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TWOW in 2021 seems ever more likely

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Posted (edited)
On 7/28/2020 at 11:27 AM, BlackLightning said:

Tell me more about this Blackgate? And why do you think this is being written last?

Well I was saving that when I write the Dark Sister Rebellion Theory.
But just for the Nightfort scene, I'll give you that part.
Warning ... it's a very very dark and disturbing theory for Jon's last TWOW POV Chapter ... the Black Wedding.

Spoiler

 

Basically Bloodraven, the army of the wights and the White Walkers are working together.
Bloodraven's tree has been uprooted by the wights and brought to the Blackgate with Bran, Meera and Hodor.

At this point, Jojen has been eaten and Jon Snow has been captured by Coldhands after pretending to be Benjen Stark.
Coldhands is Benjen Stark's dead body, resurrected by the Others and warged into by Bloodraven.

Jon Snow is emotionally disturbed by this: his beloved uncle's dead corpse walking and talking, controlled by an evil sorcerer, with no hint of any Benjen left.

All of them are gathered at Black Gate and tables are set up for a feast ... the Black Wedding.
Bloodraven, our Rat Cook, wants to prepare a wedding feast between Lord Commander Jon Snow and Meera Reed ... but Jon doesn't know why.

Before the feast can start, Bloodraven tells Jon to open the Blackgate with his NW vows.
Jon Snow is then instructed to go to the other side and use whatever able-men he can find, and open the Main Gate of the Nightfort.
While they wait for Jon to open the Main Gate ... Bran, Meera & Hodor will just be sitting here at this feast, unfed, until he gets back.

Jon Snow asks why they can't enter the Blackgate themselves?
Bloodraven says it is protected by magic, they cannot enter there.
Jon turns to Meera and she concurs. She even mentions that Samwell Tarly believed this is true too.

Jon, torn between family and duty, decides to sacrifice Bran and lie to Bloodraven.
His plan was to comply with opening the Blackgate, enter back into Westeros, warn everyone AND NOT open the Main Gate, leaving Bran to starve to death.

Jon says his NW vows and the Blackgate opens.

NOPE.

This was a cheap trick. All the wights start entering the Blackgate and into Westeros.

Jon, Meera, Bran & Hodor are all shocked.

Jon starts yelling at the Blackgate (like some TV idiot yelling at a zombie dragon) trying to get it to close, but he doesn't know how to close it to stop the Long Night.
Meanwhile, Bloodraven is doing his evil villain laugh.
Jon thinks of something else. He agrees to take Meera as a wife.
Bloodraven becomes excited, re-positions everyone for the ceremony.

As wights are still slowly entering Westeros, Jon is placed next to Meera and Hodor is placed by the Blackgate.
Jon says his wedding vows and becomes married to Meera.
The Blackgate then slowly begins to close, as Jon's quick-thinking of breaking his NW vows seems to be working.
A few wights got through already, but it can be dealt with (better than a whole army of wights).

Coldhands, warged by Bloodraven sitting on his wooden throne, approaches Hodor.
Bloodraven says "I know you! You are Wal-der. You are the son of the son of the son of Ser Duncan. I have a job for you with this door at this Wall"
Hodor is extremely frighten and keeps repeating "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor."
Bloodraven smiles ... "Yes! How did you know? I want you to hold that door!"

Coldhand, Benjen Stark's corpse, begins to pick up Hodor by the neck, with the intent of breaking it.
Bran wargs into Hodor and fights back. A Bran-warged Hodor punches Coldhands to the ground. Hodor then picks up an axe off the floor and chops Benjen's corpse-head off.
The little zombie Children of the Forest then rushes at Hodor with their bronze sickles and slit his throat in front of the eyes of the weirwood tree Blackgate.
Hodor's blood flows from his neck, to his beard, to the floor, and reaches Bran as Bran lies there helpless.
Hodor bleeds to death and is resurrected as an Ice wight by the White Walkers.

He gets up from his own pool of blood and walks under the closing Blackgate and holds the door.
Bloodraven chuckles ... "Son of the son of the son ... that is a Great grandson! Great job! Now Jon ... a wedding needs a bedding!"
Jon, all shocked, confused, crying ... thinks to himself "What have I done???"

End of Chapter.

I hate to say this, but if George doesn't want to reveal R+L in TWOW, he can. He can save it for ADOS.


Now in the Epilogue by a Queensman POV or a Selyse POV, all the wights are pouring out of the kitchen floor-hole like rats.
The Queensmen are getting slaughtered and resurrected immediately.
Patchface finds himself alone with Shireen, surrounded by wights.
Patchface then burns Shireen alive, preventing her from becoming a wight.
Patchface is then killed too by zombies.

The POV character is also killed, with his/her last sight of Shireen's and Patchface's bodies still on the floor.

End of TWOW.

