Jump to content
Tywin Manderly

UK Politics: Who Pays the Andyman?

Recommended Posts

I'm surprised to learn that the Tories won a majority in Parliament.  From discussions hear and what I say on my social media feeds it seemed that Brexit was disfavored and that the Tories were on the outs.  Was this more a rejection of Corbyn than a reaffirmation of the earlier Brexit vote? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

Corbyn is absolutely radioactive to this election, he should have taken a clear stance on Brexit and I think that would have evened out the Tory majority a bit but he was never going to win if I'm being honest with myself, people HATE him. 

Why?  Any particular reason?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I'm surprised to learn that the Tories won a majority in Parliament.  From discussions hear and what I say on my social media feeds it seemed that Brexit was disfavored and that the Tories were on the outs.  Was this more a rejection of Corbyn than a reaffirmation of the earlier Brexit vote? 

I (personally) think it's something bigger. This is a realigning election, after the manner of the USA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I'm surprised to learn that the Tories won a majority in Parliament.  From discussions hear and what I say on my social media feeds it seemed that Brexit was disfavored and that the Tories were on the outs.  Was this more a rejection of Corbyn than a reaffirmation of the earlier Brexit vote? 

That just seems to be a bubble. Just like the anti-Trump bubble most of us are in I suspect. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Darryk said:

Does the rise of the right around the world predict a long-term trend, or is it just because people on the right (mostly older folks) sense that all the things they've held onto their whole lives (religion, nationalism, patriarchy, white domination etc.) are fading away, and this is just a way for them to express their bitterness about it before they all die off and take their archaic views with them?

 

2 hours ago, Liffguard said:

My fervant hope is that we're looking at an extinction burst, exactly as you say. But I'm not sure there's any evidence to back it up. And even if there is, we can't afford to wait. Economic policies and authoritarianism can ultimately be changed even if they're established for a long time, but climate change is a ticking clock, and every year without radical action will have long-reaching and irreversible consequences.

The big problem is that the hard right policies tend to damage society in a way that makes people uncertain and afraid, and people that are uncertain and afraid are more likely to accept fascism so further right we go. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. And the compromised media help ensure enough people don't place the blame where it belongs and snap out of it.

You see that exact thing going on with Brexit - all the turmoil and upheaval makes people afraid and tired of it, so they support the architects of the situation just to stop hearing about it. As though that works.

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Is one type of racism better than another? 

Even if it were, it's not like right wing racists aren't anti semitic. Boris wrote a book with Jews controlling money/the media (I'm forgetting which). I'm much more worried about the antisemitism that can come from them.

There's also the fact that persecuting Roma is in the official party platform that just won a majority. 

Edited by karaddin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Werthead said:

The Conservatives will be brainstorming this.

Not really. The variables are all pretty well known by this point. As I noted above, there's no percentage whatsoever in the Tories even appearing to think about talking to the SNP about giving permission for a referendum before the Scottish Parliament elections in 2021. They intend to stand for that election on a platform of 'no IndyRef 2', whatever happens. It's been their whole platform in Scotland for years: they don't talk about the EU, they don't talk about the economy, they just wrap themselves in the Union flag and insist they are the only party who can stop independence. And it's worked OK for them so far - at least, it's pushed them into and kept them in second place, even if it's a fairly distant second, while Scottish Labour become increasingly irrelevant.

After that election, well... what's the percentage for Johnson in allowing the SNP to have their way? What does he gain, what does he risk by not doing so? Does it really hurt him if Scotland continues electing SNP MPs instead of Labour ones? Allowing a second Scottish independence referendum will upset some of his voters in England, even if he's willing to write off the ones in Scotland, and there's no point in paying that price without some sort of gain. I can't see what that is. The Tories are already saying the issue has been put to bed for a generation. There's a grand total of one Scottish Labour MP, and I don't know that they care that much about lowering the bar from 326 for a majority to 296. 

The only real issue is political pressure, assuming the SNP do really well in 2021. At that point, it would be hard to justify a refusal. But Johnson still might do so. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I'm surprised to learn that the Tories won a majority in Parliament.  From discussions hear and what I say on my social media feeds it seemed that Brexit was disfavored and that the Tories were on the outs.  Was this more a rejection of Corbyn than a reaffirmation of the earlier Brexit vote? 

Social media skews very much to the left, and internationalist, compared to the electorate at large.

It was very clear from both opinion polling and vox pops that the Conservatives would win this election, although I think most people expected Labour to do a bit better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it's just me being sick in bed speaking, getting disillusioned by all the stuff in the news. And I also know that there are enough sensible British people my thoughts go out to. But at this point I have reached the conclusion that I just want to see the UK burn for its stupidity. The oncoming decades need to hurt. I want the UK to become an insignificant husk of a country stricken by poverty and laughed at by the whole world.

