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Aldarion

Symbolic names

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3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Just browsing through Welsh names:

https://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/welsh

And Bran means "raven". So new three-eyed raven is named "raven". And I'm certain there are lot more symbolic names than that.

Theon means godly.

Only a godly man may sit the Seastone chair.  :)

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32 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Theon means godly.

Only a godly man may sit the Seastone chair.  :)

So Theon will become king of Iron Islands.

Varys comes from Varus, which is a Latin term:

  1. A deformity in which the foot is turned inward.

Meaning & History

This name is a Roman family name meaning "bow-legged, knock-kneed, bent, crooked."

 

One bearer of this family name was Roman general and politician Publius Quinctilius Varus (46 BC-9 AD).

https://www.behindthename.com/name/varus/submitted

 

Which actually reminds me of some bandy-legged characters, such as Shakespeare's Richard III or Thersites.

https://books.google.hr/books?id=uIQL0ClhP78C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=bandy-legged+characters+in+shakespeare&source=bl&ots=qLBL0KrE6u&sig=ACfU3U2T6T5608_WHecVN87ag4V0mYV2wg&hl=hr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB2czkrfXpAhWvxIUKHe1ZBhsQ6AEwE3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=bandy-legged characters in shakespeare&f=false

https://books.google.hr/books?id=xm91IMERSKsC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=bandy-legged+characters+in+shakespeare&source=bl&ots=1_FQnHye03&sig=ACfU3U3l4lrWbu8WsABcdbzO0KU6XlJ8ww&hl=hr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB2czkrfXpAhWvxIUKHe1ZBhsQ6AEwFXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=bandy-legged characters in shakespeare&f=false

Not sure whether anything will come out of it, though.

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The most interesting names are the ones GRRM seems to have invented wholecloth, names without a real-world counterpart, especially as pertains to family names. To me, tracking those names and deciphering them is a key to some of the deeper mysteries of the series. Some are easily dismissed as being a slight permutation of a real surname (ie, Lancaster -> Lannister) but some are not so easily ignored.

For example, the name "Lothston" does not appear to be a real surname, so it appears GRRM invented it. Together with all the weird breadcrumbs about house Lothston scattered around the novels and novellas, one wonders if they are of hidden importance. Any surname with "ton" at the end could be a place name, but with no place called "Loth's Town" or anything similar, we've got to translate it; it appears to mean "Hateful Stone" which is a very interesting name for a house deeply connected to Harrenhal. Then you note that their sigil is a bat (a winged beast) and connect Lucas Lothston to the origins of the Shadow Fire Blackfyre rebellion you start to have a real contender for one of the more obscure lines of prophecy. Then consider that the Whents are almost certainly descended from the Lothstons, and that Catelyn Stark's mother was a Whent. And remember that Sansa was very oddly described as a wolf/bat creature in a very strange dream sequence, and also consider that her trajectory is taking her to a place where she could possibly become Lady of Harrenhal.

Many pieces to an interesting puzzle all falling into place simply by analyzing one of a handful of family names GRRM didn't simply pull out of a phonebook.

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21 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Just browsing through Welsh names:

https://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/welsh

And Bran means "raven". So new three-eyed raven is named "raven". And I'm certain there are lot more symbolic names than that.

Well, there’s no “three-eyed raven” in the books. But more importantly, Martin was specifically asked whether he’d chosen the name “Bran” for any particular reason, and his reply was something along the lines of, “no, I just thought it sounded cool”. And no, I don’t have a link to it b/c this was last year in NI during an event at Castle Ward and I’m still working on the transcription. When I’m done I will submit it. But you can ask @sweetsunray if you don’t believe me, she was sitting right next to me, as was @Fragile Bird. :)

 

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23 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Just browsing through Welsh names:

https://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/welsh

And Bran means "raven". So new three-eyed raven is named "raven". And I'm certain there are lot more symbolic names than that.