 

ASOIAF is going to get Dark for ADOS guys, be warned. You can throw D&D's garbage in the trash. We'll get a much better story from GRRM ... no non-sense one-time time-travel paradox needed.

On 7/28/2020 at 11:27 AM, BlackLightning said:

I have never heard of this Blackgate scenario but I'm intrigued. I guess....

Haha. I see what you did there.

 

Edited by The Map Guy
Mad Axe!

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

Well I was saving that when I write the Dark Sister Rebellion Theory.
But just for the Nightfort scene, I'll give you that part.
Warning ... it's a very very dark and disturbing theory for Jon's last TWOW POV Chapter ... the Black Wedding.

  Hide contents

 

Basically Bloodraven, the army of the wights and the White Walkers are working together.
Bloodraven's tree has been uprooted by the wights and brought to the Blackgate with Bran, Meera and Hodor.

At this point, Jojen has been eaten and Jon Snow has been captured by Coldhands after pretending to be Benjen Stark.
Coldhands is Benjen Stark's dead body, resurrected by the Others and warged into by Bloodraven.

Jon Snow is emotionally disturbed by this: his beloved uncle's dead corpse walking and talking, controlled by an evil sorcerer, with no hint of any Benjen left.

All of them are gathered at Black Gate and tables are set up for a feast ... the Black Wedding.
Bloodraven, our Rat Cook, wants to prepare a wedding feast between Lord Commander Jon Snow and Meera Reed ... but Jon doesn't know why.

Before the feast can start, Bloodraven tells Jon to open the Blackgate with his NW vows.
Jon Snow is then instructed to go to the other side and use whatever able-men he can find, and open the Main Gate of the Nightfort.
While they wait for Jon to open the Main Gate ... Bran, Meera & Hodor will just be sitting here at this feast, unfed, until he gets back.

Jon Snow asks why they can't enter the Blackgate themselves?
Bloodraven says it is protected by magic, they cannot enter there.
Jon turns to Meera and she concurs. She even mentions that Samwell Tarly believed this is true too.

Jon, torn between family and duty, decides to sacrifice Bran and lie to Bloodraven.
His plan was to comply with opening the Blackgate, enter back into Westeros, warn everyone AND NOT open the Main Gate, leaving Bran to starve to death.

Jon says his NW vows and the Blackgate opens.

NOPE.

This was a cheap trick. All the wights start entering the Blackgate and into Westeros.

Jon, Meera, Bran & Hodor are all shocked.

Jon starts yelling at the Blackgate (like some TV idiot yelling at a zombie dragon) trying to get it to close, but he doesn't know how to close it to stop the Long Night.
Meanwhile, Bloodraven is doing his evil villain laugh.
Jon thinks of something else. He agrees to take Meera as a wife.
Bloodraven becomes excited, re-positions everyone for the ceremony.

As wights are still slowly entering Westeros, Jon is placed next to Meera and Hodor is placed by the Blackgate.
Jon says his wedding vows and becomes married to Meera.
The Blackgate then slowly begins to close, as Jon's quick-thinking of breaking his NW vows seems to be working.
A few wights got through already, but it can be dealt with (better than a whole army of wights).

Coldhands, warged by Bloodraven sitting on his wooden throne, approaches Hodor.
Bloodraven says "I know you! You are Wal-der. You are the son of the son of the son of Ser Duncan. I have a job for you with this door at this Wall"
Hodor is extremely frighten and keeps repeating "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor."
Bloodraven smiles ... "Yes! How did you know? I want you to hold that door!"

Coldhand, Benjen Stark's corpse, begins to pick up Hodor by the neck, with the intent of breaking it.
Bran wargs into Hodor and fights back. A Bran-warged Hodor punches Coldhands to the floor. Hodor then rips Benjen's corpse-head off.
The little zombie Children of the Forest then rushes at Hodor with their scythes and slit his throat in front of the eyes of the weirwood tree Blackgate.
Hodor's blood flows from his neck, to the floor, and reaches Bran as Bran lies on the floor helpless.
Hodor bleeds to death and is resurrected as an Ice wight by the White Walkers.

He gets up from his own pool of blood and walks under the closing Blackgate and holds the door.
Bloodraven chuckles ... "Son of the son of the son ... that is a Great grandson! Great job! Now Jon ... a wedding needs a bedding!"
Jon, all shocked, confused, crying ... thinks to himself "What have I done???"

End of Chapter.

I hate to say this, but if George doesn't want to reveal R+L in TWOW, he can. He can save it for ADOS.


Now in the Epilogue by a Queensman POV or a Selyse POV, all the wights are pouring out of the kitchen floor-hole like rats.
The Queensmen are getting slaughtered and resurrected immediately.
Patchface finds himself alone with Shireen, surrounded by wights.
Patchface then burns Shireen alive, preventing her from becoming a wight.
Patchface is then killed too by zombies.

The POV character is also killed, with his/her last sight of Shireen's and Patchface's bodies still on the floor.

