Apple's TV show based on Asimov's FOUNDATION, starring Jared Harris

[SpaceChampion]

 

[fionwe1987]

Binged the entire show this weekend. I've read the books, but wasn't a fan of them much, so I was sincerely hoping the show would depart from the books, and they seem to have delivered.

That said, they didn't do it well . They're trying to complicate Seldon and the Foundation right from the beginning, but while the story works as a way to bring down the Cleonic dynasty, what is not clear at all is why a Foundation is the best way to go.

I love what the show did with the Clone Cleons, and Demerzel. Really well written (especially towards the end of Season 1 and all of S2) well acted, and it makes perfect sense to me that any hereditary form of government that survives to a technological future like here would use cloning to boost the constancy and certainty empires (try to) offer by having the same dudes rule over and over. 

This would have been a fabulous show if it focussed on the Empire, and how a group of scientifically minded and more socially liberal people banded together and got allies to end the Empire and the clone dynasty that is bolstered up by a sentient robot that has been forced into being a forever empress. They managed to make each older Cleon both sympathetic and loathsome, and showing the Cleons across the centuries show the limitations and biases of the OG they're doomed to repeat makes for an excellent case to take them down, while making it believable they have a large, powerful empire. 

The Foundation parts of the show, on the other hand, just don't work as well, and only improve in season 2 after any attempts at sticking to the books fail. If only they'd kept that in mind right from the start, this would have been a much better show.

The visuals are something else, though. Really put so many other shows to shame. If this is doable on a non-insane budget, it gives me hope for what's to come in the rest of this decade. 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by fionwe1987

[SpaceChampion]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I love what the show did with the Clone Cleons, and Demerzel. Really well written (especially towards the end of Season 1 and all of S2) well acted, and it makes perfect sense to me that any hereditary form of government that survives to a technological future like here would use cloning to boost the constancy and certainty empires (try to) offer by having the same dudes rule over and over.

 

It also ought to make the psychohistory equations more acccurate, sort of like making Cleon the anti-Mule.

[fionwe1987]

30 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

It also ought to make the psychohistory equations more acccurate, sort of like making Cleon the anti-Mule.

Yes, but it also makes Psychohistory/a Foundation a bit ridiculous as a first proposed solution by Seldon. You can make a reasonable claim that the coming darkness is so bad in large part due to the overlong success of the Cleons. In the show, though, the Foundation is perfectly happy propping them up for quite a while.

That makes the entire story murky. Why is Rebellion against the Cleons not the path chosen? Certainly, if you can predict the coming of religious strife, and the dissatisfaction of the Outer Rim, and likely the rise of nations like the Dominion as the Empire weakens... why isn't the plan to create allies of them all and knock the Empire down?

Whatever argument Seldon could come against this would boil down to "revolution is chaotic, let's do this technocratic solution instead that will take at least a 1000 years, with a lot of chaos baked in anyway. Oh, and by the way, the reason we believe this is a mathematical proof that only two living humans claim to understand, and they suck so bad as mathematicians they don't even try to explain it". 

That's the core flaw of the books themselves, of course. Predicting the future direction of society based on historical data doesn't work well because history itself is a selective edit of the past. Whose stories get recorded, what data gets collected... all this is biased by the structure of whatever culture prevails. So no system based solely on this data, however good the math underlying it, will be able to predict future evolution with any resolution. And if figuring out individual actions would be hard (which the books repeatedly state), figuring out when something will happen will be even harder, because that's when you're facing limits like "how far has information traveled", and those are most susceptible to large changes due to small individual actions. 

Even if you buy that all this is theoretically possible, it's hard to imagine other scientists will accept a prediction of Seldon's nature, let alone act on it, if the way to arrive at the prediction is through "secret sauce". We're living through a similar attempt right now with LLMs, and the same skepticism due with them is due a millionfold to any model that claims to predict the future robustly enough to definitively guide our actions in the present. 

The best Asimov adaptation would be one where the Plan is revealed to be mostly self-reinforcing BS, but it is pretty clear the show isn't daring to go there.  

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Zorral]

Abigail Nussbaum thinks about Apple's Foundation, Asimov, and empires.

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2023/10/isaac-asimov-thinks-about-the-roman-empire

 

[fionwe1987]

41 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Abigail Nussbaum thinks about Apple's Foundation, Asimov, and empires.

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2023/10/isaac-asimov-thinks-about-the-roman-empire

 

I enjoyed this. 

Quote

As much as it views itself as a force of enlightenment, it’s notable that the Foundation ultimately treats the people it “saves” no differently than the empire did, as subjects to be manipulated, cajoled, and in some cases controlled in order to return them to a specific, predetermined path towards progress.

Exactly. Given how bad the Empire is, setting up a Foundation that will employ the Empire's tricks to entrench itself sure makes it a weird "savior". 

Which is, hilariously, very like how American imperialism views itself vs how the post colonial world does, but again, the show doesn't seem aware of this.