I'm just so sick of the world now... we truly are living in Idiocracy...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, karaddin said:

You see that exact thing going on with Brexit - all the turmoil and upheaval makes people afraid and tired of it, so they support the architects of the situation just to stop hearing about it. As though that works

So basically if one pours more gasoline on the fire, eventually, the fire We will go out. Sadly this logic will probably prevail. 

13 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Even if it were, it's not like right wing racists aren't anti semitic. Boris wrote a book with Jews controlling money/the media (I'm forgetting which). I'm much more worried about the antisemitism that can come from them.

 

Yeah, whatever people think Corbyn has done to show racism-Johnson has done far worse. It's not even a competition. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Toth - Are you British? If you are, then ignore the following. It's pretty uncool to come into the thread for another country full of people pretty shattered about an election result and essentially kick them for the results of other people's voting. I understand the impulse and frustration, but there's a time and place. And this time and place is to have sympathy. And those that are going to bear the brunt of this are unlikely to be the ones that voted Tory - the minorities that will probably see a spike in hate crimes again, the poor relying on services that will be cut to eat, the disabled and sick that will be left to suffer and die.

These are always the first to get hurt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

It's an election where Labour win Putney and Canterbury, while losing Bolsover. I am sure the usual suspects will vilify Corbyn, but honestly, it's a Realignment - Labour are gaining among the middle-class, and losing among the working-class. 

Of course you took on the task of defending the indefensible and absolve Corbyn from any responsibility whatsoever.

What were the approval ratings for Johnson and Corbyn?

Johnson -40 and Corbyn -70, and that had nothing to with Jeremy?

People warned Labour (Corbyn) it was a horrible idea to head for an election with Brexit unresolved. And that the combination of Corbyn and Brexit would be devastating. As in people loathe Johnson, but they hate Corbyn more. There's a shift towards remain, but people still hate Corbyn more. However he happily trotted on, and loudly and proudly said, that he wants a GE over a second referendum, He got exactly what he asked for. Of course, the blame does not solely lie with Corbyn himself, there's also this collection of political midgets like Milne he surrounded himself with, that gave him such sound advice.

No, don't commit to a concrete position, or you'll lose the Leave vote in the north, they will totally vote for a third choice Brexit party, that is promising Schrödinger's Brexit policy, with another party conference to decide what's the actual position after we won the GE. Strategic ambivalence ftw.

Principled politician my...

It worked miracles. Just not for Labour. And yeah, those Leaver's told Corbyn to go and whistle anyway. Which was utterly predictable, and had been predicted here over the past three years (check the older Brexit/Brit politics threads if your memory needs some refreshing).

But it's probably all Tom Watson's fault for trying to get a coherent policy position out of Labour. Or for him resigning after those momentum halfwits failed to oust him as deputy leader. Alan Johnson has the right of it with regards to momentum.

Corbyn and his followers have lead Labour to one of the worst election results in Labour's history, plain and simple. A lot of the factors influencing it were direct results of strategical decissions by the party. Election over Referendum, insisting if there was a goverment of national unity it should be lead by Corbyn, the most unifying figure in British politics. Now they don't get to whine about them getting screwed over by Brexit, as in they did their very best that Brexit remained part of the equation for this election.

LibDems, yeah, could also offer some choice words for them. Like that nonsense promises to stop Brexit and to not work with Corbyn. They were only ever able to keep one of those realistically. I can see why they promised it, to keep Tory remainers onboard for whom Corbyn was simply too toxic. At least they tried to work with other opposition parties in an attempt to deny Johnson a working majority. In the end it failed, however that Labour was not part of that orchestrated effort was at least imo also in no small part down to Labour, who did not miss a single opportunity to bring up the LibDems coalition with the Tories and to call them another Tory party. Oh yeah, and then there was Labour's absense of a clear Brexit position again.

FWIW Soubry is right, this was avoidable, but the remain parties failed to live up to the task. Of course that mess they made of their many named party deserves an honourable mention.

 

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Some net positives:

The DUP losing seats (bye bye Dodds) to Republican parties - could be the first signs of Irish Unification happening rather sooner than later. The SNP dominating Scotland electorally. Best of luck to you guys getting IndyRef2 going, and hopefully getting it right this time. On that note, my apologies to Nessie, you deserved a better death than seeing Ruthie skin dipping.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A further point on IndyRef 2: if I were the cynical sort, and Johnson and his team are undoubtedly cynical sorts, I would look at the internal politics of the SNP and consider what would happen if I were to refuse permission for a legal second referendum. At that point, huge pressure builds internally in the SNP to hold a referendum anyway. But that isn't cost-free. It will be risky for the SNP. Look at Catalonia. It doesn't have to go that far, of course, but still, senior SNP figures will be wary, leading to internal strife.

