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Free Northman Reborn

Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

I think the story is poised to have stannis lose the war. In order to have the story progress stannis has to be defeated and die or join the NW.

I agree that he has to lose, but not to the Boltons. The Boltons are much weaker end game material than Stannis. I understand that the show focused an entire season on Ramsay vs the Starks, but I'd call that a side quest more than story progression, and they had to deviate quite a lot from the books in order to have it happen anyway.

Keep in mind Jon doesn't need to prove himself in battle to become KitN because Robb's will exists in the books.

12 minutes ago, weirwoodface said:

And there's also what GRRM referred to as the Chekov's gun of Nymeria and her ever-growing packs of rampaging wolves in the Riverlands.

The pack absolutely has to pay off, but we've clearly seen that Arya can serve as a PoV for them and maybe even control Nymeria regardless of where she is. Arya doesn't need to come to the Riverlands for the gun to be fired.

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2 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I agree that he has to lose, but not to the Boltons. The Boltons are much weaker end game material than Stannis. I understand that the show focused an entire season on Ramsay vs the Starks, but I'd call that a side quest more than story progression, and they had to deviate quite a lot from the books in order to have it happen anyway.

Keep in mind Jon doesn't need to prove himself in battle to become KitN because Robb's will exists in the books.

Not really. My personal theory is that the clansmen will abandon him because tey think he has no chance of winning, his people burn people alive, pray to a foreign god, farya is already saved… Without the clansmen his army is very small.

And roose has to have something special. If you read the chapters about him he doesnt think like a normal person… Like he is happy that ramsay would kill his baby son… Even if bolt on isn t completly right there has to be something...

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I believe that Martin told the ending of all POV characters and its what we see in the show. It seems illogical because the show couldnt connect the dots and because secondary characters are missing. 

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13 minutes ago, divica said:

Not really. My personal theory is that the clansmen will abandon him because tey think he has no chance of winning, his people burn people alive, pray to a foreign god, farya is already saved… Without the clansmen his army is very small.

And roose has to have something special. If you read the chapters about him he doesnt think like a normal person… Like he is happy that ramsay would kill his baby son… Even if bolt on isn t completly right there has to be something...

You make a good point about fArya, but on the other hand the clansmen don't really plan to return home. Part of their reason for joining Stannis was that old men usually go out in the cold to die anyway during hard winters, to leave more food for the young, and they'd rather die in battle.

As for Roose, even if he has some special powers, unless they connect to the main plot line, he's still going to be a side quest. I suppose he could be this ancient creature who can reveal something about the Others, but that would feel a bit too tacked on for me (and not really necessary, considering Bran is linked to the weirnet).

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1 hour ago, Grdas1979 said:

I believe that Martin told the ending of all POV characters and its what we see in the show. It seems illogical because the show couldnt connect the dots and because secondary characters are missing. 

Unlikely as there are several secondary characters with POVs in the books. And GRRM keeps insisting that he hasn't mapped out the endings for the secondary characters.

Edited by teej6

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Does he? I must have missed that part.

He doesn’t.

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34 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

You make a good point about fArya, but on the other hand the clansmen don't really plan to return home. Part of their reason for joining Stannis was that old men usually go out in the cold to die anyway during hard winters, to leave more food for the young, and they'd rather die in battle.

But the problem is that now they are going to fight the entire north (not just the boltons) for stannis that they don t seem to like… And they might die without even fighting… Stannis has no means to breach winterfell nor siege it…

There is no good reason for them to stand with stannis… 

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47 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

You make a good point about fArya, but on the other hand the clansmen don't really plan to return home. Part of their reason for joining Stannis was that old men usually go out in the cold to die anyway during hard winters, to leave more food for the young, and they'd rather die in battle.

As for Roose, even if he has some special powers, unless they connect to the main plot line, he's still going to be a side quest. I suppose he could be this ancient creature who can reveal something about the Others, but that would feel a bit too tacked on for me (and not really necessary, considering Bran is linked to the weirnet).

I never thought Roose had special powers or was connected to the Others, and judging by the show, he doesn't.  It will be very disappointing if Stannis, who has been called a great military commander throughout the series, loses against the Boltons and dies.  I would hope that he will get a victory here, at least a semi victory before it all falls apart for him.  I also hope that it's not Ramsay that kills Roose, I would find that very unsatisfying.

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

D&D have never cared all that much about Bran as a character, so I have no doubt that King Bran is 100% GRRM. 

