US Politics: Talk Radio Ravings and Other Mindless Mouthing

[Guy Kilmore]

I don't know how using an illegally obtained gun doesn't invalidate WI's self defense law.  I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it sound. https://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2014/chapter-939/section-939.48

[Ran]

15 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I don't know how using an illegally obtained gun doesn't invalidate WI's self defense law.  I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it sound. https://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2014/chapter-939/section-939.48

The relevant section is:

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939.48(2)(a) (a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. In such a case, the person engaging in the unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self-defense, but the person is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely to cause death to the person's assailant unless the person reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant.

939.48(2)(b) (b) The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate notice thereof to his or her assailant.

939.48(2)(c) (c) A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.

Is his unlawful open carry of a stolen/borrowed weapon something "likely to provoke others to attack him"? As Rosenbaum had no way of knowing Rittenhouse had done anything illegal, and so believed him to be lawfully openly carrying, it can't be the case that the unlawful conduct is what provoked the attack. And in general, Wisconsin being an open-carry state, it can't be that open carry in itself can be construed as provocation according to the law.

Then the question is merely did he exhaust reasonable means to escape.

[HoodedCrow]

My home had guns. The very first thing I was taught was don’t point it at someone ever, not ,here,  just in case you need protection...For that I was taught some Judo:)

Lesson number two was showing me that the gun can look empty but not be, and don’t ever assume it is empty. These lessons were preschool! Thanks, Dad.

The 17 year seems immature, and just the sort of person who would be vulnerable to the right wing promotion of violence. He reminds me of the Boston Marathon younger brother. Without the violent older brother, nothing would have happened. The shootings last week wouldn’t have happened without Trump and the gun culture radicalizing him. But now what? They are both murderers, and the harm is extreme and permanent. 

How can it be possible that it is a good idea for random civilians to meet up with guns at a protest? Guns whose only value there would be to intimidate, threaten or harm?  It seems about as smart as guns on college campuses( solution for failing grades or romantic problems) or in classrooms. Hahaha, I got Mr Cotter’s gun?  What the heck. All this with a racial nightmare.

It doesn’t have to be this way?

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

He will hopefully grow out of it, probably after time in a correctional facility, but I thought it was some sort of militant violence you were talking about. Being a stan for the orange buffoon doesn't necessarily mean you want to kill people.

But there's a good chance it does. Want and will are different though.

Also, you are aware of the origin of the term stan, right?

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If their accounts are objectively accurate. Fuck if I know what teenagers consider freaking out to be. Having been a high school student, half of what teenagers say about one another is bullshit.

Half is probably selling low, but all you see is his classmates talking negatively about him. So many have come forward and say various forms of they're not surprised at all by this. You don't see anyone praising this murderer other than Tucker Carlson's punk ass.
 

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I can totally accept he is all in on Trump. Thank god he's too young to vote.

But he was old enough to kill.....

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A fact I point out merely to show that the simplistic narrative that he went out there to shoot people doesn't work, and the prosecutors can't rely on that if they want to disprove self-defense. All this stuff about illegal open carry and being underage means bad judgment and the horrors of US gun culture, but in and of itself the fact that he spent more time trying to help protesters  than anything else caught on camera will complicate the case for the prosecution. 

No it won't. If you rob a bank, but before hand you helped someone outside of it, you still robbed a bank. There was premeditation to bring a deadly weapon to a protest. Nobody cares if he stopped and helped people before he started killing people.

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Not according to the law in Wisconsin for self-defense claims, which I presume is what his defense will be. 

 His word verse a crowd, and they didn't kill anyone. 

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There were, actually, several protesters with pistols who were not part of the militia group. You can see them in the gasoline station confrontation, hear one in Koerri Elijah's video talking about how he was ready to shoot if the militia did, and Gaige Grosskreutz did as well.

"Looking for trouble" suggests he was hoping to get into a confrontation. Yet when Rosenbaum jogs over to him for whatever reason, McGinnis says -- and the video later shows -- that he ran away from him.

I've only seen one, and the firearm appears to have came out after kiddo shot someone. 

And you don't bring an AR-15 to a rally if you're not looking to start some shit. Just because he learned the hard way that he's a coward doesn't undo his intent. 

