of book Daenerys even if I don't necessarily agree with all of her thoughts regarding her birthright to the Iron Throne - she's a very morally complex person and I find her very fascinating.

However, this is not the books, and thus I am confused by some of the vitriolic reactions to this plotting against Dany. The main argument for her seems to be "she's an amazing person who has tried her best to save innocents and wants to make the world a better place. She would be a great ruler and the fact she prioritised the threat in the North over the threat in the South proves this."

For one, to echo the sentiments of a previous poster, the threat in the North was a threat to the entire realm. Even if Dany had gone to take care of Cersei first, if the White Walkers had made it past the North, she would have had to deal with them sooner or later, and without the assistance of the North behind her in this scenario, she would have been in an extremely precarious position. Taking down the enemy in the North was not "Jon's war" as she made it out to be in 8x02, it was everyone in Westeros' war and yet she didn't seem to realise that. Her obsession over claiming the Iron Throne and being a ruler clearly clouded her judgement and her speech in that conversation with Sansa. She saw the Great War against the dead as someone else's war? She wants to be queen of Westeros and yet the army of the dead was someone else's enemy? This seems very questionable to me and indicative of certain delusions that fans of show Daenerys like to cling onto.

Yes, Daenerys likes to prance on about how she wants to save innocents and free slaves and break the wheel and all that, but what has she done to prove this after arriving in Westeros? Disregarding the "just queen" shtick for a moment, she seems to base a lot of her claim on the fact (in her eyes) that it is her "birthright" as the last Targaryen. She wants to reclaim the Targaryen dynasty and can't possibly comprehend why some Westerosi might not be a fan of this idea, even though she knows what her father did and how badly he damaged the realm. She wants to "break the wheel" yet refuses independence to a Kingdom that, by all means, showed no threat to her. The North has been ravaged and defiled and this was made clear to her, yet her obsession with ruling over the entirety of the nation prevents her from granting this simple request. Giving the North away does no harm to her, yet her pride prevents her from doing so. It's quite frankly asinine. With regard to Sansa, she says, "she doesn't have to like me, but I am her queen and she has to respect me", essentially. This also works in contrast to the narrative that she's a decent person. You are not owed respect just because you are a "queen" - it is your actions which demand respect as a ruler, and thus far Sansa hasn't seen any actions from you which would demand such a thing. Again, fighting in the North isn't fighting someone else's war - by all rights, it's fighting her war, which she doesn't seem to ever acknowledge, and that is a frightening.

Yes, she's done good things. Her crusade against slavery was noble and just even if the execution could have been handled more efficiently (but I'm not the type to hold that against a fictional character - people are human and make mistakes, and a character being perfect is boring. It's only realistic Dany would have struggled with this and I think she did the best she could in this scenario.) However, in additions to the arguments I have put forth here, her constant vitriol of "I am the rightful queen of the seven Kingdoms by my Targaryen blood" is incredibly questionable. You want to be a good ruler, that's fine. You want to make life better for people, that's fine. But by what rights does a good person decide they have a right to a throne purely because of their blood? If you really cared about making life better for people, why didn't you stay as Queen of Slaver's Bay, where the people there still needed you? She left them in the hands of Daario, ffs. He can't govern Slaver's Bay, realistically it would go to hell with him in her place (though admittedly, the show is not one for accurate portrayals of realism.) You could have stayed and continued to fight for a better life for all of these people and instead you take a war to Westeros. Just be honest - you want justice, but what you want most is a Throne, and a good life for the people is an afterthought. If she actually had the throne, I won't deny she would have the potential to be a good ruler - but her way of thinking about it and her method of achieving it is very much concerning and her fans really don't seem to take into account any of the valid points against her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, starklover said:

does anyone think that dany was acting selfless telling jon that he couldnt tell sansa and ayra about who he was?

No.

I think she was defending her claim, afraid Sansa would push the easily led and mentally deficient Jon to usurp her role. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

It’s pretty much a blow to everyone in-universe should they find out. But I can empathize with it affecting Dany who all her life believed that apart from Viserys, she was the last of the Targaryens.

In a story where family and name is everything, it holds more weight to her than anyone of us can truly understand today. No one’s name really carries the same weight a Great House’s or royal’s name would in our own feudal era. We’re nobodies

So that just makes it doubly wretched of her to want Jon to give his true identity up, especially after years of being a bastard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

She’s a tragic hero. She sacrifices her army and her dragons to save the world of the living against the army of the dead and no one thanks her for it.

All her life she’s been trying to reclaim the throne and everything she’s done up to this point brought her to where she is now. 

