Larry of the Lawn Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 25 minutes ago, Ran said: You know, I'll just say it, Blake shouldn't have gone into the car when the police told him not to. He wasn't thinking straight. But he didn't deserve to be shot until there was a clear and unambiguous threat, and the situation wouldn't have gotten to that level of tension if the police knew what they were doing. Slate had a good piece on the bullshit they teach police which is a huge part of the problem. I mean, this is what the law and the courts are going to end up doing. They will go over everything. People talking about the legal outcome kind of have to make an effort to understand the course of events if they want to opine about them. I'm not sure why you would want to talk about a situation without being informed about it, or why it frustrates you when others do. I think you're misunderstanding the post - no one is complaining about the fact that the videos and cases are being analyzed. The point is that it's illuminating to see people trying to find some reason the black guy did something wrong in one case and to find some justification for the white shooter in the other. Which is the entire reason these protests are happening: police and the justice system treat black people worse. I seriously doubt that the post you quoted was making the argument that it would be better to be uninformed and acting from ignorance. These cases happened a week apart in the same town. Very different treatment from the police, one armed, one not armed, one white, one black. And people are jumping through hoops to exonerate Rittenhouse, while trying to show some culpability on the part of Blake in his own shooting. There is a bias in the construction of these narratives and it's clear as day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 Yes, think about that point - in the same town. Police were afraid a black man had a knife so they shot him 7 times in the back. The same police in the same town had a white youth carrying an AR-15 type weapon walk up to them and did they do anything? Ask him to put the weapon down, lie spreadeagled on the ground? They drove away. Oh, let me guess, it’s because he had his hands up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 I can well believe it, but at the same time a scroll through Reddit can show the exact same thing happening from the opposite perspective: finding everything possible to show the police acted in the wrong with Blake and Blake did no wrong, and finding everything possible to show Rittenhouse acted in the wrong and the protesters did no wrong. I guess it''s no great surprise that the divide is largely left/right on these things, and certainly any attempt to take away all or even the majority of the responsibility from the people with the guns is absurd. Honestly, some of the observations made by commentators these last couple of weeks have me in a funk about the state of the United States. Particularly the piece someone (Week maybe) linked earlier from Vox about the idea that Republicans and their supporters have realized that they no longer care about ethical norms and will no longer be adhering to them. I don't know how the country is going to get out of the obvious spiral it's in. Electing Biden will just be the very start of a very long, very hard road. I also just saw some polling about how support for BLM in rural Wisconsin shifted dramatically over the course of a couple of months: May not impact party switching, per se, but could conceivably effect turn out. High BLM support might have led Republicans to lose enthusiasm for voting, whereas high BLM opposition will probably increase enthusiasm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Ran said: Honestly, some of the observations made by commentators these last couple of weeks have me in a funk about the state of the United States. Particularly the piece someone (Week maybe) linked earlier from Vox about the idea that Republicans and their supporters have realized that they no longer care about ethical norms and will no longer be adhering to them. I don't know how the country is going to get out of the obvious spiral it's in. Electing Biden will just be the very start of a very long, very hard road. I also just saw some polling about how support for BLM in rural Wisconsin shifted dramatically over the course of a couple of months I believe I quoted that Vox piece wherein it indicates that all GOP voters care about is defeating the Dems rather than any actual policy goals. I wouldn't say that's the start of such a long hard road. It would take a super-powered rearview mirror to be able to look back and find when we turned on that road. If I was to writeup an abstract for a paper/book on the subject, I'd probably emphasize the inflection point was when McConnell (basically) publicly admitted the GOP's overarching goal was to defeat Obama in 2012. Not to find a way to govern based on their principles, or even to obstruct vehemently based on their principles - just simply to beat the other guy. That is the nature of negative partisanship. For all their (many many) faults, even Gingrich, Hastert, Lott, Frist, nor Delay led that way. As for the degrading support for BLM among whites, yes, this