Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Angel Eyes

How much did Ned care about Lyanna?

Recommended Posts

42 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." (Eddard IX, AGoT 35)

Whatever love or passion Robert had for her, it was not enough to stop him from fathering a daughter at Stoney Sept. The bottom line is that she was proved right in her assessment. 

Mya Stone happened before Robert's betrothal to Lyanna, as stated in the bold citation.
So Lyanna questions Robert's character of "keep[ing] to one bed" and the fact that he has a daughter.
Well its hypocritical if Lyanna went to Rhaegar, since Rhaegar would of made a second bed for Lyanna and has a daughter in Rhaenys.

 

45 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And as far as what happened with Rhaegar goes, we simply don't know anything yet. So I will withhold my judgement of them, and that's that.

We know. Maybe Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Maybe she ran away. But I think the majority of readers think the latter.

 

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Perhaps in an alternative timeline, Robert are Rhaegar fight together as cousins to dethrone Aerys, perhaps Robert fights for the King, perhaps without Lyana's elopement the Martells aren't so pissed and give Rhaegar their full support, perhaps Aerys make Hoster his Hand, perhaps...

Nice. So many possibilities! R+L = spark of Robert's Rebellion. Despite what noises are in the background, R+L is without a doubt the spark

 

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

As simple as Lyanna didn't want Robert and  she might have wanted Rhaegar, if that's the case, it's obvious that nothing else would've mattered, people act and think differently when they are in love.

I know, but doesn't make it right. 

So Lyanna's message would be:
It is wrong to be hypocritical!
Unless you are in love, then being a hypocrite is okay!

I'll remember to teach my son that when he grows up lol
<3 <3 <3 Love <3 <3 <3    >    Hypocrisy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I know that he fought a war to rescue her, but still, he helped broker a betrothal between her and Robert; forget Southron Ambitions. Between Lyanna’s willful temperament and Robert’s proclivity for women, he really risked her becoming something like Cersei, twisted and evil.

Rickon brokered the marriage to Bobby B. I doubt Ned spoke against it, but he could not have stopped it if he wanted.

I imagine Ned cared for his little sister as much as any older brother cares for theirs. Think Robb Stark and Arya; they are siblings, but it is unclear if they had a tighter bond than, say, Jon and Arya, or Brendon and Lyanna.

I also doubt Lyanna would have become like Cersei. It's hard to be sure because we don't have a lot to go on with Lyanna, but I doubt she was bent on acquiring power and status all her life like Cersei was, nor was she resentful for being a woman in a man's world. She probably would have raised a few southron eyebrows with her riding and other manly pursuits, but Bobby probably would have admired her for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Nice. So many possibilities! R+L = spark of Robert's Rebellion. Despite what noises are in the background, R+L is without a doubt the spark

Yes, a spark that could have been put out easily by a different king. But instead of putting it out, Aerys dumped wildfire on it and fanned the flames. 

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Rickon brokered the marriage to Bobby B. I doubt Ned spoke against it, but he could not have stopped it if he wanted.

You mean Rickard, right? Regardless, I thought Robert had asked for Lyanna’s hand... do you recall where it’s said it was Rickard who arranged the marriage? I know I can’t remember, and have no idea off the top of my head why I was thinking it had been Robert. :dunno:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Mya Stone happened before Robert's betrothal to Lyanna, as stated in the bold citation.

And Bella happened after.

Remember her? The girl who wanted to ring Gendry's bells, and whose mother was allegedly Robert's favorite prostitute at the Peach while he was hiding there right before the Battle of the Bells?

16 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Well its hypocritical if Lyanna went to Rhaegar,

Again, we don't know what happened. Robert says she was kidnapped. Dany says Lyanna was carried off at sword point. Whatever happened, there seems to at least be some consensus that she might have been threatened.

Viserys says Rhaegar wouldn't have needed Lyanna if Dany had been born much earlier. Barristan says Rhaegar loved Lyanna, Ned doesn't have a single bad thought about Rhaegar, Cersei and Kevan think that if Rhaegar had married Cersei he wouldn't have looked at Lyanna twice. And the Martells didn't even mention Rhaegar's name at all, but they are still Targaryen loyalists after all these years and Sarella says the dragon has three heads, a line that's uttered for the first time by Rhaegar in the HotU. She could have gotten this only from Oberyn or Doran.

Quote

 

since Rhaegar would of made a second bed for Lyanna and has a daughter in Rhaenys.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you serious? Had Aerys been a sane and reasonable ruler, things would have happened very differently. Whatever Rhaegar and Lyanna did, whatever mistakes they made, it’s fuck all to do w/ what Aerys did. 