End of TWOW.

 

ASOIAF is going to get Dark for ADOS guys, be warned. You can throw D&D's garbage in the trash. We'll get a much better story from GRRM ... no non-sense one-time time-travel paradox needed.

Haha. I see what you did there.

 

 Is that a theory? Sounds more like unwarranted, unfounded fanfiction based on nothing but an obviously creative mind. But nothing else.

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

Well I was saving that when I write the Dark Sister Rebellion Theory.
But just for the Nightfort scene, I'll give you that part.
Warning ... it's a very very dark and disturbing theory for Jon's last TWOW POV Chapter ... the Black Wedding.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Basically Bloodraven, the army of the wights and the White Walkers are working together.
Bloodraven's tree has been uprooted by the wights and brought to the Blackgate with Bran, Meera and Hodor.

At this point, Jojen has been eaten and Jon Snow has been captured by Coldhands after pretending to be Benjen Stark.
Coldhands is Benjen Stark's dead body, resurrected by the Others and warged into by Bloodraven.

Jon Snow is emotionally disturbed by this: his beloved uncle's dead corpse walking and talking, controlled by an evil sorcerer, with no hint of any Benjen left.

All of them are gathered at Black Gate and tables are set up for a feast ... the Black Wedding.
Bloodraven, our Rat Cook, wants to prepare a wedding feast between Lord Commander Jon Snow and Meera Reed ... but Jon doesn't know why.

Before the feast can start, Bloodraven tells Jon to open the Blackgate with his NW vows.
Jon Snow is then instructed to go to the other side and use whatever able-men he can find, and open the Main Gate of the Nightfort.
While they wait for Jon to open the Main Gate ... Bran, Meera & Hodor will just be sitting here at this feast, unfed, until he gets back.

Jon Snow asks why they can't enter the Blackgate themselves?
Bloodraven says it is protected by magic, they cannot enter there.
Jon turns to Meera and she concurs. She even mentions that Samwell Tarly believed this is true too.

Jon, torn between family and duty, decides to sacrifice Bran and lie to Bloodraven.
His plan was to comply with opening the Blackgate, enter back into Westeros, warn everyone AND NOT open the Main Gate, leaving Bran to starve to death.

Jon says his NW vows and the Blackgate opens.

NOPE.

This was a cheap trick. All the wights start entering the Blackgate and into Westeros.

Jon, Meera, Bran & Hodor are all shocked.

Jon starts yelling at the Blackgate (like some TV idiot yelling at a zombie dragon) trying to get it to close, but he doesn't know how to close it to stop the Long Night.
Meanwhile, Bloodraven is doing his evil villain laugh.
Jon thinks of something else. He agrees to take Meera as a wife.
Bloodraven becomes excited, re-positions everyone for the ceremony.

As wights are still slowly entering Westeros, Jon is placed next to Meera and Hodor is placed by the Blackgate.
Jon says his wedding vows and becomes married to Meera.
The Blackgate then slowly begins to close, as Jon's quick-thinking of breaking his NW vows seems to be working.
A few wights got through already, but it can be dealt with (better than a whole army of wights).

Coldhands, warged by Bloodraven sitting on his wooden throne, approaches Hodor.
Bloodraven says "I know you! You are Wal-der. You are the son of the son of the son of Ser Duncan. I have a job for you with this door at this Wall"
Hodor is extremely frighten and keeps repeating "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor."
Bloodraven smiles ... "Yes! How did you know? I want you to hold that door!"

Coldhand, Benjen Stark's corpse, begins to pick up Hodor by the neck, with the intent of breaking it.
Bran wargs into Hodor and fights back. A Bran-warged Hodor punches Coldhands to the floor. Hodor then rips Benjen's corpse-head off.
The little zombie Children of the Forest then rushes at Hodor with their scythes and slit his throat in front of the eyes of the weirwood tree Blackgate.
Hodor's blood flows from his neck, to the floor, and reaches Bran as Bran lies on the floor helpless.
Hodor bleeds to death and is resurrected as an Ice wight by the White Walkers.

He gets up from his own pool of blood and walks under the closing Blackgate and holds the door.
Bloodraven chuckles ... "Son of the son of the son ... that is a Great grandson! Great job! Now Jon ... a wedding needs a bedding!"
Jon, all shocked, confused, crying ... thinks to himself "What have I done???"

End of Chapter.

I hate to say this, but if George doesn't want to reveal R+L in TWOW, he can. He can save it for ADOS.


Now in the Epilogue by a Queensman POV or a Selyse POV, all the wights are pouring out of the kitchen floor-hole like rats.
The Queensmen are getting slaughtered and resurrected immediately.
Patchface finds himself alone with Shireen, surrounded by wights.
Patchface then burns Shireen alive, preventing her from becoming a wight.
Patchface is then killed too by zombies.

The POV character is also killed, with his/her last sight of Shireen's and Patchface's bodies still on the floor.