[karaddin]

I'm not sure that's true - the entire idea of the 2nd Foundation is that the 1st is set up to 'go bad' and will need the 2nd to deal with it. Obviously that still involves Hari himself engaging in what you're talking about on the meta level, but Gaal was pretty critical of him at the start of this season as well so I think its aware of it - whether it successfully deals with that is a different issue to being aware of it and trying.

[fionwe1987]

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I'm not sure that's true - the entire idea of the 2nd Foundation is that the 1st is set up to 'go bad' and will need the 2nd to deal with it. Obviously that still involves Hari himself engaging in what you're talking about on the meta level, but Gaal was pretty critical of him at the start of this season as well so I think its aware of it - whether it successfully deals with that is a different issue to being aware of it and trying.

But even Gaal's criticism is mostly personal, not a systemic critique of his Plan. She doesn't object to the Foundation itself, or ask why it has a right to steer the galaxy any more than the Empire did.

And if you see that your Foundation will go bad, and start it anyway, what guarantee do you have that your second Foundation will also not go bad? Do you build a third, even more secret Foundation?

They're critical of Hari himself, but the plot is all about how good and deep the Plan is, and how it keeps saving the day.

Edited October 3, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

That's the core flaw of the books themselves, of course. Predicting the future direction of society based on historical data doesn't work well because history itself is a selective edit of the past. Whose stories get recorded, what data gets collected... all this is biased by the structure of whatever culture prevails. So no system based solely on this data, however good the math underlying it, will be able to predict future evolution with any resolution. And if figuring out individual actions would be hard (which the books repeatedly state), figuring out when something will happen will be even harder, because that's when you're facing limits like "how far has information traveled", and those are most susceptible to large changes due to small individual actions. 

Karl Popper hated this idea and wrote a whole book on why it doesn’t work… he called it “Historicism” the book is The Poverty of Historicism.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Karl Popper hated this idea and wrote a whole book on why it doesn’t work… he called it “Historicism” the book is The Poverty of Historicism.

Yep! And what he said still holds. You can do piecemeal social engineering, but if you're trying to social engineer a galaxy ( to be clear, Popper wasn't writing about predictions at Galactic scale, but all that he says only holds more true when trying to understand something like predicting the societal future of an entire galaxy), you're personally the wild card that makes the future less predictable. The greatest threats to Hari Seldon's plan are Hari Seldon and his interactions.

The way to reduce that effect is by open sourcing the plan and having many more people feed into it, people who are from all over the Galaxy and have their unique biases and desires. Take a broad enough subset, and yes, you can get closer to doing that which keeps the future stable.

This is also called representative democracy. As a 13 year old reading Foundation, I never understood why this wasn't simply the proposed solution. And by failing to engage with this, the show also goes the Asimov route of "great men with secret plans saving the day". Another thing Popper railed at. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by fionwe1987

[karaddin]

The great man theory of history isn't something I subscribe to, but it can make for very entertaining fiction. Code Geass really springs to mind for that one.

[Gigei]

I waited until the entire season was over before binging it in two days. Season 2 was a big improvement over the first. I enjoyed almost all of it, though the Foundation still lags compared to the Empire parts.

Random thoughts:

• Holy cow, Lee Pace is apparently 6'5". I googled it because he towers over so many other characters.
• A lot of the Bel Riose parts did not work for me. Why would he go down to the planet himself? Why wouldn't they just send a small ship to rescue the husband before destroying the planet?
• The Spacers look amazing.
• I guessed immediately that Demerzel was behind the assassination attempt. Reason: if Day could see the assassins before they arrived, Demy could've senses them even earlier, yet she allowed them to cut her head in half.
• Laughed so much when someone called Day's court costume a "dress" because I've always thought it was terrible. It's only because it's Lee pace wearing it that it looks okay.
• Loved the sliced robot flashback.
• Me in Season 1: I hope Salvor Hardin dies!
• Me in Season 2: Oh no, don't die for real, Salvor!
• Absolutely hated the mentalics arc because there was no point to it. Everything was a lie and an illusion. Just waited for it to be over.
• Gaal is perpetually in distress, hope Season 3 changes that.
• Yanna had so much chemistry with Seldon in the small amount of time she had screentime.
• Whoever that actress who played the evil academic who killed Yanna, she's damned good. Hated her so much.
• Wish we saw a little of Trantor that isn't just the palace.
• Great ending, wouldn't change a thing.

[fionwe1987]

11 hours ago, Gigei said:

• Whoever that actress who played the evil academic who killed Yanna, she's damned good. Hated her so much.

Ugh yes. She reeked of "Admin toady". 

[Lady Anna]

I started watching this show this week. I'm 4 episodes in. I really like it so far! I haven't read the books nor did I have any knowledge of their plot or characters whatsoever and I'm not having any problems following or understanding the story.