 

Aerys did what he did but it was idiocy of Lyana and Rhaegar that started the war. Aerys burned people for a decade and no one really stirred over it nor were they bothered enough to start a war. And then she decides to just leave, without leaving a message, getting her brother and father killed and getting the king to demand death of her other brother and bethrothed. All the fault lays on her. If I was Ned I'd piss on her grave daily. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Ned doesn't have a single bad thought about Rhaegar

Nor does he have about Aerys.

 

52 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

but they are still Targaryen loyalists after all these years

Hardly not to, the Targs are the only ones who can help them getting their revenge, i don't see much loyalty but convenience, had they being able to achieve their revenge without Aerys offspring. What do you think they would've chosen??

 

 

@The Map Guy

Is just life, we behave differently whther someone interest us or not. It doesn't need to be right.

Edited by frenin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, a spark that could have been put out easily by a different king. But instead of putting it out, Aerys dumped wildfire on it and fanned the flames

Aerys was crazy, but Brandon didn't make the situation better. He openly threaten Rhaegar at the Red Keep, in front of many people. No one is allowed to come into someone's house uninvited and threaten the family publicly ... let alone a royal family. From a king's POV, Brandon is threatening a heir and the dynasty. That is treason. The Starks are not fully innocent here.

52 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And Bella happened after.

I know, but this was after the fact Lyanna was missing. It is not the hypothetical situation where Robert actually marries Lyanna.
And like frenin said, Robert was hurt at the brothel, with enemies closing in. It is totally understandable that Robert made the best out of it.
If I can recall correctly, Catelyn thought it was understandable for Ned to sleep with women during the war. Cat just hated that Ned brought back the bastard to Winterfell.

58 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Again, we don't know what happened.

Let's leave it at that. But a lot of book clue suggests that Lyanna went off on her own will.

59 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. 

In the scenario where Lyanna went off on her own will, its hypocritical for her to say:

I don't like Robert. He'll probably take another woman in his second bed while we are married.

I like Rhaegar, even though he is married to Elia Martell, and I would be the woman in his second bed   <3 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Aerys was crazy, but Brandon didn't make the situation better. He openly threaten Rhaegar at the Red Keep, in front of many people. No one is allowed to come into someone's house uninvited and threaten the family publicly ... let alone a royal family. From a king's POV, Brandon is threatening a heir and the dynasty. That is treason. The Starks are not fully innocent here.

Please show me where did I say the Starks or Brandon are fully innocent? 

If you read my post you will see I said Brandon acted like a moron, and that’s putting it mildly. The fact remains, though, that Aerys had Brandon and his mates imprisioned, and summoned their fathers to KL. Once the fathers arrive, there’s any number of things he could have done. But he chose to do what he did, and to add insult to injury, he orders Jon Arryn to send him the heads of his wards, who now happen to be the heads of two major houses. I wonder how someone like Baelor Breakspear or Aegon V would have handled the situation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is just life, we behave differently whther someone interest us or not. It doesn't need to be right.

I know. In life, people forget "love vs hate" and "right vs wrong" are different things.

Love something + Right thing to do = Best case scenario
Love something + Wrong thing to do = Gray area, but it is still not right
Hate something + Right thing to do = means its the right sacrifice
Hate something + Wrong thing to do = you're an idiot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Please show me where did I say the Starks or Brandon are fully innocent? 

If you read my post you will see I said Brandon acted like a moron, and that’s putting it mildly. The fact remains, though, that Aerys had Brandon and his mates imprisioned, and summoned their fathers to KL. Once the fathers arrive, there’s any number of things he could have done. But he chose to do what he did, and to add insult to injury, he orders Jon Arryn to send him the heads of his wards, who now happen to be the heads of two major houses. I wonder how someone like Baelor Breakspear or Aegon V would have handled the situation. 

I think that is just another way of saying we agree on the same thing lol
 

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I wonder how someone like Baelor Breakspear or Aegon V would have handled the situation

I don't know. Perhaps after Brandon made the death threat, send him to the wall. Keep Ned as a ward and hostage in King's Landing to prevent Southern Ambitions. Allow Rickard to keep Benjen as the only and sole heir to Winterfell. Shit, I don't even know what to do about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Any king in that situation is screwed.

I'm starting to hate the idea of Lyanna & Rhaegar even more now. Of course in my ADOS fan-fic, they accidentally created an Apocalypse lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I don't know. Perhaps after Brandon made the death threat, send him to the wall. Keep Ned as a ward and hostage in King's Landing to prevent Southern Ambitions. Allow Rickard to keep Benjen as the only and sole heir to Winterfell. Shit, I don't even know what to do about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Any king in that situation is screwed.