End of TWOW.

 

ASOIAF is going to get Dark for ADOS guys, be warned. You can throw D&D's garbage in the trash. We'll get a much better story from GRRM ... no non-sense one-time time-travel paradox needed.

Haha. I see what you did there.

Where’s the wedding? Also, I don’t think you need the spoiler tags. :dunno:

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17 hours ago, Travis said:

Is that a theory? Sounds more like unwarranted, unfounded fanfiction based on nothing but an obviously creative mind. But nothing else.

The guy I quoted in a signature said, years ago, that if TWoW wasn't released soon, somebody was going to go mad. I'm pretty sure it's starting to happen.

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20 hours ago, Travis said:

Is that a theory?

Yes. Sorry if you never heard of it. I like to write fresh theories by using unconventional methods. There are no theorists like me, but me.

20 hours ago, Travis said:

Sounds more like unwarranted

No. Back in BlackLightning's post, he said he was intrigued about the scenario and wanted to hear more ... so I let loose.

20 hours ago, Travis said:

unfounded fanfiction based on nothing but an obviously creative mind.

Well it is based on a fanfiction that I found by an obviously creative mind ... GRRM's first fanfiction that inspired him to be a writer:
https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-outtakes-from-the-rolling-stone-interview-233720/

A formative writing experience for me was in a high school English course. The teacher assigned us to write a new ending for Edgar Allan Poe’s The Pit and the Pendulum. Poe’s ending is actually crap: The guy is trapped, the pendulum is going lower and lower, it’s about to slice him in half, then suddenly there’s a trumpet blast and the Inquisition was in the hands of its enemies; the good guys have arrived and they save him. I wrote the horror ending; nobody comes to save the character, the pendulum cuts him in half. I described the blood and the excruciating pain; rats come out and are eating him and nibbling at his eyes, and wriggling into his chest. Another teacher might have been horrified and sent me to school psychologist, but fortunately, this particular teacher liked what I’d written, and had me read it in front of a class. It was like I was the class hero for a day. It was an all-boys school, and the boys loved the rats and the eating of the entrails, the blood and the guts. For a day I felt like the quarterback who had just won the big game here. Everybody loved my horrible-ending story. [Laughs] It was in high school when I started deciding that I would try to be a writer.
GRRM

High School GRRM: Rats coming out of a pit eating this character ... with no one to save him.
TWOW Epilogue? Zombies, controlled by the Rat Cook, comes out of the pit in the kitchen at the Nightfort ... the end of the world.

Me and GRRM would laugh at what I am about to say ... but it is not based on nothing.

  • The Blackgate = The Cave of Wonders in the 1992 Disney film Aladdin
  • Giant talking tree with a mouth for a door ~ Giant talking tiger with a mouth for a door
  • Only someone worthy can open the gate
  • Break a rule and the gate closes
  • A dark man with a dark purpose tricks the protagonist to getting what he wants

Also, if you have had the pleasure of reading my Top Secret Theory before it was banned, a Top Secret source requires Jon and Meera to fall for a cheap trick. Nothing cheaper than having the villain lying to the protagonist about which door he could or could not enter.

I have several in-book citations that would support the Black Wedding Theory, but it would make the thread really long.
But here are a few Nightfort quickies:

  • Rat Cook = Bloodraven breaking guest-rights by serving people food and then murdering them
  • LC Night's King and Corpse Queen = LC Jon and Meera ... a Stark story combined with Targaryen incest
  • Mad Axe (i forgot about him!!!) = Bran-warged Hodor axing Benjen's corpse head off ... Mad Axe's red beard is Hodor's bloody slit throat, the silence is zombie-Hodor that stops saying hodorhodorhodor

I like to use approved HBO GoT/book changes in Season 1 - 4 as a medium for GRRM to hide secret messages.
This certainly didn't happen in the books:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVdsdN5Erbs
TV Locke ~ Book Coldhands
"Brothers!"
TV Locke is pretending to a NW person, but he has a secret agenda.
Also, I know the meaning behind the names "Locke" and "Benjen" ... and yes they relate.

And obviously, my Black Wedding theory at the end of TWOW borrows elements of the ASOS Red Wedding.
I'm an late idiot, I just learned recently that the TWOW prologue will be in the Westerlands. And I just discovered that it will borrow some elements of the Red Wedding too ... but with a "twist". But that is quite appropriate: ASOS Red Wedding ~ TWOW beginning AND ending.

Anyways, I don't know what you guys predict on how the Wall will be breached.
Some may want some cheap Hollywood explosion, or an assault on Castle Black, or using the Horn of JOramuN.
But I want the conflict of the heart. I want something like JON being presented with a tough choice involving Meera, Bran and Hodor ... and it will not have a happy ending.