is observable. But it's also fairly predictable and a durable result of political attitudes. Even the most influential events rarely have a long-term effect on the public's political attitudes/behavior - the numbers will reliably regress to the mean within a couple months at most. The silver lining is due to polarization/negative partisanship, as well as Biden's "return to normalcy" message and presence, support for BLM or even whites' attitudes on racism is fairly orthoganal to Biden's electoral chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 18 minutes ago, DMC said: I believe I quoted that Vox piece wherein it indicates that all GOP voters care about is defeating the Dems rather than any actual policy goals. I wouldn't say that's the start of such a long hard road. It would take a super-powered rearview mirror to be able to look back and find when we turned on that road. If I was to writeup an abstract for a paper/book on the subject, I'd probably emphasize the inflection point was when McConnell (basically) publicly admitted the GOP's overarching goal was to defeat Obama in 2012. Not to find a way to govern based on their principles, or even to obstruct vehemently based on their principles - just simply to beat the other guy. That is the nature of negative partisanship. For all their (many many) faults, even Gingrich, Hastert, Lott, Frist, nor Delay led that way. Don't let that slimy fuck off the hook. He's the one that really kick started the "own the libs" political strategy, which sough to not just defeat, but humiliate his political opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 Just now, Tywin et al. said: Don't let that slimy fuck off the hook. He's the one that really kick started the "own the libs" political strategy, which sough to not just defeat, but humiliate his political opponents. Sure. But he also actually worked with Clinton. It's weird looking back on the nineties political landscape with fond nostalgia, but I can't help but do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, DMC said: Sure. But he also actually worked with Clinton. It's weird looking back on the nineties political landscape with fond nostalgia, but I can't help but do so. I understand the sentiment. I look back on the year of the H1N1 flu the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 54 minutes ago, DMC said: Sure. But he also actually worked with Clinton. It's weird looking back on the nineties political landscape with fond nostalgia, but I can't help but do so. You're only allowed to look back on the nineties political landscape with fond nostalgia if you also picture your current self in nineties clothing. Thems the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 Just now, Tywin et al. said: You're only allowed to look back on the nineties political landscape with fond nostalgia if you also picture your current self in nineties clothing. Thems the rules. That just makes it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 In the 90s I was never allowed to get JNCO’s because they were too expensive. These days when I see old photos of my friends whose parents indulged them, I thank Christ for frugal parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 Donald Trump is trying to help out Susan Collins in Maine, and himself, of course. He's opened an investigation into the impact of Canada's lobster industry on the US lobster industry. Canada negotiated a free trade agreement with the EU under which lobster enters duty-free. The US demanded that the 8% duty on US lobster be dropped as well, without any treaty. The EU complied. The biggest impact was the 35% duty China imposed on US lobster, which has been dropped under the current mini-deal that was made. The Canadian lobster industry picked up the slack. My initial reaction is that the biggest impact has been Trump's trade wars. But God only knows, by next month Trump may be slapping 10% or 20% or 30% duties on Canadian lobster as retaliation. Fuck NAFTA 2, right? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/trump-turns-an-election-year-eye-on-canadian-lobster-1.5704491 Here's the US government press release, which points to the CETA trade agreement's treatment of Canadian lobster. I bet they'll find that negotiated free trade agreements that don't involve the US are unfair to the US and the countries have to be punished. The EU dropped their tariff, so I bet the US punishes Canada once again. https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2020/er0824ll1637.