GRRM gave D&D the outline in 2013 or 2014, can’t remember when, and Bran becoming king may have been part of this outline. At the time I guess he was still hoping he could make the 5-yr gap work. I don’t know when he gave up on the time gap but we now know he has. So the question now is how will he make it work considering he has to now to make the plot of a 10-11 yr old king believable. IMO, Bran is not going to age much more in the next 2 books so GRRM will have to make this plot believable somehow. Since the show aged up all the Stark kids, they could show Bran being king or Arya being captain of a ship, but as they are still kids in the books, it may have to be included in some epilogue. 

Edited by teej6

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20 minutes ago, divica said:

But the problem is that now they are going to fight the entire north (not just the boltons) for stannis that they don t seem to like… And they might die without even fighting… Stannis has no means to breach winterfell nor siege it…

There is no good reason for them to stand with stannis… 

I subscribe to the theory that Stannis will use the frozen lake to defeat the Freys, then dress his own men in their armor and enter Winterfell by guile. The Pink Letter is supposed to be a direct result of this trick and a hint for the reader that it is taking place.

I also believe that Stannis's men and the loyal northern lords will tragically butcher each other because neither knows about the others' deception. Manderly's knights will fall in the same trap as the Freys, and Stannis won't be inclined to spare any survivors. The northern lords will defend themselves fiercely against a perceived Frey betrayal. So in the end Stannis will win, but there will be very few soldiers left in the North. Then Ramsay's raven reaches Castle Black first, everyone believes Stannis lost, Jon is assassinated and everything turns to shit over there. Cue the Others breaching the Wall. Good luck everyone!

That's what I understand by progressing the story. I accept that I may be biased, but half a book of Jon Snow fighting the Boltons after Stannis dies in an anticlimactic way sounds like a turd sandwich to me and I don't want it! :commie:

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51 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

 I accept that I may be biased, but half a book of Jon Snow fighting the Boltons after Stannis dies in an anticlimactic way sounds like a turd sandwich to me and I don't want it! :commie:

Exactly! That felt like treading water in the show. I don't know about nearly all the soldiers getting killed, but the "ungrateful northeners" stuff could happen here, as I don't see Dany's forces marching up north through the snows in the depth of winter - they are all unused to the cold and there would be very little fodder too. Stannis, OTOH, did come north to win the people's loyalty by helping them and also to defend the realm against the Others, and is currently reaping very little recognition for it - which I don't expect to change that much even once he  removes the Boltons.

IMHO, the Others need to finally come to the forefront of at least a couple of PoV plotlines, otherwise they risk to become a travesty, like in the show. Also, I think that there is at least one vision, though I don't remember whose, that Stannis is going to be killed by the Others - which is why it would make sense if the attck on Winterfell happens, but they lose and the castle falls.

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15 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ah so similar to how Cersei just blew ip her rivals and took the Throne despite having zero claim to it.

On a serious note, though, I think the idea of a Great Council selecting a King has been carefully set up by George and will take place. However, I can so no realistic way in which Bran emerges as the Council’s choice of King.

If we take the leap that Bran leaves the cave (I'll believe it when I read it), and if Bran actually demonstrates that his powers of reading the past and possible futures or seeing tactical advantages through skinchanging ravens, etc., is of actual functional use to winning certain wars (which he really didn't in the show) then I could see that a Great Council may consider that a gives him an edge as a king (who would need a regent, given his age).

1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

I subscribe to the theory that Stannis will use the frozen lake to defeat the Freys, then dress his own men in their armor and enter Winterfell by guile. The Pink Letter is supposed to be a direct result of this trick and a hint for the reader that it is taking place.

I also believe that Stannis's men and the loyal northern lords will tragically butcher each other because neither knows about the others' deception. Manderly's knights will fall in the same trap as the Freys, and Stannis won't be inclined to spare any survivors. The northern lords will defend themselves fiercely against a perceived Frey betrayal. So in the end Stannis will win, but there will be very few soldiers left in the North. Then Ramsay's raven reaches Castle Black first, everyone believes Stannis lost, Jon is assassinated and everything turns to shit over there. Cue the Others breaching the Wall. Good luck everyone!

That's what I understand by progressing the story. I accept that I may be biased, but half a book of Jon Snow fighting the Boltons after Stannis dies in an anticlimactic way sounds like a turd sandwich to me and I don't want it! :commie:

Agreed - I think that is definitely set up in the Theon WoW chapter.