No happy choice. Sam thought of all the trials that he and Gilly suffered, Craster's Keep and the death of the Old Bear, snow and ice and freezing winds, days and days and days of walking, the wights at Whitetree, Coldhands and the tree of ravens (a Bloodraventree joke), the Wall, the Wall, the Wall, the Black Gate beneath the earth. What had it all been for? No happy choices and no happy endings. {Samwell II AFFC} 

 

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Where’s the wedding?

Right in front of the Black Gate beneath the earth. This marriage needs to be witnessed by a weirwood tree ya know?

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, I don’t think you need the spoiler tags.

Sorry that was a cheap trick. It makes my long post seem much shorter. Shorter posts grabs attention more.

Also the spoiler tag is there in case people don't want to read it. Some people don't want to have the story accidentally spoiled, even if it is a theory. Some people think they have the integrity to wait until TWOW comes out ... but who knows when it will come out.
Even if GRRM announces today that TWOW will be released six months from now ... people may get too excited and think they can hold off the urge of reading more theories ... until they break after realizing six months is a really really really long time.

But yeah, it was initially a cheap trick lol

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https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/books/story/2020-07-29/george-rr-martin-winds-of-winter-not-finished-imprison-him

If I don’t have ‘The Winds of Winter’ in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for Worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done,” wrote Martin in a Not A Blog post in 2019.

___________________

Definitely on to 2021.  Maybe he'll make it an even decade.

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On 8/1/2020 at 9:51 AM, Cas Stark said:

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/books/story/2020-07-29/george-rr-martin-winds-of-winter-not-finished-imprison-him

If I don’t have ‘The Winds of Winter’ in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for Worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done,” wrote Martin in a Not A Blog post in 2019.

___________________

Definitely on to 2021.  Maybe he'll make it an even decade.

We can't imprison him because we aren't allowed to come within 2 meters of him in order to social distance.

On another note, I was listening to a couple of ASOIAF podcasts today.  One of them was summarizing predictions for what would happen in the Riverlands in TWOW.  After about an hour of listening, I realized I just don't give a shit anymore about predicting and theorizing about what will happen in TWOW.  In fact, at this point, I hope George changes the title of the book, because the only two things I can associate with TWOW is continuous disappointment at it not being released, and fans over-theorizing.

The other podcast was addressing George not meeting the deadline.  A good point made in the podcast, and one that I had not really thought about before, is that both AFFC and ADWD are incomplete books.  They build up to some major events occurring (ie. Stannis vs the Boltons), but none of them occur.

Do these books even have events that would be considered a climax?  AGOT has Ned's execution, ACOK has the Battle of Blackwater, ASOS has Tyrion killing Tywin.  What would even be considered to be the major events of those two books?  Jon's assassination?  Cersei's walk of shame?  Seems like everything is left on a cliffhanger.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Do these books even have events that would be considered a climax?  AGOT has Ned's execution, ACOK has the Battle of Blackwater, ASOS has Tyrion killing Tywin.  What would even be considered to be the major events of those two books?  Jon's assassination?  Cersei's walk of shame?  Seems like everything is left on a cliffhanger.

agree that's the worst thing. No fucking way will the series end in two novels. If it takes ten years to write Winds that only means the story has gotten bigger, not smaller. 

Edited by Jekse

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15 hours ago, Rubicante said:

We can't imprison him because we aren't allowed to come within 2 meters of him in order to social distance.

On another note, I was listening to a couple of ASOIAF podcasts today.  One of them was summarizing predictions for what would happen in the Riverlands in TWOW.  After about an hour of listening, I realized I just don't give a shit anymore about predicting and theorizing about what will happen in TWOW.  In fact, at this point, I hope George changes the title of the book, because the only two things I can associate with TWOW is continuous disappointment at it not being released, and fans over-theorizing.

The other podcast was addressing George not meeting the deadline.  A good point made in the podcast, and one that I had not really thought about before, is that both AFFC and ADWD are incomplete books.  They build up to some major events occurring (ie. Stannis vs the Boltons), but none of them occur.

Do these books even have events that would be considered a climax?  AGOT has Ned's execution, ACOK has the Battle of Blackwater, ASOS has Tyrion killing Tywin.  What would even be considered to be the major events of those two books?  Jon's assassination?  Cersei's walk of shame?  Seems like everything is left on a cliffhanger.

Me neither.  I have zero belief that he will finish the series, it seems clear that something went terribly wrong with Winds so I don't have much hope it will return to form, so it doesn't hold that much interest for me.

No, they don't, I don't even consider Feast as a real novel, because other than Cersei's arc, the rest of them are a random collection of chapters where random stuff happens.  More happens in Dance, but there is no real resolution or overriding theme even.

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Posted (edited)

Honestly, I hate to say it, but after Cancel Culture tried to put down GRRM over his Hugo Award presentation, TWOW won't be coming any time soon.

The TWOW Prologue itself will be very masculine and Cancel Culture will hate it.