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No, the video clearly shows police were telling him that he could not go back to the other dealership where he had originally intended to post himself, and pointed him to go the other way, which is where he went.

Obviously, police were advising everyone to go home because it was after curfew, but people seem to hold little opinion of police curfews.

I've seen it reported that he was told to go home/leave.
 

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I'd be curious to a source. All the photos I've seen prior to the shootings always have the gun at his side or pointed downward, not brandished.

He was described as being antagonistic with it by some bystanders who've been interviewed.

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Some non-militia people did go there with the same mindset, bringing guns to protect themselves from police, militia folk, perhaps other, more violent protesters. The question is not did they think they might end up shooting someone, but did they hope to shoot someone and/or did they try to provoke a situation where they'd shoot someone.

Who brings an AR-15 from out of state to a protest just to chill? You're asking a lot here for one to assume that he didn't in part what shit to go down so he could play with his gun.
 

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But this again goes back to the questions of what happened with Rosenbaum and what followed. His knowing he shot someone from what he may have seen as self-defense doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to let people beat him up (as some shouted at him, and tried to do).  Like I said before, he could both be intending to get to the police  to tell them what happened and/or surrender himself and people could believe he was attempting to flee apprehension at the same time. 

But he didn't surrender. All reports I've seen says he told the police someone has been shot, not that he shot multiple people, and he left the state. He ran, because he knew he murdered someone. 

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Can't say I appreciate the aspersion in what has been an otherwise civil discussion.

That's how it's coming off man. You are sounding like his defense lawyer. For me this is pretty straight forward. He committed several crimes in the lead up to two people dying at his hands. I don't think there's a lot of nuance to this other than for the lawyers to determine if they want to charge him with counts of murder or manslaughter and to what degree. If he doesn't receive a long sentence, it will be a grievous miscarriage of justice. 

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This bigoted loner was offering help to people he's supposed to be bigoted against? That makes no sense to me, which is why I think some of the terms and some of the narratives about what happened are wrong.

Just to be clear, I think he should be punished. The reckless homicide, the reckless endangerment, carrying the weapon while under age. The first degree intentional homicide that started it all, I am significantly less certain about.

One can both be a bigot and have human interactions with someone they have bigoted views towards. He frankly was probably too young to fully comprehend his likely conflicting views. But what little we do know seems to indicate that he probably thinks pretty lowly, at best, of BLM protesters. It's kind of ironic that he ended up killing two white guys. 

[Guy Kilmore]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

The relevant section is:

Is his unlawful open carry of a stolen/borrowed weapon something "likely to provoke others to attack him"? As Rosenbaum had no way of knowing Rittenhouse had done anything illegal, and so believed him to be lawfully openly carrying, it can't be the case that the unlawful conduct is what provoked the attack. And in general, Wisconsin being an open-carry state, it can't be that open carry in itself can be construed as provocation according to the law.

Then the question is merely did he exhaust reasonable means to escape.

For the first one, arguably, but for the other two, no, that becomes much harder to prove.  And that is IF he demonstrates that his use of force was equivalent to the danger that he was in.  

Because he was violating orders to leave the area, he has transport an unregistered firearm across state lines, and he is not licensed to have that firearm in either state.  If he is found to be violating orders to leave the area and then this also construed, then you also have another illegal act that was the result that placed him in harm.

I guess I don't see it as open and shut as you do, which is the only reason I called it out.  Which is why we have a court system.

[DanteGabriel]

2 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yeah I don't buy the willing indifference/ignorance argument at this point anymore. You support, at this point, an open and clearly white supremacist, that makes  you a goddamn white supremacist.

Also, this thread moves FAST, but I saw some alpha/beta male bullshit being spouted somewhere, and if I am not mistaken, wasn't the idea of alpha/beta males in mammals pretty thoroughly scientifically debunked in the 90s? 

Yeah, that was @The Map Guy, prattling on about how a pudding-soft sack of cowardice like Trump is an alpha male, just because he was born white and rich in a country that bends itself over to coddle such people. Trump has been shielded his whole life,  by money and power that he never earned, from the consequences of his own actions -- and that somehow translates to the witless numbfucks under his well heeled lifts as bold manliness. I've long heard that New York people knew decades ago that Trump was a buffoon, but at least one self-proclaimed working class New Yorker bought into his grift.