How anyone can not appreciate her drive and love for her people is beyond me

It’s beyond me why anyone would think that it is anything less than everyone’s duty to try stop the army of the dead killing everyone.

“Everyone” does include Dany, and her armies ya know

and if she’s thinks of herself as their queen, and they are her people, then it is not a sacrifice at all... but her duty.... it’s kinda the whole point of being a queen, to protect ones people and their welfare

How can you call yourself a queen if you’re gonna sit back and hide on dragonstone, or down in kings landing, allowing your supposed subjects to get slaughtered?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Little Bird of the North said:

But by what rights does a good person decide they have a right to a throne purely because of their blood?

Living in a setting where rulership is inherited? Westeros isn't a democracy, and isn't about to become one anytime soon, so I honestly don't see the problem with this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Living in a setting where rulership is inherited? Westeros isn't a democracy, and isn't about to become one anytime soon, so I honestly don't see the problem with this.

 

And what of the other problems I put forth?

"Rulership is inherited" - says who? When the Targaryens came and conquered 300 years ago and made themselves royalty and then decreed that all of their successors shall thus be royalty, how is that any different from what the Baratheons did? They rebelled and conquered and declared themselves royalty. Considering this, how is the argument of "rulership is inherited" a point in favour of Dany? By all the rights that the Targaryens granted themselves, anybody who then conquers Westeros has that right until they are usurped as well. Targaryens declared themselves royalty and rulers, so why isn't anybody else free to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When have Starks not been screwups? Rickard, Lyanna, Neddard, Brandon, Cat (marrying one addles the brains), Robb all caused wars, died and got people killed by their emotions and honour. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Figdoni said:

It’s beyond me why anyone would think that it is anything less than everyone’s duty to try stop the army of the dead killing everyone.

“Everyone” does include Dany, and her armies ya know

and if she’s thinks of herself as their queen, and they are her people, then it is not a sacrifice at all... but her duty.... it’s kinda the whole point of being a queen, to protect ones people and their welfare

How can you call yourself a queen if you’re gonna sit back and hide on dragonstone, or down in kings landing, allowing your supposed subjects to get slaughtered?

 

When you've performed your duty to such a degree of selflessness (implied as desirable in your post) and lack of accountability from others, you give the less scrupulous people of the world massive, disastrous advantages. 

You have to realize that the victory over Cersei is still uncertainty from the eyes of the characters. Whatever Dany may be in the future (and that also depends on the competency and loyalty of her advisors), her benevolence and keeping of words are greater than those of Cersei. Yet, Cersei has been rewarded for her lack of integrity with 20,000 Gold Cloaks and Dany has been rewarded with Northmen that nearly reneged on their promises and with her camp potentially breaking up due to Jon's heritage. 

Okay, maybe Jon would make a better king after the war. But it cannot be denied that Danny has sacrificed a lot and that she has been eying her rather modest goals for a very long time. Just and acknowledging rewards should not be unaccountably taken from her, especially when she lost the most (in both men and time) in the process of the removal of Cersei and Euron.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Little Bird of the North said:

And what of the other problems I put forth?

"Rulership is inherited" - says who? When the Targaryens came and conquered 300 years ago and made themselves royalty and then decreed that all of their successors shall thus be royalty, how is that any different from what the Baratheons did? They rebelled and conquered and declared themselves royalty. Considering this, how is the argument of "rulership is inherited" a point in favour of Dany? By all the rights that the Targaryens granted themselves, anybody who then conquers Westeros has that right until they are usurped as well. Targaryens declared themselves royalty and rulers, so why isn't anybody else free to?

They are free to do whatever, if they have the means. It's why the Targs were kept busy after the conquest, and why Dany still has to go to war to reclaim Westeros. But her blood is still of huge importance because Westeros recognizes hereditory power. Bobby B still had to base his claim on his Targ ancestry and hunt down Dany and Viserys to secure his position. "Power resides where men believe it resides" and all that.

So yeah, it doesn't bother me in the slightest because it's the norm in this world. If I were to criticise Dany for her ambitions, I'd have to do the same for every other noble character too. Why doesn't Sansa question her what makes her more deserving of being Lady of Winterfell than Washerwoman McPeasantface?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't believe people blame Sansa for pushing Jon's claim.

People speak about honor when they talk to Ned, but forget one thing. Ned was honorable, that is for sure, but he was more than that. Remember what Jon said to Maester Aemon - "he would do the right thing". And like it or not, Sansa did the same.

