Star Wars The Clone Wars & The Bad Batch [Spoilers]

[RumHam]

That was a pretty meh season of TV. It would be understandable if Filloni was distracted by the Ahsoka show and the others. 

There's room for it to improve of course, but since the Batch themselves never really clicked for me and we're getting a ton of new Star Wars shows soon it feels a little pointless. Even though I like seeing the transitional era. 

I say let it run three seasons and get darker and darker as the reality of life under the empire becomes clear. I'm guessing none of these guys are alive in the Rebels/A New Hope era so why not Rogue One them over the course of the last season. Let them all die getting Omega to safety and then pick up her story in another more interesting show. 

[DaveSumm]

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

That was a pretty meh season of TV. It would be understandable if Filloni was distracted by the Ahsoka show and the others. 

There's room for it to improve of course, but since the Batch themselves never really clicked for me and we're getting a ton of new Star Wars shows soon it feels a little pointless. Even though I like seeing the transitional era. 

I say let it run three seasons and get darker and darker as the reality of life under the empire becomes clear. I'm guessing none of these guys are alive in the Rebels/A New Hope era so why not Rogue One them over the course of the last season. Let them all die getting Omega to safety and then pick up her story in another more interesting show. 

Yea I’d agree with all that. Wrecker and Crosshair are the only ones who seem to have personalities, ‘leader’ and ‘good with gadgets’ not really counting in my book. And honestly I couldn’t tell you a single thing that Echo has done all season.

I like the idea though, make it a pretty bleak series and then pick up Omega down the line.

[Myrddin]

Wow. Not sure how that's a season finale. Good episode on it's own, as the end of Kamino's clone centers was pretty brutal.

I do like how the show has filled in the blanks of the early establishment of the Empire as a power, but as a standalone show? Not really feeling it. As others have said, the character "lessons" or growth keep repeating themselves, as if the clones can't learn past their default programming to learn something new.  The characters are not really in a different place now than, say, episode 3. New family established. Move on.

This show epitomizes what drives me a bit crazy about Clone Wars and Rebels. I'd like to see Filoni grow as a storyteller beyond these formulaic and a bit boring season ones. TBH, I do think Mandolorian suffers much the same. It just was saved by the cuteness of Grogu and coolness of finally seeing "Boba Fett" type character living up to the bounty hunter reputation.

[Ghostlydragon]

11 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Yea I’d agree with all that. Wrecker and Crosshair are the only ones who seem to have personalities, ‘leader’ and ‘good with gadgets’ not really counting in my book. And honestly I couldn’t tell you a single thing that Echo has done all season.

I like the idea though, make it a pretty bleak series and then pick up Omega down the line.

Omg yes. Echo has been completely wasted. There aren't that many characters. In 16/17 episodes, there is enough time to develop everybody but they haven't 

[Ghostlydragon]

7 hours ago, Myrddin said:

This show epitomizes what drives me a bit crazy about Clone Wars and Rebels. I'd like to see Filoni grow as a storyteller beyond these formulaic and a bit boring season ones. TBH, I do think Mandolorian suffers much the same. It just was saved by the cuteness of Grogu and coolness of finally seeing "Boba Fett" type character living up to the bounty hunter reputation.

What's been bothering me about this show, and Mandalorian s2, as well as the other shows to an extent, is that they are too focused on introducing so many characters that keep coming back. I mean did anyone really want those 2 sisters from the weakest clone wars s7 arc to come back? Anyone could have gotten Rex back into the picture. It didn't need to be those two.

But it makes the galaxy a bit small. Although I loved seeing much older Bo Katan and Ahsoka back in Mandalorian, seeing Kanan and his master as well as Fennec Shand in the bad batch, seems a bit unnecessary and pretty unlikely, especially when they are gone within 1 or 2 episodes.

I can see why the term Filoni Verse hae come up.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

What's been bothering me about this show, and Mandalorian s2, as well as the other shows to an extent, is that they are too focused on introducing so many characters that keep coming back. I mean did anyone really want those 2 sisters from the weakest clone wars s7 arc to come back? Anyone could have gotten Rex back into the picture. It didn't need to be those two.

But it makes the galaxy a bit small. Although I loved seeing much older Bo Katan and Ahsoka back in Mandalorian, seeing Kanan and his master as well as Fennec Shand in the bad batch, seems a bit unnecessary and pretty unlikely, especially when they are gone within 1 or 2 episodes.

I can see why the term Filoni Verse hae come up.