I always ask myself, if GRRM really creates these names based on their meanings in other languages. Idk, if we just over interpret it all a bit at times :D

But since we are at it "Stark" means "strong" in German. I think that's interesting in regards to the "zombie Gregor got Rob's head theory" (even though dunno, if I really believe it, because logistics) Rob Stark-Robert Strong ??? :dunno:

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Posted (edited)

But GRRM does a bunch of other cool things with names:

Cat of the canals + Alayne =Catelyn

Sandor, Sansa

Tywin, Tyrion, Tysha

Drogon, Viserion - these names IMO symbolize the only kind of love Dany has ever gotten to know, which should be concerning, also dragons are inherently violent creatures and the "love" Dany has received from Viserys and Drogo was violent too and abusive

And I think Rhaegal represents the kind of love, that she is longing for, the perfect fairytale love, that she can make up in her mind, which will never disappoint her, because her brother is dead and she can keep the perfect image of him in her mind.

Very sad, that Dany actually doesn't know real love at all. And she names the most important creatures in her life, her children after two men, who were abusive to her and one fairytale brother, who can never fail her.

(the names of the direwolves are obvious)

We of course have Lancaster=Lannister, York=Stark

I also find it interesting, that Ned named his two eldest sons after the two most important men in his life Robert (Robb) and Jon Arryn (Jon Snow)  and I wonder, if Robert named Edric after Eddard (I for sure wonder what all those little Neds running around could mean for Arya and Sansa- just an idea of course)

I'm sure there is so much to find concerning the names, sadly I'm not expert. But wonderful thread! I'll for sure stick around, I have a thing for symbolic names :D

 

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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Stark originally meant strong in English too, now means extreme or sheer as in stark contrast, stark poverty, stark terror, or sheer in the sense of bare, unadorned, uncompromised - a stark landscape.

My favourite are gregor - watchful, vigilant and sandor - defender of men (people) - good names for guard dogs.

 

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Also, "Stannis" comes from latin word stannum, which is word for tin. Ironically, tin is malleable and soft enough to be cut by a knife - which may be early indication that Stannis is not in fact "hard and brittle" like Donal Noye claims. Also, tin easily bonds with iron and copper - with Renly being copper, this would indicate that Robert was, in fact, iron (logical - he was brittle, hence why he became a drunkard). Though it may not be the only meaning.

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Samwell= Samwise (LotR)

also heard lately for the first time, that the "creature"/persona Reek might be a homage to Gollum. And those are both weird names meant to dehumanize/dehobbitize ^_^

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Samwell= Samwise (LotR)

Actually Sam's name is also chosen for Sam of Lord of Light (a novel by his late friend Roger Zelazny). Lord of Light is a sci-fantasy novel, which George regards as one of the best 5 sci-fi novels ever written. In short the story is about human colonizers on a non-earth planet who are so advanced in technology they pretend to be gods to the locals they colonized, in particular Hindu gods. They have a machine to reincarnate into another body (god) of their choosing. One of them is Mahasamatman, who prefers to drop the Maha- and the -atman and just goes by the name Sam. He's a rebel, and disagrees with his fellow colonizers keeping their colonized low and themselves in power. Except, he lost once, and instead of being allowed to reincarnate, they sent him with a machine to remain for years in a the celestial plasm around the planet - aka nirvana. So, Sam is Buddha. At the start of the novel, finally three of the god-colonizers (god of death, goddess of the night and ape god) forcibly reincarnate Sam again to help them in their effort to topple the other colonizers.

George's title of the god Rh'llor is a direct reference to this novel - Lord of Light. While Sam may seem to start out as Jon's sidekick/companion in the sense that Samwise was to Frodo, Sam very much has a story of his own since aSoS, and when he's caught in the net by Meera at the Nightfort, his self-identification as "I'm SAM!" ... "I'm Sam, Sam, Sam," and modest responses match the introductory reincarnation scene of LoL's Sam. Note too that immediately after this Jojen starts a fire and "then there was light". In the same scene we also get a description of Sam's obesity (several chins), calling forth the image of the fat-laughing Buddha. From then on, he has Sam be far more cunning than we originally perceived him with the election of the new LC, which is how LoL's Sam operates: modest, subversive, cunning.