In the scene with Tyrion, we see Sansa looking at Dan going with the army, exhausted and not properly taken care of, two dragons and her brother. Then Tyrion comes and all the doubts she had about Dany, intensifies when she understands that even Tyrion, her closest advisor, is actually afraid of Dany. She asks "Why her?" because that's the thing here. People are having some serious doubts about Dany and not seeing what Tyrion and Jon have been saying all along. She trusts Jon but not Dany. She bent the knee to Jon, not to Dany. Her king is Jon, that is whom she owes her loyalty, even if he doesn't want to push his claim. And at the end of the day, this scheme is doing the right thing. The right thing for Jon, Starks, North, Seven Kingdoms. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Risto said:

I can't believe people blame Sansa for pushing Jon's claim.

People speak about honor when they talk to Ned, but forget one thing. Ned was honorable, that is for sure, but he was more than that. Remember what Jon said to Maester Aemon - "he would do the right thing". And like it or not, Sansa did the same.

In the scene with Tyrion, we see Sansa looking at Dan going with the army, exhausted and not properly taken care of, two dragons and her brother. Then Tyrion comes and all the doubts she had about Dany, intensifies when she understands that even Tyrion, her closest advisor, is actually afraid of Dany. She asks "Why her?" because that's the thing here. People are having some serious doubts about Dany and not seeing what Tyrion and Jon have been saying all along. She trusts Jon but not Dany. She bent the knee to Jon, not to Dany. Her king is Jon, that is whom she owes her loyalty, even if he doesn't want to push his claim. And at the end of the day, this scheme is doing the right thing. The right thing for Jon, Starks, North, Seven Kingdoms. 

First Sansa is clearly jealous that Danny has dragons. 

And the ridiculous is that we are being told how great Danny is for seasons. Then in this ep tyrion is afraid of her and starts thinking of treason the moment he hears about another targ? 

A bit much no? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, divica said:

First Sansa is clearly jealous that Danny has dragons. 

And the ridiculous is that we are being told how great Danny is for seasons. Then in this ep tyrion is afraid of her and starts thinking of treason the moment he hears about another targ? 

A bit much no? 

Is she clearly jealous? I mean, there should be a lot of emotions - fear being the main one, then of course jealousy etc. Those dragons are nuclear heads. And we like to be sure in those having them, right.

A bit much? Yes. But it is the narrative problem. Like it or not, and I don't like it, we can only talk about what we have in the show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Risto said:

bit much? Yes. But it is the narrative problem. Like it or not, and I don't like it, we can only talk about what we have in the show.

Just saying it is completely unrealistic that her supporters would suddenly start thinking of betraying her or that she sounds like a dictator... It is completly out of the blue after the fight with the WW.... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, divica said:

Just saying it is completely unrealistic that her supporters would suddenly start thinking of betraying her or that she sounds like a dictator... It is completly out of the blue after the fight with the WW.... 

Is it unrealistic? Tyrion's problems with Dany started long ago. Varys' also. And she made some rather problematic claims during that council scene.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the pacing of the story and people turning against Dany is indeed fast but Jon Snow apparently has certain leverage against Dany:

  • Better claim
  • He is the man who defeated the Boltons and avenged the dead Starks
  • He was willing to co-operate with everyone in order to protect mankind from the Others
  • He is a Stark, a Targ, raised as a bastard, joined the NW, joined the wildlings, became King in the North 
  • He is loved by his siblings, which include influential Sansa-who has the support of the Vale, mysterious Bran and assassin Arya

On the other hand Dany:

  • Is the daughter not of hero Rhaegar but of the Mad King
  • Certain decisions in Westeros (execution of the Tarlys) have turned against her
  • Has no close relative other than Jon to support her
  • Her trully amazing transformation from scared princess to khaleesi, to leader of dothraki, to mother of dragons, breaker of chains was superb but had almost zero impact to the people in Westeros.
  • The Tyrells and the Martells are gone, only Yara appears to support her and Gendry.
  • Two of her dragons are dead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Risto said:

Is it unrealistic? Tyrion's problems with Dany started long ago. Varys' also. And she made some rather problematic claims during that council scene.

She was impulsive in burning the tarlys... 

Therefore now tyrion and varys should instantly abandon Danny and prefer Jon? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, starklover said:

does anyone think that dany was acting selfless telling jon that he couldnt tell sansa and ayra about who he was?

No, this is not at all selfless. Daenerys wants to assure that she will rule and people will submit. 

However, of course Daenerys is right that once people know about Jon's true parentage they will support him even more.

The scene of loneliness at the wake feast showed Daenerys very clearly that the Northerner adore Jon and want him as king. No one celebrated her, they applauded to Jon Snow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×