On NI, yeah, that's somewhat under the radar so far but with the Johnson deal going ahead, NI will effectively now be closer than ever to the RoI and farther from the mainland. Couple that with the DUP losing votes and seats and you do get a recipe for a possible Irish unification referendum that, unlike IndyRef2, the UK government may actually be legally bound to grant by an international treaty. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

It's pretty uncool to come into the thread for another country full of people pretty shattered about an election result and essentially kick them for the results of other people's voting.

Sorry if it came across like that. I guess I should have emphasized more that my thoughts go out to all those who don't deserve to be ruled by moronic kleptomaniacs scavenging the country like vultures. But that after years of Brexit chaos unveiling the ineptitude of these vultures there is still a dicisive number of people electing them is a disgrace not just for the British, but mankind itself. The bill will come either way, I'm just hoping it will be the right people paying for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I'm surprised to learn that the Tories won a majority in Parliament.  From discussions hear and what I say on my social media feeds it seemed that Brexit was disfavored and that the Tories were on the outs.  Was this more a rejection of Corbyn than a reaffirmation of the earlier Brexit vote? 

Scot, in hindsight the result was obvious. Citizens of the UK are tired of Brexit, and BJ offered them an end date, albeit one that was a form of self-mutilation. Corbyn, OTOH, offered them something that could takes years, maybe even a decade, to resolve. The people were bowed, bent and broken and took the easy short term path.

One of OJ’s jurors put it plain and simple. When asked why she voted so quickly to acquit him, she responded by asking how many days she had been sequestered from her children. She was finished and took the easy path. The Brits did the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Toth said:

Sorry if it came across like that. I guess I should have emphasized more that my thoughts go out to all those who don't deserve to be ruled by moronic kleptomaniacs scavenging the country like vultures. But that after years of Brexit chaos unveiling the ineptitude of these vultures there is still a dicisive number of people electing them is a disgrace not just for the British, but mankind itself. The bill will come either way, I'm just hoping it will be the right people paying for it.

I get it, i feel the frustration as well - I'm just trying to be mindful I'm not British either and attempting to stick to posts that won't push on raw nerves. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Corbyn and his followers have lead Labour to one of the worst election results in Labour's history, plain and simple. 

I thought this might have been a bit of an exaggeration given I knew Milibands performance had also been terrible so I checked the seat counts and... Yeah that really is that bad.

The absurdity of the situation is really something. Becomes PM as his parties government is falling apart, loses 6(?) votes in a row on the floor of Parliament, kicks out a bunch of his own MPs losing his functional majority, calls an election and.... Gets emphatically rewarded for it. Failing ever upward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Toth - Are you British? If you are, then ignore the following. It's pretty uncool to come into the thread for another country full of people pretty shattered about an election result and essentially kick them for the results of other people's voting. I understand the impulse and frustration, but there's a time and place. And this time and place is to have sympathy. And those that are going to bear the brunt of this are unlikely to be the ones that voted Tory - the minorities that will probably see a spike in hate crimes again, the poor relying on services that will be cut to eat, the disabled and sick that will be left to suffer and die.

These are always the first to get hurt.

Um, us Americans took a lot of L’s here from foreigners when we elected Trump. And we deserved it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Toth - Are you British? If you are, then ignore the following. It's pretty uncool to come into the thread for another country full of people pretty shattered about an election result and essentially kick them for the results of other people's voting. I understand the impulse and frustration, but there's a time and place. And this time and place is to have sympathy. And those that are going to bear the brunt of this are unlikely to be the ones that voted Tory - the minorities that will probably see a spike in hate crimes again, the poor relying on services that will be cut to eat, the disabled and sick that will be left to suffer and die.

These are always the first to get hurt.

Thank you, that was much more measured than i could have managed to react with. Thanks too for the compassion you are showing to those of us who are feeling this particularly badly

15 minutes ago, Toth said:

Sorry if it came across like that. I guess I should have emphasized more that my thoughts go out to all those who don't deserve to be ruled by moronic kleptomaniacs scavenging the country like vultures. But that after years of Brexit chaos unveiling the ineptitude of these vultures there is still a dicisive number of people electing them is a disgrace not just for the British, but mankind itself. The bill will come either way, I'm just hoping it will be the right people paying for it.

The right people will not pay for it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Scot, in hindsight the result was obvious. Citizens of the UK are tired of Brexit, and BJ offered them an end date, albeit one that was a form of self-mutilation. Corbyn, OTOH, offered them something that could takes years, maybe even a decade, to resolve.

No, even on a pessimistic estimate Corbyn's policy wouldn't have taken years to resolve. My impression is that the issue was more that many voters didn't trust Corbyn to deal with Brexit, or anything else for that matter, not that they thought his policy for renegotiation would take too long. 

In truth, I think we have to say that Labour lost this election more than the Tories won it. Labour managed to lose significant percentages of both Leave and Remain voters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×