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What if Robert had not married Cersei

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I seriously doubt it. Robert didn’t seem to bring Lyanna up much.

He never did. Only while drunk. And only once (tho not entirely sure if only once), yet Cersei remembered it.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Part of the reason for his sleeping around was probably that Cersei refused to sleep with him. And he probably drank excessively in part to deal with her.

He was fathering bastard before the Rebellion, during the Rebellion (when she actually fought for the love of his life, Lyanna), and after too. Cersei, in one of her chapters makes clear that she never refused to sleep with him. At the beginning of their marriage, Robert regularly had her, but as time passed and Robert saw that she doesn't like him, he slowly reduced the amount of having sex with her wife so much that in the latest few years they've only been together once or twice a year. At least this is what Cersei says.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

My late husband loved the forest too." In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling. "Still, beauty can sometimes mask deadly danger," she warned the little queen. "Robert lost his life in the woods."

Go and hunt, Cersei had urged Robert, half a hundred times. My brother keeps me well protected.

"Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf had savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand... Robert told her she was cruel & mad. They fought for half the night, well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank.

Unlike Jaime, Cersei had interest in other people too, not just her own brother. Rhaegar, for example. However, a reason Cersei hates Robert is that he killed Rhaegar at the trident. So yes, she originally had a 'negative opinion' of him, but I'm sure Robert's behaviour didn't help this. Cersei claims that little did Robert care about her (probably because of Lyanna's recent death), and every single time he drank himself to the floor, he paid a visit to Cersei's bedchamber. It wasn't a pleasure to her, one can even call it rape. 

So no, Robert wasn't a victim. Cersei was, at the beginning of their marriage, altough she grow up to him in the matter of being a terrible person.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So no, Robert wasn't a victim. Cersei was, at the beginning of their marriage, altough she grow up to him in the matter of being a terrible person.

I would never call Cersei a victim. Their relationship was mutual abusive, no one here has said that Robert would ever be a loving husband to anyone, but the level of hate he and Cersei threw at each other is above and beyond.

What count in Robert's favor is that he has other relationships that aren't toxic, he gets along well with Renly, Barristan saw him as good knight, Ned and Jon loved him, Thoros was his drinking friend and so on... while with Cersei...Melara, Tyrion, Sansa, Tywin, Jaime, is all toxic.

At least is what makes me more sympathetic to Robert than Cersei.

Edited by Arthur Peres

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14 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I would never call Cersei a victim

Of course you won't ever call the Cersei we have a victim. But she wasn't always like this. She originally had a bad personality, but that gained a bigger control over her, just as drunking and whoring did with Robert, and made him the careless person we know.

17 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

What count in Robert's favor is that he has other relationships that aren't toxic, he gets along well with Renly, Barristan saw him as good knight, Ned and Jon loved him, Thoros was his drinking friend and so on... while with Cersei...Melara, Tyrion, Sansa, Tywin, Jaime, is all toxic.

We don't know if there ever was more between the two brothers than the courtesy of kinship. Not to mention that Renly gave a literal damn about his own brother's death and legacy. I mean, Roberr wasn't dead yet when Renly showed up at Ned with the idea of helping him sit on the Iron Throne.

Barristan saw him as a good knight. Why does that mean that the two had a relationship worth mentioning? Not to mention how Barristan saw Robert whoring and drinking for a decade, and altough he's a man who openly never judges the king (because he finds this psrt of his duty), he had a pretty stringent moral codex.

Ned and Jon loved him because once he was a brother to Ned, and a son to Jon Arryn. The fact that these people loved him doesn't mean their relationship eith him was all right. It was nowhere allright. I mean, you can still have a toxic relationship with your parents, altough they love you, and you love them back. The presence of love doesn't mean it's working.

Thoros, on the other hand wasn't more than a drinking buddy (if you can ever call them drinking buddies), which needed no background from any of them. I don't know if you've ever been drunk so hard that you can't give a damn about anything. But there is a level of being drunk like that. Robert was often so drunk he would've been a drinking buddy to Rhaegar Targaryen too. That's why he often fucked Cersei after drinking himself down. Because at the moment he couldn't care less about what she thinks of her. This is what alcohol brings out of you.

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12 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Of course you won't ever call the Cersei we have a victim. But she wasn't always like this. She originally had a bad personality, but that gained a bigger control over her, just as drunking and whoring did with Robert, and made him the careless person we know.

 

Yes she was always like that... even as a kid she already tortured her baby brother and killed her "friend". And after Robert died, she became even worse. Cersei is toxic, cruel and psychotic, Robert is not the reason of her behaviour, he is just another target of her.

Robert on the other hand cleary changed from the man that Jon and Ned loved, to the sot we meet in AGOT. If anything is Robert that changed to worst after Cersei.

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15 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I would never call Cersei a victim. Their relationship was mutual abusive, no one here has said that Robert would ever be a loving husband to anyone, but the level of hate he and Cersei threw at each other is above and beyond.

What count in Robert's favor is that he has other relationships that aren't toxic, he gets along well with Renly, Barristan saw him as good knight, Ned and Jon loved him, Thoros was his drinking friend and so on... while with Cersei...Melara, Tyrion, Sansa, Tywin, Jaime, is all toxic.

At least is what makes me more sympathetic to Robert than Cersei.

