US Politics - I'm not orange I'mpeach

[Darzin]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Getting back to the "political opportunist" frame of attack, this is just a non-starter for me.  The idea that Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders - or any presidential candidate for that matter (except Andrew Yang, maybe) - are one one-hundredth of a percent less of political animals, or even politically craven, than Harris is just patently naive.  If you support Warren or Sanders or anyone else because their policy preferences align closer to yours, great!  That's how elections are supposed to work.  But don't tell me it's because they have more sincere beliefs or are somehow less politically calculating.  That just demonstrates a distinctly sophomoric perspective of American politics.

But surely some people are more opportunistic then others? I understand as the public we get a managed view but some peoples convictions shine brighter than other. Bernie strikes me, and I'm not a Bernie supporter just to make this clear, but he strikes me as not really an opportunist at all he's someone whose been beating the same drum forever and now his tune is finally popular so get gets some time in the sun. Candidates are people who have core values and some have more such then others. 

Part of the issue as well is what are Kamala's policy preferences? I was originally a supporter of her way early in the primary it's not that she is a prosecutor it's what she did as prosecutor, and her general squishness on policies she has said twice she will ban private insurance twice and walked it back twice. In that CNN town hall she should have known her own goddamn healthcare plan, when she knew she would be asked that, and when it is the number one issue in the democratic campaign! and yet she had no idea, i'm not sure if that's opportunism or ignorance or what, but it's not something I want in a president.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Darzin said:

But surely some people are more opportunistic then others?

I think Kal was right to frame this more as the "genuineness" factor.  Are some more opportunistic than others?  Well, certainly they're not all equally opportunistic, but that's pretty opaque for the voters to actually discern.  The key is whether they come off as more opportunistic than their opponents.  Romney came off as disingenuous - and had that etch-a-sketch thing to boot - but do I think Obama wasn't just as politically calculating?  Not really no, he was just better at hiding it.  Same type of thing fucked over Kerry.  The perception is all that matters, electorally.  Whether one is slightly more opportunistic than others isn't something I'm really interested in trying to decipher, unless you have a Trump case which is..special.  They're all pretty damn opportunistic, is the point.

8 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Bernie strikes me, and I'm not a Bernie supporter just to make this clear, but he strikes me as not really an opportunist at all he's someone whose been beating the same drum forever and now his tune is finally popular so get gets some time in the sun. Candidates are people who have core values and some have more such then others. 

Bernie gets cred for fighting in the muck since I was in first grade, but yes he's just as opportunist as anybody and - obviously due to all that time in Congress - has a very large record of compromising votes.  This idea that he's been a consistent progressive saint for the past thirty years is a myth.  Anyway I don't really care about Bernie anyway.  Unless Warren tanks he's done.

[DireWolfSpirit]

3 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

The Grim Lottery of Surprise Medical Bill Stories
Journalists can occasionally help the victims of the health care industry's predations, but without major reform these abuses will continue.

https://newrepublic.com/article/155334/grim-lottery-surprise-medical-bill-stories

 

What a depressing state of affairs. 

[fionwe1987]

7 hours ago, karaddin said:

 

I love her brain! 

They say Democrats fall in love. And I think if anything explains Warren's rise, it's the slow process of more and more Democrats falling in love. 

Her campaign does a great job capitalizing such moments, but that such moments exist is all down to her.

[Maithanet]

EU Ambassador Sondland is going to defy the state department/White House and testify after all.

 

Quote

"Notwithstanding the State Department's current direction to not testify, Ambassador Sondland will honor the Committees' subpoena, and he looks forward to testifying on Thursday," his attorneys Robert Luskin and Kwame Manley wrote in a statement. "He has no agenda apart from answering the Committees' questions fully and truthfully."

Sondland planned to voluntarily appear on the Hill earlier this week, but his testimony was derailed that morning when the State Department blocked him from testifying. House Democrats issued a subpoena Tuesday evening demanding Sondland turn over documents and appear for a deposition next week.

His attorneys said that despite the subpoena for documents, they aren't able to produce any. That responsibility would fall to the State Department, they said.

"Ambassador Sondland does not control the disposition of his documents," his attorneys' statement said Friday morning. "By federal law and regulation, the State Department has sole authority to produce such documents, and Ambassador Sondland hopes the materials will be shared with the Committees in advance of his Thursday testimony."