See, I didn't mind the episode with the two sisters, the way a lot of people did, granted I had the luxury or being able to watch all of those episodes back to back, since I binge watched the Clone Wars and Rebels this past winter. I could only assume many people here watched it weekly, which I believe was also during lock down as well, for a lot us; which I'm sure was a very different experience.

Sure it wasn't the best set of episodes, but any stretch of the imagination, but the scene Ahsoka calls Anakin her older brother, really tugged at my heart strings. I also enjoyed Ahsoka having to solve a lot of her problems, without using her jedi powers or having to use them in ways that wouldn't standout anyway. For some reason, I like episodes or entire series where people with superpowers are forced to act like normal people.

Don't get me wrong, they weren't great episodes, but compared to any of the Jar Jar centered episodes, the underwater world arc, and the one that had the frog Jedi constantly bullying Rex, it was Citizen Kane. To be honest, I wasn't even very impressed on the introduction of the Bad Batch on the Clone Wars. They seem like a very last minute addition to the show and I really think this show is suffering a lot as a result.

[Lord Varys]

The implication I got from all those characters showing up - and some of them like the Raxus senator being introduced - is that this is kind of the proto-Rebellion in the making. Various folks who have issues with the Empire for different reasons connecting on a very informal level.

I expect or hope that the plan is that the Bad Batch find themselves in the middle of a larger story - and that the first season was the prelude to this.

If that weren't the case then it would indeed be stretching things that they met all those important people and they were just there to have cameos.

The natural next step would be to show what Ahsoka and Mon Mothma and Bail Organa are doing - and how the early resistance against the Empire started to develop. And then, of course, what setbacks they suffered so that things get even more dire in the future.

[Ran]

Very exciting project. They should do more of this sort of stuff, handing Star Wars to creators from completely different cultures -- what would a Chinese screenwriter and director, or a Nigerian screenwriter and director, make of it?  Why can't there be a Spanish-language Star Wars with a Latino cast? I'd be interested, anyways.

[Kalbear]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The implication I got from all those characters showing up - and some of them like the Raxus senator being introduced - is that this is kind of the proto-Rebellion in the making. Various folks who have issues with the Empire for different reasons connecting on a very informal level.

I expect or hope that the plan is that the Bad Batch find themselves in the middle of a larger story - and that the first season was the prelude to this.

Except we've already gotten the 'protorebellion' story - that was, well, Rebels. And it had the same kinds of problems. 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The natural next step would be to show what Ahsoka and Mon Mothma and Bail Organa are doing - and how the early resistance against the Empire started to develop. And then, of course, what setbacks they suffered so that things get even more dire in the future.

I disagree. What I would prefer is following the Bad Batch around as actual good characters and not as a vehicle to see Other Important people doing their things. If they want to do a Bail and Mon Game of Thrones cartoon I'm all for it - but don't use the Bad Batch as the way to show that. Show the Bad Batch actually doing things that are, well, not so sucky. 

And have them be actual characters that are vaguely interesting on their own instead of just, well, random schmoes. When your name is also your job and your description (Tech) you know you've got some problems. 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Very exciting project. They should do more of this sort of stuff, handing Star Wars to creators from completely different cultures -- what would a Chinese screenwriter and director, or a Nigerian screenwriter and director, make of it?  Why can't there be a Spanish-language Star Wars with a Latino cast? I'd be interested, anyways.

I suppose I am in the minority. I don't like anime, and this trailer reminds me why. I don't care at all about this. I've already unsubscribed from Disney+ once TBB ended, and the next show of interest is The Book of Bobba Fett.

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I suppose I am in the minority. I don't like anime, and this trailer reminds me why. I don't care at all about this. I've already unsubscribed from Disney+ once TBB ended, and the next show of interest is The Book of Bobba Fett.

FWIW, Temuera Morrison will be voicing Boba Fett in whatever episode(s) feature him.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Kaligator said:

Except we've already gotten the 'protorebellion' story - that was, well, Rebels. And it had the same kinds of problems. 

I went into Rebels assuming that’s what would happen, but it didn’t really. One day they revealed there was all these other cells of Rebels, and it was kinda fully formed. But it was certainly better placed to tell that story, it’d be weird if The Bad Batch tried to out-Rebels Rebels. 

Maybe Wars just made the same mistake as Trek; there isn’t anything that interesting about this middling time period so why not move on instead of filling in every gap you can find.

[Corvinus85]

I agree that it would be weird for the Bad Batch characters to get themselves involved with the upper echelon of the Rebellion, but it's not totally out of the question. And the Kenobi show may cover that, too.