I can see GRRM delaying TWOW intentionally as a FU to this over-entitled generation.

Edited by The Map Guy

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4 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Honestly, I hate to say it, but after Cancel Culture tried to put down GRRM over his Hugo Award presentation, TWOW won't be coming any time soon.

The TWOW Prologue itself will be very masculine and Cancel Culture will hate it.

I can see GRRM delaying TWOW intentionally as a FU to this over-entitled generation.

I would hope George is not so petty as to do that. And if he is, then he deserves to be cancelled.

Whatever your opinion of the incident, people have a right to criticise him when they genuinely believe he's acted inappropriately. Nerd worship can't be all he gets.

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15 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I would hope George is not so petty as to do that. And if he is, then he deserves to be cancelled.

Whatever your opinion of the incident, people have a right to criticise him when they genuinely believe he's acted inappropriately. Nerd worship can't be all he gets.

I did a quick look over what the other people problems were with GRRM.

Apparently if you mispronounce ethnic names ... you are labeled a racist.
Apparently if you talk about authors you grew up reading, and those authors happened to be racist ... you are labeled a racist too.
Apparently if you call the Oscar award trophy a "golden eunuch" ... you are accused of harboring transgender hate.

I don't know.

But GRRM has things we want ... TWOW and ADOS. And to go smash him for all these petty things seems ... petty.

Its like a grand-son/daughter accusing their grandfather/mother that they grew up in a racist era and they are racist themselves. They think they are great grandsons/daughters for calling out their grandparents ... until they realized they were intentionally left out of their wealthy will. Well great job, you sure showed them!

GRRM doesn't need other people's ideas shoved down his throat. ASOIAF is his story and no one else. If you piss him off, he has the rights to delay TWOW if he wants, and he'll get the last laugh. Great job Cancel Culture, you sure showed him!


Some potential TWOW Prologue spoilers ... careful ... it may offend people:

Spoiler

 

The chapter will potentially involve a tactic of using empty nooses hung from trees ... as a hoax, as an act of creating fear in the hearts of the Lannisters, as a wild goose chase.

Most people would find that plan to be awesome, and it is a great start for TWOW as the Prologue would make readers laugh and cry. It will be a Top-5 Chapter in ASOIAF series for most people.

And then there are other people reading it ... a noose hoax???? Cancel Culture would be like "WTF IS THIS????? THIS IS THE MOST RACIST THING EVER. IS GRRM MAKING FUN OF US???? CANCEL THIS BOOK!!!!!!"

Well GRRM had this chapter planned since 1996. George in 2019 was probably saying "F U Justin Smollett! Stop stealing my ideas!"

 

 

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On 8/5/2020 at 5:43 AM, The Map Guy said:

Honestly, I hate to say it, but after Cancel Culture tried to put down GRRM over his Hugo Award presentation, TWOW won't be coming any time soon.

The TWOW Prologue itself will be very masculine and Cancel Culture will hate it.

I can see GRRM delaying TWOW intentionally as a FU to this over-entitled generation.

What happened?

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3 hours ago, Pdor said:

What happened?

Cancel Culture ... just some naturally angry people looking for something to be angry about, venting out by bullying famous people to conform to their own standards, as a form of dopamine and attention seeking.

For example: https://www.pretty-terrible.com/george-r-r-martin-2020-hugo-awards/
You can thank people like her (or him ... whatever it prefers) if GRRM is too pissed off to release TWOW to the type of world we live in today, since it would offend certain people that may harass him.

Here is another article:
https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/books/a33532809/george-rr-martin-hugo-awards-2020-controversy-explained/

 

But we want GRRM's books, we want his stories and his ideas as a form of entertainment, not a source of social justice. Who cares about 2020 Earth, we want Westeros and Essos 300 AC and 301 AC. LET THE MAN WRITE HIS BOOK IN PEACE!

Potential TWOW Prologue Spoilers

Spoiler

 

"From this day to the ending of the world, we in it shall be remembered. We few. We brave few. We band of brothers, for he today that sheds his blood with me, shall be by brother!"
A roar of cheer exploded in the air, loud and thunderous.
As soon as it all died down, Mormont proclaimed " -- and sister too!"
"Well Maege, we always considered you as our brother. You have larger sacs between your legs than most men, especially the Lannisters and their crippled honor."
"That is easy to say, all those Lannisters are a bunch of golden eunuchs!" she replied.
 

Cancel Culture: THAT IS SEXIST! THAT IS TRANSPHOBIC! THIS IS TOO PATRIOTIC! CANCEL COCK JOKES! CANCEL GRRM!!! AND CANCEL SHAKESPEARE WHILE WE ARE AT IT!!

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Cancel Culture ... just some naturally angry people looking for something to be angry about, venting out by bullying famous people to conform to their own standards, as a form of dopamine and attention seeking.