That's good, I hope more people in the State Department and White House are willing to testify.  After all, the White House is asking them to defy a subpoena and thus the law.  It's not surprising that some people are uncomfortable with doing that. 

[Zorral]

Giuliani's coffin is getting the nails, which is terrific -- his cronies, Fraud Guarantee and Mafia Rave. arrested as they tried to leave the country ahead of being taken into custody at Dulles, after having had a raucous dinner in public with the shill once known by people who know nothing about NY or 9/11 as America's Mayor:

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/10/rudy-giuliani-ukraine-associates-indicted-043873

About damned time.

They were heading to Vienna to meet up with yet another Russian, who is fighting extradition to the US.

And, no surprise to anyone except maybe Giuliani, bedbug's in the process of throwing G under the bus.

In the meantime, Barr has been meeting with Rupert Murdoch ....

~~~~

As for Hillary, her authenticity or lack of it, her hawkishness or lack of it -- she sure created yet more disaster for her own financial profit in Haiti, for which millions are never going to forgive her.

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Regarding Biden, the nail isn’t in the coffin yet, but he’s probably done. His two best pitches, electability and inevitability, are now irrelevant. Polling consistently shows that others are just as electable, and inevitability only matters so long as it’s true. Now that these two advantages are gone, he has little else to stand on other than Obama’s third term, and even that isn’t that strong of an argument. And when you combine all of that with the unfair slanderous attacks, it’s hard to see him having a path absent other campaigns collapsing Harris style.  

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Regarding Biden, the nail isn’t in the coffin yet, but he’s probably done. His two best pitches, electability and inevitability, are now irrelevant. Polling consistently shows that others are just as electable, and inevitability only matters so long as it’s true. Now that these two advantages are gone, he has little else to stand on other than Obama’s third term, and even that isn’t that strong of an argument. And when you combine all of that with the unfair slanderous attacks, it’s hard to see him having a path absent other campaigns collapsing Harris style.  

Normally, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but with the outbreak of hostilities in the Middle East I think he still has a shot if the situation deteriorates. He has the most foreign policy chops of anyone running and foreign policy has been all but ignored in the debates up to now. I doubt that trend continues leading up to Tuesday's debate.

[Zorral]

Really, this latest mess of Giuliani's may well be the only thing that can both amuse and satisfy me, out of this utter catastrophic clown show that is called our US system.

https://www.businessinsider.com/giuliani-ukraine-associates-indicted-fraud-guarantee-2019-10

I mean, really? taking enormous amounts of swag from a firm dealing with fraud,  named"Fraud Guarantee?" 

Hanging out with a criminal who is extorting funds for bedbug, who owns a club in Odessa, on the Black Sea, known as a hang-out for Russian gangsters of every stripe including political, "Mafia Rave?"

https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-rudy-giuliani-friends-in-ukraine

And bragging about his Russian and Ukraine cronies? Only Rudy could be that egotistically oblivious -- except for his White House master bedbug, of course.

And then get thrown under the bus by his master -- and be surprised, while divorced third wife, that he went public with after announcing at a press conference he was in love with her and divorcing second wife -- which was the first second wife heard about it ... Only Rudy, Rudy, Rudy, prize NYC idiot.

 

 

[Maithanet]

I feel like the writing has been on the wall for Guiliani a couple of times before, but this is really getting to be too much.  I can't imagine he'll remain in any capacity through the end of the year.  Hell, he might be in prison by then.  Then he'll really have to hope that Trump's loyalty does indeed go both ways. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I must bow down to the singular wit and erudition that is represented in this argument. The grasp of facts and complex concepts here is outstanding. Bravo.

I'm just responding in kind. You've presented nothing but conjecture about why Harris isn't taking hold in the polls. Everything except she's not a great candidate.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

23 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Normally, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but with the outbreak of hostilities in the Middle East I think he still has a shot if the situation deteriorates. He has the most foreign policy chops of anyone running and foreign policy has been all but ignored in the debates up to now. I doubt that trend continues leading up to Tuesday's debate.

Two things. First, Biden voted for the Iraq war, and his justifications for it have been hollow. Second, in the Age of Ignorance, one in which we’re rejecting expertise, having little to no experience can actually be better than having a long career. See Hillary v. Donnie Dips**t. Biden’s experience is not going to help him all that much.