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, S John said: In the 90s I was never allowed to get JNCO’s because they were too expensive. These days when I see old photos of my friends whose parents indulged them, I thank Christ for frugal parents. I had to look those up. I don't think they made an impact in Canada, thank God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 Sorry for posting yet again, but you should watch Sen. Ron Johnson of Wisconsin being interviewed on State of the Union on CNN. He was refusing to allow the interviewer, Dana Bash, to ask her questions, he was refusing to condemn Rittenhouse killing two people until it finally got dragged out of him. Then they played campaign Trump saying that from Jan. 21, 2017, he would protect the citizens of the US from violence and that any government that failed to do so was not worthy of governing. Johnson is denying that Trump failed there. Once again I am seeing another Republican talking over an interviewer and trying to shut down qurestions. It seems to be the instruction to all Republicans, if they can't get their quesion out you won't have to answer. Oh....China wants Biden to be the next president! We need Bingo cards for the next 66 days! eta: The Lincoln Project should do a commercial of that Trump speech, words from the horse's mouth that a president who doesn't protect citizens from violence is unworthy to govern. Play it on a loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 57 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: trying to shut down qurestions. I think qurestions could be the next alternative facts. 58 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Oh....China wants Biden to be the next president! We need Bingo cards for the next 66 days! Well, they do, but the point is the reason they want Biden to win is because Trump is just THAT incompetent and unstable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 1 hour ago, S John said: In the 90s I was never allowed to get JNCO’s because they were too expensive. These days when I see old photos of my friends whose parents indulged them, I thank Christ for frugal parents. Depends which part of the 90s. Early 90s red or green pair of jeans (yes, ty, you are entitled to laugh to your hearts content), and plaid/flannel shirt. Hipster, before there was such a thing. Mit 90s to late 90s hoodies, late 90s add changing hair colours (red, yellow, also blue at some point I think). I never went mohawk tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 5 hours ago, Ran said: I mean, this is what the law and the courts are going to end up doing. They will go over everything. People talking about the legal outcome kind of have to make an effort to understand the course of events if they want to opine about them. I'm not sure why you would want to talk about a situation without being informed about it, or why it frustrates you when others do. @larrytheimp already hit the nail on the head, but I just want to confirm that I have absolutely no problem with thorough analysis. It’s the obvious inconsistency/hypocrisy that deeply bothers me. 4 hours ago, Ran said: I can well believe it, but at the same time a scroll through Reddit can show the exact same thing happening from the opposite perspective: finding everything possible to show the police acted in the wrong with Blake and Blake did no wrong, and finding everything possible to show Rittenhouse acted in the wrong and the protesters did no wrong. I guess it''s no great surprise that the divide is largely left/right on these things, and certainly any attempt to take away all or even the majority of the responsibility from the people with the guns is absurd. I’d say that arguing an unarmed man who got shot 7 times in the back by police did nothing wrong while at the same time arguing that a guy armed with an assault rifle who killed 2 people did do something wrong is not as inconsistent as you may think. It’s certainly a hell of a lot more consistent than arguing the opposite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 46 minutes ago, DMC said: Well, they do, but the point is the reason they want Biden to win is because Trump is just THAT incompetent and unstable. It is truly insane that the Chinese government is trying to do the American people a solid by trying to get us to not elect an insane person as President again...and that we still might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 11 hours ago, DMC said: Typical Dem hand-wringing. This is not going to change the tonnage of disgust educated whites have for Trump. And even the gains the Dems made in 2018 compared to 2016 among uneducated whites, I doubt it's going to change their approval/favorability of Trump or Biden, both of which are pretty well entrenched. I agree with you here; there's a pretty simple solution: just condemn the violence on both sides. Republicans are bending over backwards right now to avoid condemning Rittenhouse because it'll turn off their base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fury Resurrected Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: You're only allowed to look back on the nineties political landscape with fond nostalgia if you also picture your current self in nineties clothing. Thems the rules. The only real difference to how I dress now and how I dressed then is the plaid bondage pants. I probably still have most of the band tshirts I had at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindwalker Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/us/portland-trump-rally-shooting.html A man affiliated with a right-wing group was shot and killed Saturday as a large group of supporters of President Trump traveled in a caravan through downtown Portland, Ore., which has had nightly protests for three consecutive months. The pro-Trump rally drew hundreds of trucks full of supporters into the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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