For example: https://www.pretty-terrible.com/george-r-r-martin-2020-hugo-awards/
You can thank people like her (or him ... whatever it prefers) if GRRM is too pissed off to release TWOW to the type of world we live in today, since it would offend certain people that may harass him.

I completely disagree with you, and your posts on cancel culture do not reflect my view.

The idea that someone should not be challenged because they might withhold something that you want is wrong.  If people feel that someone should be challenged about what they are saying on their platform or due to their platform, it is legitimate and shouldn’t be trivialised.
 

Being an apologist for someone’s behaviour because you think that will prevent you from getting something that you want - I invite you to reflect on your post and how it comes across.

This is a forum, and there will always be different views and discourse around a number of topics, but for me, the above post is moving towards offensive.

George has apologised for the Hugo’s and I hope that he has reflected on the criticism.  As a professional, I am sure that it will have no impact on his ability to deliver the next book in his series.

Edited by Loras

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Posted (edited)
On 8/3/2020 at 11:45 PM, Rubicante said:

The other podcast was addressing George not meeting the deadline.  A good point made in the podcast, and one that I had not really thought about before, is that both AFFC and ADWD are incomplete books.  They build up to some major events occurring (ie. Stannis vs the Boltons), but none of them occur.

Do these books even have events that would be considered a climax?  AGOT has Ned's execution, ACOK has the Battle of Blackwater, ASOS has Tyrion killing Tywin.  What would even be considered to be the major events of those two books?  Jon's assassination?  Cersei's walk of shame?  Seems like everything is left on a cliffhanger.

Correction. A Dance with Dragons is an "incomplete" book. A Feast for Crows is complete.

And yes both of these books do have a climax. They may not be the type of climax that you like or that you expect from ASOIAF but both Feast and Dance have climaxes.

Feast has Cersei's arrest, Brienne's encounter with Lady Stoneheart, Jaime's return to Riverrun, Arya's blindness, Sansa leaving the Eyrie, Arianne's discovery of her father's pro-Targaryen plot, etc. All are climaxes that have their own resolutions. Could the two Cersei chapters and the oneshot Jaime chapter in Dance been put in Feast. Yes? Should they have been? That's up for debate. But even without them, Feast is complete.

Dance has Jon's assassination, Daenerys' flight from Meereen, Theon's escape from Winterfell, Quentyn's attempt to tame the dragons, JonCon's return to Griffin's Roost, Tyrion's arrival at Meereen, Asha's reunion with Theon, Stannis' army being stuck in a snowstorm, Arya becoming an acolyte of the Faceless Men....all of these are climaxes.

Granted, Dance is incomplete and should have included:

  • given that the title of the book is A Dance with Dragons, the Battle of Meereen (aka the battle with the dragons) should have been fought and won or fought and lost by the end of the book. Either or. The Battle of Winterfell wasn't ready to commence in Dance nor would it fit...all the more so for the Battle of the Redwyne Straits and the Battle of Storm's End
  • Arianne should have met Aegon--or at least arrived at Storm's End
  • the Sansa sample chapter where she meets Harry the Heir and comes up with the idea of a tourney of the Winged Knights should've been easily included

But all in all, it's a good book. Maybe in the future, we'll get an revised edition where either Feast and Dance are merged or where Dance has the Battle of Meereen and the trip to Aegon included.

In any case, I feel like you are mostly disappointed with Dance because you didn't get the Baratheon/Bolton battle.

Edited by BlackLightning

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Posted (edited)

@Loras I don't get you. First you decry with unabated contempt something that feels, to you, somehow offensive. But then, you proceed with a number of unproven assertions that hardly address the issue and call out for @The Map Guy's silence in a way that does, ironically, remind one of cancel culture. Are you against free speech? or, perhaps, are you invoking the eggshell skull principle as a way to argue that things you find offensive shouldn't be voiced? Whether or not The Map Guy's justifications support his position, that says very little about the value of his position per se... I, for one, still don't know why you disagree with said position? why you think a cost-benefit analysis of the usefulness of criticizing GRRM's behavior is "out of the question?" why you think the post might be offensive to you or other people in the first place? why you think GRRM publicly apologizing (perhaps as a favor to Worldcon organizers) is indicative of his genuine remorse? why "professionalism" would "for sure" prevent GRRM's morale and focus being negatively affected? why you think criticizing someone's alleged offensiveness on a TWOW 2021 thread is even remotely appropriate? I do hope in the future people like The Map Guy will remain able to express their opinions, and that people like you and I will remain able to challenge their argumentation, yes, but never will I advocate for silence as a way to settle or set aside debates, and certainly not on the basis of my personal ability to be offended. Therefore, I would likewise, and respectfully, invite you to reflect on your own message and the atmosphere it might ultimately bring down on these forums as well.

As for me, besides the "scandal", I wonder if the true obstacle to GRRM's progress wasn't agreeing to act as toastmaster in the first place? Yet another distraction in a long string of distractions, that doesn't properly constitute a side-project (such as, say, editing would), yes, but is nonetheless distracting. Alas!