My point exactly: there’s a number of options available, and yet that nutjob decided to get his rocks off by literally slowly cooking the father while the son watched and strangled himself trying to get to his father, and that’s on top of everyone else he killed then, and the cherry on top, demanding the heads of Ned and Robert.

11 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I'm starting to hate the idea of Lyanna & Rhaegar even more now. Of course in my ADOS fan-fic, they accidentally created an Apocalypse lol.

Well, you’re calling it fanfic, that’s progress! Right? :lol:

:cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, you’re calling it fanfic, that’s progress! Right? :lol:

Well its not confirmed, we still have to wait for TWO more books.

Besides, after reading my ADOS fan-fic and watching HBO's fan-fic ... looking at D&D's R+L, you'll probably say "I dun want it" :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And Bella happened after

The critical part of this is what you say after this. Robert conceives Bella during the war in which he is supposedly trying to save Lyanna, not just to kill Targaryens. Bella and Gendry are evidence that no matter how much Robert says he loved Lyanna, he still couldn't stay faithful to her when she was supposedly being "raped" hundreds of times. Lyanna had Robert's character spotted right on the mark. He doesn't love Lyanna; he loves the possession - the ownership - of her. Robert is obsessed with Rhaegar's possession of what is by contract rightfully his.

To the op's question of Ned's love for his sister, I believe he deeply and truly loves her. That doesn't mean he always agrees with her. I think he knows Lyanna leaves willingly with Rhaegar. He also believes Lyanna has a duty to marry Robert as Rickard has agreed. But Ned changes during the war. He changes when Elia's children are laid before Robert and he calls them "dragonspawn." And he changes forever when he finds his sister dying and promises her things he hides from everyone.

Just how committed is Ned to marriage contracts when he finds out Joffrey's nature and tries to take both Sansa and Arya away from King's Landing? He is not committed at all. He wants to break the pact. It is the well being and happiness of his daughters that come first then. Just when did Ned come to the same realization about Lyanna? Was it when Robert's vindictive and murderous behavior is shown over the bodies of Rhaegar's dead children? Or was it when he saw the fear in his sister's eyes that only went away with his deathbed promises? Whichever it was, his love for Lyanna won over his duty to Robert.

Edited by SFDanny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28. Dezember 2019 at 6:30 AM, frenin said:

Enough to put up with the amount of shit she created and  still loving her when she's, most likely, directly responsible for Brandon s and  Rickard s deaths.

Well that's an assumption! We don't know at all what truly happened to her

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28. Dezember 2019 at 6:05 AM, Yaya said:

i must have missed this part in my re-read - i really don't remember reading this ... please - do you have a quote to support this ?

 

 

The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned’s head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face. “Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

A Game of Thrones, Eddard, 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I also doubt Lyanna would have become like Cersei. It's hard to be sure because we don't have a lot to go on with Lyanna, but I doubt she was bent on acquiring power and status all her life like Cersei was, nor was she resentful for being a woman in a man's world. She probably would have raised a few southron eyebrows with her riding and other manly pursuits, but Bobby probably would have admired her for that.

I also doubt that Lyanna would have become like Cersei, but Robert raped Cersei regularly, so that for sure would have traumatized and changed Lyanna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That's not what I said. I said that she seemed to have a better grasp of Robert's character than Ned did. Ned thought marriage/love would change Robert, Lyanna didn't think so. 

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." (Eddard IX, AGoT 35)

I think Ned actually knew of Robert's nature. he just didn't want to be cruel to Lyanna and maybe also lied a bit to himself about Robert. He wanted to believe, that Robert would change after the wedding. 

"That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall,"

A Game of Thrones, Eddard, 9

But no matter what, I don't think Ned had any real power, when it came to that betrothal anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/27/2019 at 11:03 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I know that he fought a war to rescue her, but still, he helped broker a betrothal between her and Robert; forget Southron Ambitions. Between Lyanna’s willful temperament and Robert’s proclivity for women, he really risked her becoming something like Cersei, twisted and evil.

Ned is like Samwell.  He failed to see the fault in a friend.  Robert was a dick but Ned couldn't see that.  Jon was a dick and Samwell couldn't see that.  We don't know the role Ned played in "southron ambitions". Maybe he was just being a good pack member and supported daddy's plan to overthrow the Targaryens.  In which case, he got away with treason for a while but in the end deserved execution.  I love the turnabout, Ned commits treason against the Targaryens on behalf of daddy and Robert. Forward fifteen years or so later and he gets executed for treason. Ned loved his family too much and expected them all to behave like a pack.  He expected Lyanna to do what the pack required her to do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well that's an assumption! We don't know at all what truly happened to her

That's why i said most likely. :P

 

1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Ned is like Samwell.  He failed to see the fault in a friend.  Robert was a dick but Ned couldn't see that.  Jon was a dick and Samwell couldn't see that.  We don't know the role Ned played in "southron ambitions". Maybe he was just being a good pack member and supported daddy's plan to overthrow the Targaryens.  In which case, he got away with treason for a while but in the end deserved execution.  I love the turnabout, Ned commits treason against the Targaryens on behalf of daddy and Robert. Forward fifteen years or so later and he gets executed for treason. Ned loved his family too much and expected them all to behave like a pack.  He expected Lyanna to do what the pack required her to do. 