I see possible storylines touching on criminal organizations. We may see Maul and how he finally loses his criminal empire. Again, though, Kenobi could cover that, too. 

I would not be surprised if we got a Han Solo cameo and/or Lando + other characters from Solo. But they need to show us the fate of all the remaining clone troops. Will the Empire simply exhaust them in conquests across the galaxy or is something more sinister planned for them? A clone rebellion may still occur, even if the setting will be new.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Kaligator said:

Except we've already gotten the 'protorebellion' story - that was, well, Rebels. And it had the same kinds of problems. 

You have a point there, but in Rebels the Rebellion is already going on - the Ghost crew are just a (minor) catalyst in getting it going some more.

What I expect from The Bad Batch is that folks might want to set up something like the Rebellion - or make a first attempt at that - and this is then going nowhere.

6 hours ago, Kaligator said:

I disagree. What I would prefer is following the Bad Batch around as actual good characters and not as a vehicle to see Other Important people doing their things. If they want to do a Bail and Mon Game of Thrones cartoon I'm all for it - but don't use the Bad Batch as the way to show that. Show the Bad Batch actually doing things that are, well, not so sucky. 

And have them be actual characters that are vaguely interesting on their own instead of just, well, random schmoes. When your name is also your job and your description (Tech) you know you've got some problems. 

I'm not sure the Bad Batch could do something interesting all by themselves. They either join with proto-rebels ... or they end up being smugglers and genuine folks who move stuff around.

In a sense, the show suffers from the same mistakes as the first season of Rebels ... where the stakes are really low and the gang isn't even remotely in the thick of things.

The Bad Batch started big with the end of the Clone Wars and all that Kamino business with Tarkin and all ... and then very few important things happened.

And I don't buy the idea that, for instance, the Syndullas were introduced in that show just to disappear for good. It's the same with Kanan.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Very exciting project. They should do more of this sort of stuff, handing Star Wars to creators from completely different cultures -- what would a Chinese screenwriter and director, or a Nigerian screenwriter and director, make of it?  Why can't there be a Spanish-language Star Wars with a Latino cast? I'd be interested, anyways.

I'm looking very much forward to this.

[Jaxom 1974]

One wonders if the Bad Batch wanders into the territory of dealing with the organized crime underworld that seems prevalent in SW back stories...Maul and the like. Help to explain why it seems like a thing in extended stuff, but isn't anything specific by the time ANH rolls around.. and yes, I know that that stuff didn't exist at that time, but it seems like the kind of thing Filioni would want to do...

[Maia]

On 8/7/2021 at 6:53 PM, RumHam said:

Yeah Omega is the same age as Boba, I believe. The Batch can't have been created until after CT-99 made his sacrifice in The Clone Wars. 

But wouldn't that mean that the Bad Batch are like 2 years old, which is absurd? How long did the Clone Wars continue for, anyway?  Omega looks significantly younger than Boba, too, 10 at most. And it is a bit odd that she can remember the Bad Batch being in the lab, while they don't remember it. I mean she has to be at least 3 years older than them for that, if she ages normally, right? And all those treatment chambers in the finale were adult-size, too, hm...

My current impression is that Omega ages slower than normal, which sorta kinda makes sense given her role as a living DNA reservoir. I hope that at some point we get some explanation why she was made female and how she could possibly serve as a template for male clones despite that.  

 

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The chips don't really make any sense at this point. Wrecker's chip made him a murderous monster, but as far as I can remember he never actually had any orders from the empire to kill Omega. So his looming over her say "good soldiers follow orders" never made any sense to me. 

Yea, I thought that the chips made the  clones follow all orders given to them by those above them in the military hierarchy, with Palpy's ones overriding everything else, which is why they seemingly also lost all their identifying color patches and painted armor designs after the Order 66, but then the Ryloth guy showed up, demonstrating that this wasn't the case. And I still don't understand why it wasn't.

 

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You could imagine that during the clone wars the guy on Ryloth suffered a head wound that damaged his chip.

Wouldn't explain why half his squad joined him, after his heart-felt speech, though.

 

On 8/7/2021 at 10:35 PM, Maltaran said:

I imagine the officers mostly came from the Navy - the command staff on republic ships tended to not be clones. Fits with Rampart being an Admiral and not a General.

No, in "The Clone Wars" all the command staff except for the captains of the biggest ships were clones. Which, I thought, was a significant oversight, when I watched the series a couple of years back. Probably budget-related, but still. 