The science behind "alpha" was debunked long ago, but Map Guy's understanding of the world seems frozen on the early 80s, with Reaganite "young bucks and welfare queens" type of rhetoric.

[Wall Flower]

7 hours ago, Zorral said:

So it has come to pass as one expected: white supremacist racist fascists see GOT as THEIR Bible. What tv wrought, because, you know, they would never read a BOOK that is as long the Got volumes.

They don't seem to realise that Tywin was supposed to be a villain and the Lannisters' toxic legacy nearly managed to destroy their country.

Personally, I tend to think that Fred Trump was Tywin, with the same dysfunctional family legacy, and Donald is Cersei - just with the privilege and sense of entitlement of being a man that enables him and lets him get away with so much. Donald definitely has the same narcissism, lack of empathy, vindictiveness, paranoia, incompetence and Daddy issues.

[DMC]

Trump to visit Kenosha on Tuesday:

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President Donald Trump will travel to Kenosha, Wisconsin, on Tuesday to meet with law enforcement and to survey some of the damage from the recent protests, the White House announced Saturday evening.

Oh joy.  I like how they equate it to visiting the aftermath of a hurricane.  Fucking fucks.

[ants]

On 8/29/2020 at 3:24 AM, Simon Steele said:

This is a false narrative, and I think you probably know that. Young voters DID come out for Sanders, but not in high enough numbers to matter. 15 to 20 percent of voters were under 30 years old, but they overwhelming went for Sanders. That is a huge population of people who got out and voted. And that's a huge number of people you want voting for Biden in November, so don't be dismissive of them. Again, they are a significant number, and if anyone could fuck things up in November (by not voting or voting third party), it's this group. Outreach to them is more important than outreach to "Biden Republicans." 

No, it is not a false narrative.  Bernie won the youth vote hands down.  But they didn't come out in materially higher numbers than they ever did.  There have been links posted from Sanders' campaign team lamenting that fact. 

I would argue that anyone who was engaged enough to already vote, will vote against Trump.  Student loans are IMO something you mention in the primaries, keep quiet as fuck about in the election, and then if you have all three houses do while running.  It is not something to tout during the general, as it will piss off right-leaning moderates and right wingers, and the main targets won't bother to come out to vote for you if they weren't already.  

But then, I've often said that a good way of losing an election is giving out too much detail about your policies.  

That said, I think the Dems are missing a beat not focussing more on several key policies and their economic credentials.  They seem to be falling into the trap of 2016 of focussing on Trump is bad.  Everyone knows what Trump is, that ain't moving the dial one whit.  I'm just saying I wouldn't go into details, and for anything which will be red meat to the right wing I'd keep mum about and just do after getting elected (assuming I had the votes to get any legislation passed).  

[ants]

On 8/29/2020 at 1:50 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yeah, you kind of do.

No, you don't.  You only have to believe abortion is murder and your #1, line in the sand issue.  

[ThinkerX]

Trump supporter shot, apparently by protesters, in Portland.  Not looking good.

Side note.  These continual demonstrations and riots if left unchecked will have a major negative effect on Biden's chances of winning the election.

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/1-person-shot-killed-near-downtown-portland-protests-saturday.html

A person was shot and killed in downtown Portland as dueling demonstrations — one a pro-Trump car caravan and another a counter-protest mounted by various opposing groups — unfolded late Saturday.

Portland police say the shooting occurred about 8:45 p.m. near Southwest Third Avenue and Alder Street. The agency did not say whether the incident was related to the demonstrations.

The person lay in the street as medics tended to what appeared to be two gunshot wounds. The body remained there after medics left. Next to the body was camouflage gear with infidel and thin blue line patches, which commonly indicate support for law enforcement. Police taped off the area.

A photo from the scene published by Getty Images showed the person wearing a hat with a Patriot Prayer logo. The far-right group has been at the center of multiple Portland demonstrations that often culminate in violent clashes.

Patriot Prayer leader Joey Gibson said he had also seen the photo of the person killed. He did not say whether he knew the person.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

Trump supporter shot, apparently by protesters, in Portland.  Not looking good.

Side note.  These continual demonstrations and riots if left unchecked will have a major negative effect on Biden's chances of winning the election.