(It's not the sole Zelazny novel that George inserted references for)

https://georgerrmartin.com/about-george/friends/in-memoriam-roger-zelazny/

Edited by sweetsunray

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On 6/10/2020 at 8:37 AM, Damon_Tor said:

For example, the name "Lothston" does not appear to be a real surname, so it appears GRRM invented it. Together with all the weird breadcrumbs about house Lothston scattered around the novels and novellas, one wonders if they are of hidden importance.

Yes, they are ^_^ I think that they are Littlefinger's ancestors. It's good that at least someone else besides me also notices those clues given by GRRM.

It seems that Jeyne Lothston, Aegon's eight mistress, was his bastard-daughter. The real reason why she was sent away from the Red Keep, is that she got pregnant from her own father, and gave birth to a person that later in history became known as the Bastard of Harrenhal, Manfryd o' the Black Hood, and then Manfryd Lothston. It's likely that after Jeyne in secret gave birth to her son, he was acknowledged by Jeyne's "official" father, Lucas Lothston, as Lucas' son born by some made up woman, and thus became the Bastard of Harrenhal. He had Targaryen silver-gold hair, unlike real Lothstons, who were all readheads, so to hide his real identity he was always wearing a black hood. During First Blackfyre Rebellion at first he sided with Daemon, but then betrayed Blackfyres in exchange of being legitimized by King Daeron as a Lothston, and after the Rebellion became Manfryd Lothston. Though Lucas Lothston left his inheritance and Harrenhal to his daughter or niece, Danelle Lothston. Then Manfryd went to Braavos, where he had a child with one of Bellegere-girls, bastard-daughter or granddaugher of Aegon IV. That child is Littlefinger's great grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos. After returning from Braavos, Manfryd reinvented himself and became a Whent. Either he did the same thing as Daemon Waters, who renamed himself Daemon Blackfyre, or he married with a Whent-girl, and took his wife's last name, same how Joffrey Lydden thru marriage became Joffrey Lannister, or he just made up his new name like it was done by Aegon the Conqueror's bastard-brother, Orys Baratheon. This first Whent orchestrated dawnfall of House Lothston, to whom he served as a sworn-knight. He was Lady Shella Whent's grandfather. So Littlefinger is a third cousin to Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure Tully, who are Whents on their mother's side. Thru Whent-line Catelyn's children are dragonseeds.

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On 6/10/2020 at 6:44 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Well, there’s no “three-eyed raven” in the books. But more importantly, Martin was specifically asked whether he’d chosen the name “Bran” for any particular reason, and his reply was something along the lines of, “no, I just thought it sounded cool”. And no, I don’t have a link to it b/c this was last year in NI during an event at Castle Ward and I’m still working on the transcription. When I’m done I will submit it. But you can ask @sweetsunray if you don’t believe me, she was sitting right next to me, as was @Fragile Bird. :)

 

Sorry, but George is full of crap there.  There is no way that he wasn't influenced by the mythology surrounding Bran the Blessed.  

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10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually Sam's name is also chosen for Sam of Lord of Light (a novel by his late friend Roger Zelazny).

I've stalled out on that one, about half way through.

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On 6/10/2020 at 12:37 AM, Damon_Tor said:

For example, the name "Lothston" does not appear to be a real surname, so it appears GRRM invented it.

There is a grave marker in Scotland called the Lothe Stone with a bit of a mythology surrounding it.  I don’t know if it was an inspiration or not, but I do believe that much of GRRM’s inspiration behind the Wall came from a trip he took to Northern England and Scotland.

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33 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sorry, but George is full of crap there.  There is no way that he wasn't influenced by the mythology surrounding Bran the Blessed.  

I’m just the messenger, don’t shoot me. 

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