Edited by BreakinTheWall
Spelling++

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Posted (edited)
Quote

The pandemic is not over.   We are deep in the midst of the predicted second wave.   And who knows how many more surges will follow this one?   Too many, unless more of us do a better job of staying in quarantine and wearing our masks.

New Mexico has done a much better job with Covid-19 than most of the surrounding states, thanks in large part to our amazing governor Michelle Lujan Grisham.  But numbers are rising here too.

I don’t know how long this will last.   We just had our first virtual worldcon, and I cannot even say for sure that DC next summer will not turn out to be our second.   All I know for sure is that I am headed back into my own quarantine… and whenever I go out, I will be wearing a mask.

^ From his latest blog post. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but second wave? I didn't think the US had gotten past the first wave. 

Silver lining = more quarantine equals more writing, I guess? 

Edited by Donnycarko

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21 hours ago, Loras said:

I completely disagree with you, and your posts on cancel culture do not reflect my view.

That is cool. This entire forum is about people agreeing and disagreeing with each other. As long as we can attack the ideas and not the person, it is all civil.

21 hours ago, Loras said:

The idea that someone should not be challenged because they might withhold something that you want is wrong.

This is a classic case of entitlement.
Thinking you deserve something from someone, even though you publicly criticize that person is what is wrong with people nowadays.
ASOIAF is not a public service and GRRM is not your bitch. The series is a private collection of work owned by a single author. If you don't like the author, don't buy his books. When TWOW comes out, and you still have a grudge against his comments, then don't buy his books.
If GRRM feels like he doesn't want to ever release TWOW and ADOS, that is his right.

If you felt you received some bullshit from someone, you have two options ... call them out immediately, or swallow your pride & move on (future vendetta optional).
Just think about the consequences of each first.

21 hours ago, Loras said:

If people feel that someone should be challenged about what they are saying on their platform or due to their platform, it is legitimate and shouldn’t be trivialised.

Agreed.

But Cancel Culture does not represent everyone's views. They only represent their own views.
I don't know how you guys are doing out there in Scotland, but Cancel Culture is a virus here in an America.
People lost jobs over the tiniest things, sometimes not even by political views, but by an overreaction over a misunderstanding.
Some poor Hispanic man was driving by a protest and cracked his knuckles. It looked like the shape of a racist hand-gesture ... he was fired from his job after Cancel Culture posted a single screenshot frame of a video online.

So back to GRRM. What did he do?

  • mispronounced names of the nominees, at his home without any staff
  • talked about authors he grew up with
  • calling the Oscar trophy a  "golden eunuch"

Cancel Culture's response:
"In conclusion, let us shoot George R.R. Martin and Bob Silverberg into the sun where they shall bother us no longer."

Its not like GRRM intentionally had a malicious agenda and carried a sign that said "I hate transsexuals!"

And now guess what ... this "golden eunuch" was to be a homage to the Hugo Awards Ceremony in TWOW.
As readers read the TWOW Prologue and laugh at the joke ... anyone who attended the Hugo Ceremony in 2020 should of been "Ohhhhhhhh!! That is a shout out to us!!! That is awesome!!" But now GRRM's "golden eunuch" transforms into a transphobic symbol. Will GRRM re-write it? Or keep it? We'll see.

21 hours ago, Loras said:

Being an apologist for someone’s behaviour because you think that will prevent you from getting something that you want - I invite you to reflect on your post and how it comes across.

How does it come across?

21 hours ago, Loras said:

This is a forum, and there will always be different views and discourse around a number of topics, but for me, the above post is moving towards offensive.

Good. They can have a taste of their own medicine. I'm offended by Cancel Culture's message. Am I not allowed my freedom of speech to criticize Cancel Culture and the naturally angry people in the group? Because that is the ironically what they are trying to do BUT WITH getting people fired from their jobs. Changing people's lives by getting them fired from their jobs gives these naturally angry people a high.

21 hours ago, Loras said:

George has apologised for the Hugo’s and I hope that he has reflected on the criticism.  As a professional, I am sure that it will have no impact on his ability to deliver the next book in his series.

Haha. Cancel Culture is pathetic. Just because people apologize publicly and swear fealty, doesn't mean they have to mean it and conform to it. GRRM is the creator of Wyman Manderly after all.

12 hours ago, BreakinTheWall said:

As for me, besides the "scandal", I wonder if the true obstacle to GRRM's progress wasn't agreeing to act as toastmaster in the first place? Yet another distraction in a long string of distractions, that doesn't properly constitute a side-project (such as, say, editing would), yes, but is nonetheless distracting. Alas!

Seriously! GRRM took his time from writing TWOW or ADOS to entertain a crowd at the award ceremony. Being an emcee is not easy. Being an emcee without a staff is much much harder. And this is the thanks he gets?

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