I read the first page of comments and I was surprised to find out people thought the first 2 episodes were slow paced. I thought they were incredibly rushed and crammed with way too much! Episode 3 slowed down the pace and I appreciated that. It was much better that way.

I was also surprised to discover that the 3 Emperors scheme is not in the books (though the Emperor is still cloned, right?). I find it a brilliant concept and this whole genetic dynasty thing is fascinating and definitely a very interesting concept for a writer to play with. Concepts such as cloning and sentient droids (Demerzel) have a lot of room for thematic analysis and being connected to other concepts such as ruling, power and ancestry just makes it that more interesting to me.

I'm really enjoying the mysterious storyline on Terminus as well. I love Salvor and I don't mind that she's "special". I can't say it's a Mary Sue situation when I'm only 4 episodes in and have no resolution or full context but regardless it doesn't bother me at all. I know, because I accidentally spoiled myself, that she's connected to Gaal and I'm looking forward to the development of that.

I also came here to ask the book readers if the show - which is clearly not a 1-1 adaptation - is somewhat faithful in lifting elements from the books. I ask this because I find there's some similarities with Star Wars and since the books predate that movie/universe then either SW was inspired by it or this show came up with those elements while inspired by SW. Either way, it's fun.

Now I'll be very carefully exiting this thread

Edited October 29, 2023 by Lady Anna

[Ran]

On 10/4/2023 at 5:22 AM, Gigei said:

Holy cow, Lee Pace is apparently 6'5". I googled it because he towers over so many other characters.

He was in the running for Renly, a little bird told me many years ago, and he would have been so good as the book version of the character.

I suspect casting Addy as Robert made them realize that they couldn't really cast someone who towered over him and they went a different way.

51 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

(though the Emperor is still cloned, right?)

Nope, no cloning. But yeah, the genetic dynasty idea and how it plays out is easily the best part of the show for most people.

Lifting elements and faithfulness... I don't know, very broadly I guess it manages to get some nuts-and-bolts details (character named X does thing, etc.) right, but thematically it's mostly really different.

You're still on the first season? It's funny you mention Star Wars, since the second season wildly repurposes a character from the books and turns him into something of the show's Han Solo.

[Lady Anna]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Nope, no cloning. But yeah, the genetic dynasty idea and how it plays out is easily the best part of the show for most people.

Lifting elements and faithfulness... I don't know, very broadly I guess it manages to get some nuts-and-bolts details (character named X does thing, etc.) right, but thematically it's mostly really different.

You're still on the first season? It's funny you mention Star Wars, since the second season wildly repurposes a character from the books and turns him into something of the show's Han Solo.

Oh wow, then the show really came up with something great regarding the genetic dynasty imo.

Yes, I'm still midway through the 1st season. That's funny about Han Solo 

[Lady Anna]

So I finished season 1 and I absolutely loved it. I think this show appeals to what I like. The Emperors's storyline is without a doubt the best thing about the show, though, even acting-wise. If it was only about that, maybe with Seldon's machinations against the Empire as a parallel plot, it'd be even better. Because the other 2 storylines weren't very well balanced, and the one with Salvor and the Anacreons felt over-extended.

I didn't think this show was confusing at all. I'm confused about people's confusion. Of course, if you look deeper you'll probably find inconsistencies especially with regards to Seldon's incredibly accurate predictions, but whatever. I don't nitpick to that extent especially when it's often something that comes with the territory in this kind of stories.

I'm glad I didn't read anything about this show before or during it because I got to watch it with no expectations and that may have helped. I read the pages on this thread relating to season 1 and the overall negative opinions on the show kinda surprised me but I'm glad I hadn't read them before finishing the season. I haven't read the books either so I don't have that attachment to compare this to.

Looking forward to watching season 2 which I believe ended recently? Also one final word about the actors who played Demerzel (intriguing character to say the least), Halima and the 19 year old Brother Dawn (who perfectly captured Lee Pace's whole energy). They were excellent. I was sad to see Halima go. Brother Dawn I think I will see again.

 

[Lady Anna]

I'm 4 episodes into season 2 and I'm loving it. I really like the concepts and themes they're working with so even when the execution falters I still enjoy it. Episode 1 of this season was a bad omen because it felt like a parody version of the show but ever since episode 2 it's just gotten better. All the new actors are excellent and the scale feels larger. They definitely had a bigger budget this time.

@Ran Hober Mallow is the Han Solo-type character you mentioned, right? I see it He was even on a planet called Korell !!

[SpaceChampion]

Renewed for a 3rd season: https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/foundation-renewed-season-3-apple-1235821919/

[Ran]

51 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Renewed for a 3rd season: https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/foundation-renewed-season-3-apple-1235821919/

Fascinating that it's done well enough for another go, but fair enough. I suspect it'll be the last season with Lee Pace... and maybe the last season overall, who can say? But it'll be nice to see that production design and VFX again.