 

On 8/8/2021 at 12:28 PM, Ghostlydragon said:

And each planet had its own security force, eg the army that fight for Padme in TPM. I imagine a lot of soldiers, officers and admirals are bought in from their home planets too.

Except that we never saw them previously, and nothing suggests that they would have relevant skills and experience. All that we were shown previously were some rugged local resistance fighters, leading guerilla wars against the Separatist armies. And most of them were planet-based, with maybe a few fighters or small ships. Also, none of those we saw in the Clone Wars joined the Empire.

 

On 8/8/2021 at 11:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that is my guess as well. The chips only were designed for Order 66 and not to turn the clones into mindless drones in the hands of the Emperor.

But why not?! And what about the 65 other Orders? I mean, who doesn't want some highly trained and genetically tweaked Janissaries? I can see that the Kaminoans were a weak link and had to be removed, but in "The Clone Wars" the medical personnel were also clones, so it could have been turned into a self-perpetuating cycle, where all of the particpants were bound to follow the Emperor's orders. Their command chain could also be clones, so that no ambitious general could highjack them. A highly competent elite force that is  blindly loyal - what Evil Overlord wouldn't jump at something like that ? I guess the fact that the chips could be so easily removed is a flaw, but surely it made more sense to work on a failsafe than to just abandon the idea?

 

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 For one, conscripts have to be found and trained, meaning you need much more time and resources. Also, you have to build the training infrastructure.

Well, yes and no. The conscripts would be cheaper and quicker - they are recruited as adults, can be trained up in a year or less, and imposing the Empire on the galaxy did require many more soldiers than the clone army could provide. But it certainly made perfect sense to keep the clones as an elite force and continue producing replacements - which would have also been indoctrinated from birth in addition to chips. I guess, it would have made the Empire pretty much invincible, though.

I think that the canonical answer is going to be that the chips only worked short-term and the control began to break down afterwards. Maybe the Kaminoans even made it that way on purpose, trying to ensure their own relevance. 

 

On 8/11/2021 at 3:47 PM, Ghostlydragon said:

 And he has to give some basic sith training to Vader too.

I am still confused re: what this fabled Sith training actually entails. As far as I have seen until now, a powerful Jedi could just go dark and have all the same abilities that the Sith do. My impression is that Dooku just wasted his time being subservient to Palapatine.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:29 PM, sifth said:

. I also enjoyed Ahsoka having to solve a lot of her problems, without using her jedi powers or having to use them in ways that wouldn't standout anyway. For some reason, I like episodes or entire series where people with superpowers are forced to act like normal people.

Yea, IMHO "a Jedi undercover" is an interesting premise that could work very well. That's what I want to see in Kenobi series. Unfortunately, they just never could hold to it so far - the attempts to be circumspect always failed, like in the aforementioned  Martinez episodes and "Rebels", so that conspicious Force useage/lightsabers had to come out. A pity, really. 

P.S. I agree that the first season of "The Bad Batch" was kinda meh, despite being visually impressive. I liked the first seasons of both  "Rebels" and "The Clones Wars" much better.

[Ghostlydragon]

13 minutes ago, Maia said:

 

I am still confused re: what this fabled Sith training actually entails. As far as I have seen until now, a powerful Jedi could just go dark and have all the same abilities that the Sith do. My impression is that Dooku just wasted his time being subservient to Palapatine.

 

To be honest, in Vaders case very little. He can't do force lightning and there are probably other dark side powers that are impossible for him too.

I imagine its most likely just "move on from your grief and focus on your pain to get stronger. Oh and build the traditional red lightsaber. 

[RumHam]

33 minutes ago, Maia said:

But wouldn't that mean that the Bad Batch are like 2 years old, which is absurd? How long did the Clone Wars continue for, anyway?  Omega looks significantly younger than Boba, too, 10 at most. And it is a bit odd that she can remember the Bad Batch being in the lab, while they don't remember it. I mean she has to be at least 3 years older than them for that, if she ages normally, right? And all those treatment chambers in the finale were adult-size, too, hm...

I'm terrible at discerning kids ages in real life and probably worse when it comes to cartoons. I'd assumed she was created at the same time as Boba but you're probably right. Also I suppose it's possible that the enhanced clones were created before CT-99 died and their squad was named in memory of him after that, I guess.  

[DaveSumm]

The clones growth is accelerated, so I don’t see why 2 years is any crazier than whatever age Omega is.