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A lot of people keep saying that north will become independent. But I don't see how this could happen. When winter comes, the north would be the most affected considering lacking food supply. The Boltons have taken the castle and WW would start killing people. The North would be the land to be most in need. They really would need southern support to keep themselves fed. So clamoring for independence now would be just stupid. 

The motto of the North is "the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives." I think rather than kingdoms breaking off, the WW threat would show them that they need to stick together. Aegon I conquered Westeros to unite the land, also based on a prophesy. This might be the reason. 

When it is all done, I'm not sure if there would be separate kingdoms to rule. Also about Jon becoming king. He's the (dead) Lord Commander of the NW. When WW comes, LC would be the most important leader and kind of like the "king" of the realm of humans, rather than the king of a certain land. 

Everyone now sees Dany becoming a tyrant too. I fail to see this yet in the books. She will probably deliver fire and blood to the slave masters and Mago. She also has her Euron storyline to complete. Besides, she's dying. She might go further east than anticipated, possibly exploring the Shadow by going underground through tunnels as Quaithe said. Now sure how GRRM plans to cram all the stuff in her threes prophesy storyline to two books. Also, she ends up the bride of fire, so that might mean she has to give herself to the fire as the last prophesied act. I'm not sure whether this "kills" her though. I feel like she might have an ending like the Wisdom in GRRM's short story "Glass Flower." That would actually be better than suddenly going mad and getting killed, making her entire arc really pointless. 

4 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

I think we have pretty good reasons to dismiss that Arya will be doing any of those things. So then the question becomes, what is Arya going to do? Clearly it is connected to something that was cut from the show.

I think so too. I think Arya has a major role to play in the WW/gods storyline given that she now serves the god of death. I thought she might be the one to tell us about the Doom of Valyria and how all of that plays into the WW storyline. She would probably be instrumental in defeating the WW, just not in the way it was portrayed on the show. 

1 hour ago, Maia said:

I don't see Dany's forces marching up north through the snows in the depth of winter - they are all unused to the cold and there would be very little fodder too

I know right! Dany and her dragons are not going to be very tolerant of the cold, about as much as the Starks are going to like the heat of Essos. Dragons I think really need the heat to survive. Dany and her army too would struggle a lot to get used to the climate if they ever end up there. Dany sees herself destroying an army of ice in her visions in the books. I always thought this meant the WW come farther south. Otherwise, how would the dragons--fire made flesh--fare in the wintry cold even native northerners can't bare? I thought the show really messed up this point. 

Edited by Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

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1 hour ago, Maia said:

Exactly! That felt like treading water in the show. I don't know about nearly all the soldiers getting killed, but the "ungrateful northeners" stuff could happen here, as I don't see Dany's forces marching up north through the snows in the depth of winter - they are all unused to the cold and there would be very little fodder too. Stannis, OTOH, did come north to win the people's loyalty by helping them and also to defend the realm against the Others, and is currently reaping very little recognition for it - which I don't expect to change that much even once he  removes the Boltons.

IMHO, the Others need to finally come to the forefront of at least a couple of PoV plotlines, otherwise they risk to become a travesty, like in the show. Also, I think that there is at least one vision, though I don't remember whose, that Stannis is going to be killed by the Others - which is why it would make sense if the attck on Winterfell happens, but they lose and the castle falls.

Good point about the ungrateful northerners. This wasn't convincing at all with Dany given the circumstances in the show, but it works perfectly for Stannis. I don't think she will march to Winterfell either, I think there's a high chance the North will be abandoned at least temporarily before the Others are dealt with.

I keep saying this, but I think the show had very strong reasons to avoid winter as much as possible. Filming on location in Iceland is one thing, but having snow on demand on large sets like Wintefell or locations like King's Landing would have been a huge production challenge and likely insanely expensive. Of course they would opt for a season of Ramsay over the Others invading early. Even in season 8, the snow is blatantly fake and never more than ankle deep. What were they going to do for a meter high snows, rebuild their sets in Alaska and keep their crew there to shoot in the winter?

I bet we'll see a much harsher and longer winter in the books. Luckily, George's imagination doesn't have budgetary constraints. :D

48 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I think so too. I think Arya has a major role to play in the WW/gods storyline given that she now serves the god of death. I thought she might be the one to tell us about the Doom of Valyria and how all of that plays into the WW storyline. She would probably be instrumental in defeating the WW, just not in the way it was portrayed on the show. 