:rofl:

 

 

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The critical part of this is what you say after this. Robert conceives Bella during the war in which he is supposedly trying to save Lyanna, not just to kill Targaryens. Bella and Gendry are evidence that no matter how much Robert says he loved Lyanna, he still couldn't stay faithful to her when she was supposedly being "raped" hundreds of times. Lyanna had Robert's character spotted right on the mark. He doesn't love Lyanna; he loves the possession - the ownership - of her. Robert is obsessed with Rhaegar's possession of what is by contract rightfully his.

 

He fathered Bella when he was about to be killed, quite literally hunted down door by door and we don't know when Gendry was fathered, "not that i care about the "he loves her he doesn't", absurd debate but, just for the sake of it:dunno::fencing:, as i said before, the idea that  for cheating you don't love someone, is cheap puritanism,  Hell, no one doubts that Davos loves his wife, why not??

Lyanna btw, never doubts that Robert "loved" her, but that the love wasn't enough for him to stop whoring around.

 

 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think Ned actually knew of Robert's nature. he just didn't want to be cruel to Lyanna and maybe also lied a bit to himself about Robert. He wanted to believe, that Robert would change after the wedding. 

"That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall,"

A Game of Thrones, Eddard, 9

“Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.” Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years. AGOT Eddard 1

Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. AGOT Eddard 1

I think the difference is quite clear, Robert never got over Lyanna, his approach with women he just wanted to have sex and with someone he allegedly loved wouldn't be the same.

Edited by frenin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, frenin said:

“Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.” Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years. AGOT Eddard 1

Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. AGOT Eddard 1

I think the difference is quite clear, Robert never got over Lyanna, his approach with women he just wanted to have sex and with someone he allegedly loved wouldn't be the same.

"the way Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with hand or mouth. Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually, he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them."

"In the first few years, when he mounted her more often, she would close her eyes and pretend that he was Rhaegar. She could not pretend that he was Jaime; he was too different, too unfamiliar. Even the smell of him was wrong. For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale."

"The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down, Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year, he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though."

A Feast for Crows, Cersei,7

The attitude that the victim is provoking the rapist through their actions and is basically causing them to rape them is total BS. And in my opinion just victim blaming. You are either capable of those actions or you aren't. And if you are capable of rape, there is always the potential of it. With Lyanna it might have been different. But sooner or later they would have had a fight, Robert would have drunk to much and he would have done the same thing to Lyanna, that he did to Cersei. And maybe the conflict would have been even worse , because at a certain point he might have learned that she is not "the perfect woman" and doesn't behave the way he expected and wanted her to.

And also Robert did not truly love Lyanna, because he did not know her. Love is something, that grows over time. I believe LF's "love" for Cat more, than Bobby B's for Lyanna, because he did actually know Cat and spend a lot of time with her. Bobby B's seemed to have been a strong infatuation, that later turned into a fixation and obsession and that is never a great basis for a successful relationship anyway. I think Bobby B just blamed everything, that went wrong in his life on "losing Lyanna". But if he had gotten Lyanna he would have found something else to put the blame on. Taking responsibility isn't his strong suit. 

This idea, that he never got over not getting the one true love of his life and therefore all relationships with women were forever doomed might seem like a romantic notion, but is in reality just an excuse to be a bad human being and a lazy king. How many ppl have truly lost a loved one and haven't turned into gross useless pigs?

 

It's the same with LF, how many ppl have been turned done by their teenage crush, without going "insane", because of it?- basically everyone.

It's just an excuse for already bad human beings to do bad things and not having to take responsibility for it. 

I think Robert is not grieving for Lyanna, but for the idea of her and also for the young man he was back then, when he was engaged to her and for that time in his life and for the fantasy life, that would have followed (as he tells himself) with her. 

This quote is from Ned's perspective and of course Ned wants to think only the best about his friend, (imo it's one of his more obvious weaknesses throughout AGOT). And also Ned is still grieving about Lyanna and about everything that happened between him and her, so it gives him comfort that someone is grieving along side with him. But I'm pretty sure it's different kind of grieving.

 

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...