[Maithanet]

I'm pretty skeptical that the Democratic primary is going to come down to foreign policy.  But if it did, I think Buttigeig comes across much stronger than Biden in a debate, and he isn't saddled with the Iraq vote. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I was listening to Richard Wolff recently, and he shared data how the average CEO in the U.S. makes about 300 to 1 when comparing weekly earnings with the average American worker. About 40 years ago, that ration was 40 to 1. Couple this with inflation far outweighing wage increases, the issue of capital in this country has become disastrous for the majority of working Americans. 

I suppose that's why Warren and Sanders have risen in popularity--because they actually care about this. I don't believe a single other candidate truly cares about this the way these two do. Be it Biden, Harris, Buttigeg, or anyone else. It is a crisis that has to be dealt with. When Biden or Harris release plans to help working class--their plans are so weighed down by specific stipulations that they will end up helping a less than significant portion of the people in this country. 

Authenticity or whatever doesn't matter to me. Harris, Biden and the rest wear their views on their sleeve. This is not the issue they care about. Sanders and Warren are transparent as well--they see the widening income gap as dangerous, problematic, and hurtful, and they want to do something about it. Biden and the others might say, "Yeah it's bad," but they don't get out of generalities. Same with Clinton. I don't care if they seemed opportunistic or whatever--their actions are all I need to see and evaluate. They believe in the status quo, and the status quo has been hurting workers since the Reagan era.

Edit: I can't fathom (tho I know I'm probably wrong) that foreign policy matters a bit to a huge number of voters--except that two significant methods of helping the American worker (heavily taxing the mega-rich and reducing the defense budget), one of those ways impacts foreign policy.

[Guest]

@Maithanet & @Tywin et al.

All good points, and none of which I particularly disagree with. However, when discussing Biden's viability as a candidate going forward, I think his only real path forward is running on his foreign policy bona fides, and even then I think he really only gains traction if the situation deteriorates. 

But, if the current hostilities devolve into a broader, regional struggle, I think voters will suddenly realize the importance of expertise. Whether that's enough to push him over the finish line is debatable.

[Kalbear]

Just a note @Simon Steele - your hypothesis about why Warren and sanders are doing well is disputed by the base notion that Sanders has been largely losing supporters and has at best stayed static.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

23 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

@Maithanet & @Tywin et al.

All good points, and none of which I particularly disagree with. However, when discussing Biden's viability as a candidate going forward, I think his only real path forward is running on his foreign policy bona fides, and even then I think he really only gains traction if the situation deteriorates. 

But, if the current hostilities devolve into a broader, regional struggle, I think voters will suddenly realize the importance of expertise. Whether that's enough to push him over the finish line is debatable.

Thing is, even if foreign policy does become a bigger issue, it’s still going to fall behind things like the economy, healthcare, the environment, financial inequality and probably even unaffordable housing and rent. I just can’t see it moving the needle much absent some kind of horrific, historical terrorist attack and/or a complete breakdown in the Middle East.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Just a note @Simon Steele - your hypothesis about why Warren and sanders are doing well is disputed by the base notion that Sanders has been largely losing supporters and has at best stayed static.

I understand that. I see Sanders as a no shot type of candidate but consider what he's done to the party and how "laughable" he was when he announced in 2016 (I still remember Jon Stewart's laughing at it, and I did too). Sanders is too old and his health is in question, and Warren has taken those voters that likely would have pushed him out front. I see your point in terms of actually obtaining the nom. His influence has been undeniable tho. I think AOC, for example, is.more likely someone who will capitalize on his movement.

 

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Regarding Simons point, Warren's strong credentials on consumer advocacy is what put her on my radar from the beginning. 

She is the closest thing to a Ralph Nader I see running and that's the type of leadership I want to support for protecting pensions,  Soc. Sec., and I trust Warren not to turn a blind eye from polluters.  So she's got my vote as of today.

Bernie and Biden need to just retire, they are well past their prime fitness imo.

Also foreign policy will have absolutely no influence over my vote. I care primarily about pension and consumer protection, Soc. Sec. and a strong EPA.

[JGP]

Seeing reports that Turkey might've shelled a group of US Special Forces by accident [low whistle]