I'm actually going with Brienne as the Last Hero 2.0. She has a "magic sword" after all, and this would vindicate her eight chapters of character development that a lot of people are complaining about. D&D probably thought Brienne wasn't important enough, or didn't know how to make this work for the character.

Remember that fight she had with Arya? You can call me a tinfoil hatter, but I think eventually we'll see that scene as a nod to this change. Kind of like "In the show, Arya is better than Brienne, so we are giving her the job of ending the Long Night". She even used the same knife move she used when she killed the Night King in that scene, so they're clearly connected.

This also means that book Jaime will get show Theon's ending. He will go full circle and die protecting Bran, which I find a lot more satisfying for his character than being squashed by a bunch of bricks.

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I don't see how Jon can become a major player if Stannis isn't defeated and killed by the Boltons. If Stannis takes Winterfell and destroy House Bolton, then if the show's unifyingof Danaerys and Jon will take place, Jon will sit around at the Wall and do nothing while Stannis leads the way either against the Others or Lannisters. If Stannis is defeated however, then suddenly Jon becomes the main mover in the North and we already know that the Boltons, if Stannis is defeated, have their sights on Jon.

Now it may be that Stannis and Jon can switch places through a really convoluted set of events, but that would make no sense to me and take away from the message on House Baratheon on how infighting and division leads to destruction, just as the Stark kids probably will come into a better position than either Lannister or Baratheon because they kept themselves on the same side and didn't turn on each other, despite both Baratheons and Lannisters having much better shots at becoming the top House than the Starks really had.

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12 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

I don't see how Jon can become a major player if Stannis isn't defeated and killed by the Boltons. If Stannis takes Winterfell and destroy House Bolton, then if the show's unifyingof Danaerys and Jon will take place, Jon will sit around at the Wall and do nothing while Stannis leads the way either against the Others or Lannisters. If Stannis is defeated however, then suddenly Jon becomes the main mover in the North and we already know that the Boltons, if Stannis is defeated, have their sights on Jon.

It's very simple, though.

Stannis is the false Azor Ahai, the king with an iron will who will break before he bends. The Others break through the Wall, and he is convinced it is his destiny and duty to stop them. The northern lords abandon him in fear, he is hopelessly outnumbered, so he burns Shireen for a blessing  from Rh'llor. Nothing happens, but he goes forth anyway, and all that happens is that his paltry forces get added to the armies of the dead. He is destroyed by the corpses of the very Freys he drowned and northmen he slaughtered to take Winterfell.

Perfect ending for him, now Jon finally succumbs to his wounds and is placed on a pyre, but he comes back to life again, and on top of it all he was Robb's chosen heir as well. Boom, everyone pins their hopes on him!

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21 hours ago, Masha said:

I think D&D took from lot fAegon/JonCon storyline besides Jorah getting grayscale. I think Dany will fight fAegon and kill him urged on by Tyrion who convinces her he is fake. JonCon will be the one triggered by the bells and will do something cruel. Dany will get together with Jon and try to marry him precisely because she will suspect/know that he is Rhaegar's son not just King of the North, she will learn about it before he does. (That book that Maester Mewin took). Jon will kill Dany and then will himself decide to go north. Perhaps for Val. Stannis will burn Shireen in a failed attempt to get a dragon, but this will factor in Jon's resurrection instead. I don't think Arya will kill the Night King. Bran will probably end up as the King of Westeros and Tyrion as his Hand. Barristan Selmy will get executed for treason, for trying to ally with fAegon because he will think Dany is losing it. 

Things I hope for in the books: all prophecies are addressed, even if meaningless, as long as they are not forgotten about.

I don't think Barristan will ally with FAegon.  I think he'll end up doing most of what we've seen Grey Worm do in the show.  Once it's all over he'll be the only person left to speak for Dany's administration.  Daario probably will be left behind to look after Meereen in Dany's absence, Missandei will probably live and he'll escort her back to Naath once it's all over.  

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2 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

Perfect ending for him, now Jon finally succumbs to his wounds and is placed on a pyre, but he comes back to life again, and on top of it all he was Robb's chosen heir as well. Boom, everyone pins their hopes on him!

If Jon's vows to the Watch are nulled by his death, the same should apply to Robb's will. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

If Jon's vows to the Watch are nulled by his death, the same should apply to Robb's will. 

They're not nulled by his death, they're nulled by the will.

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