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/1-person-shot-killed-near-downtown-portland-protests-saturday.html

 

 

Unfortunately this will also probably be used to justify Antifa, blm being labeled terrorist organization. The hundreds of murders, by the far right aren’t reason enough to call them a terrorist organization  though because...

 

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

These continual demonstrations and riots if left unchecked will have a major negative effect on Biden's chances of winning the election.

Typical Dem hand-wringing.  This is not going to change the tonnage of disgust educated whites have for Trump.  And even the gains the Dems made in 2018 compared to 2016 among uneducated whites, I doubt it's going to change their approval/favorability of Trump or Biden, both of which are pretty well entrenched.

[Durckad]

26 minutes ago, DMC said:

Typical Dem hand-wringing.  This is not going to change the tonnage of disgust educated whites have for Trump.  And even the gains the Dems made in 2018 compared to 2016 among uneducated whites, I doubt it's going to change their approval/favorability of Trump or Biden, both of which are pretty well entrenched.

I could certainly see it bolstering support for Trump amongst disaffected Republican voters that may not have otherwise voted this election,  but I admit I have no evidence to back this up other than my bullshit brain.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Durckad said:

I could certainly see it bolstering support for Trump amongst disaffected Republican voters that may not have otherwise voted this election,  but I admit I have no evidence to back this up other than my bullshit brain.

It could, but I very sadly doubt this will be the final say on police violence and the protesters.  Still got two months left, plenty of time for another cop(s) to shoot or kill another minority without any justification.

[ThinkerX]

Sign Wars. Biden signs vanishing in droves in some faraway land called 'Pennsylvania'  (don't we have one or two posters there?)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-latest-battlefield-in-a-heated-presidential-campaign-front-yards-bearing-biden-signs/ar-BB18vfoi?ocid=ob-fb-enus-580&fbclid=IwAR1UXx__DBB-COxd7AZr6OBI_104o2EKX4baBENToxTeHVrJAR6RxjUSrdc

 

Across Pennsylvania — especially in rural communities — tens of thousands of yard signs supporting Joe Biden have popped up as his fans try to replicate how President Trump showed his growing support in the state when he was campaigning in 2016. And, just as quickly, some of those signs have been vanishing.

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

Sign Wars. Biden signs vanishing in droves in some faraway land called 'Pennsylvania'  (don't we have one or two posters there?)

Thinking lawn signs is how you win elections - especially for a Democrat - is quite antiquated.  The key to Biden winning is running up the score in Philly, Pitt, Allentown, Scranton, Reading, and the burbs therein.  Lawn signs don't mean much there.  Especially when many people are trying to limit how much they leave their homes.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

You forgot Wilkes-Barre.

4 hours ago, DMC said:

It could, but I very sadly doubt this will be the final say on police violence and the protesters.  Still got two months left, plenty of time for another cop(s) to shoot or kill another minority without any justification.

Yep, the more traditional Republican college educated suburban voters, will look at the protests and place the blame for it at the feet of the racist in chief.

I still remain very cautiously optimistic about the prospects of ending that four year long nightmare in the oval office.

[Ser Reptitious]

Black guy gets killed on video: video is thoroughly analyzed down to the smallest detail to explain why he may have been at least partially to blame.

White guy shoots/kills multiple people on video: video is thoroughly analyzed down to the smallest detail to explain why he may have been at least partially justified.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Black guy gets killed on video: video is thoroughly analyzed down to the smallest detail to explain why he may have been at least partially to blame.

You know, I'll just say it, Blake shouldn't have gone into the car when the police told him not to. He wasn't thinking straight. But he didn't deserve to be shot until there was a clear and unambiguous threat, and the situation wouldn't have gotten to that level of tension if the police knew what they were doing. Slate had a good piece on the bullshit they teach police which is a huge part of the problem. 

2 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

White guy shoots/kills multiple people on video: video is thoroughly analyzed down to the smallest detail to explain why he may have been at least partially justified.

I mean, this is what the law and the courts are going to end up doing. They will go over everything. People talking about the legal outcome kind of have to make an effort to understand the course of events if they want to opine about them. I'm not sure why you would want to talk about a situation without being informed about it, or why it frustrates you when others do.