Cersei is definitely a victim, and she and Robert both victimized each other in separate ways. Fairly safe to say that after their wedding night, the only one who tries to the relationship any effort is Robert but even that is tempered heavily by the rape and the few beatings he gave her.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/11/2021 at 10:54 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

He never did. Only while drunk. And only once (tho not entirely sure if only once), yet Cersei remembered it.

Yes. Because she’s petty and hateful.

 

Quote

He was fathering bastard before the Rebellion, during the Rebellion (when she actually fought for the love of his life, Lyanna), and after too. Cersei, in one of her chapters makes clear that she never refused to sleep with him. At the beginning of their marriage, Robert regularly had her, but as time passed and Robert saw that she doesn't like him, he slowly reduced the amount of having sex with her wife so much that in the latest few years they've only been together once or twice a year. At least this is what Cersei says.

What Bastards did he have before and during the Rebellion? He had Mya before he was engaged to Lyanna and Bella being his is questionable. Not that it matters. I never said that he wouldn’t sleep around. I said that in a Medieval setting like Westeros, that’s not a deal breaker.

I think the show might be twisting your recollection of events. In the show, Robert played a much bigger role in the failure of their marriage. In the books, she turned cold to him when he accidentally called her Lyanna.

 

Quote

Unlike Jaime, Cersei had interest in other people too, not just her own brother. Rhaegar, for example. However, a reason Cersei hates Robert is that he killed Rhaegar at the trident. So yes, she originally had a 'negative opinion' of him, but I'm sure Robert's behaviour didn't help this. Cersei claims that little did Robert care about her (probably because of Lyanna's recent death), and every single time he drank himself to the floor, he paid a visit to Cersei's bedchamber. It wasn't a pleasure to her, one can even call it rape. 

Rober killing Rhaegar was 100% justified and I don’t think Cersei was particularly close to Rhaegar. They weren’t in a relationship or friends.

 

Quote

So no, Robert wasn't a victim. Cersei was, at the beginning of their marriage, altough she grow up to him in the matter of being a terrible person.

Cersei cheated on him with her brother and put her inbred bastards on his throne, aborted his children, hit him (although he hit her too, he at least felt remorse for it), constantly verbally abused him, publically tried to emasculate him, tried to murder his brothers, murdered his children and murdered him so she could rob his family blind and end their line. Cersei was a victim to some extent, but so was Robert. And I’d argue that he was a much bigger victim in that marriage. Do you think Cersei could have had a good marriage with anyone else? This is the woman that called Catelyn a “mouse” for not suffocating Jon Snow in his crib. Even if she had married Ned Stark, she’d probably have destroyed it. As Peres said, Robert at least has good relationships outside of his marriage. All of a Cersei’s relationships are toxic.
 

Cersei is a much nicer character in the show. At least at first. In the books, she called Robert weak for not committing Genocide against the Iron Islanders. She’s one of the most evil characters in the book. Robert is deeply flawed, but he’s more of a grey character IMO.

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. Because she’s petty and hateful.

First of all, I'm trying to be objective here, I'm not putting myself on Cersei's side, I think they equally are responsible for their relationship turning out the way it did.

I don't know, it's not that petty... Not to mention that she obviously did not began to hate him as hell because of that. It was a bad experience, and due to later conditions, it gained 'territory' inside Cersei. And it didn't happen again, but Robert remained obsessed with Lyanna until his death. Not sure how could anyone forget it then. I'm just not blaming Cersei for this. But let's go forward.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

What Bastards did he have before and during the Rebellion? He had Mya before he was engaged to Lyanna and Bella being his is questionable. Not that it matters. I never said that he wouldn’t sleep around. I said that in a Medieval setting like Westeros, that’s not a deal breaker.

I mean, you can claim Bella isn't his daughter, but I'd simply say you're wrong. There's just enough evidence to consider that a fact.

And no. You said Cersei drive him into whoring and drinking, while we can see it's not true.

Quote

Part of the reason for his sleeping around was probably that Cersei refused to sleep with him. And he probably drank excessively in part to deal with her.

He pretty much was the same person back then too. I just showed you this with the example of him fathering bastard before his marriage too, and even during his 'quest' to 'save Lyanna from Rhaegar. Don't you feel that a little bit ironic or disgusting?

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I think the show might be twisting your recollection of events. In the show, Robert played a much bigger role in the failure of their marriage. In the books, she turned cold to him when he accidentally called her Lyanna.

Again, no. I don't know if you've read the books, but when Cersei began having the hots to Aurane, she began recalling how she tought she'll marry Rhaegar one day, and it was Robert who took this away from him. Altough she even mentions that Rhaegar was married and was missing with Lyanna too, she was still dreaming of Rhaegar before her marriage, and blames all of ithis on Robert, because she really desired him, and admits that she would've even chosen him instead of Jaime too. Now, I'm not saying she was or is thinking as a sane person would, but Robert saying Lyanna wasn't the little butterfly that caused the tornado that turned out to be their marriage. I mean, it really bothered her because she thinks she lost Rhaegar because of Lyanna, and that Robert too is obsessed with her, altough she's so hot, while she thinks Lyanna wasn't even beautiful. So no, she hated him on a level even before their marriage. I guess you missed this important part for whatever reason.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Rober killing Rhaegar was 100% justified and I don’t think Cersei was particularly close to Rhaegar. They weren’t in a relationship or friends.

Where was I ever saying Robert killing Rhaegar wasn't justified? I mean, it obviously was, altough not 100%, but still was.

And even tho Cersei had no relationship with Rhaegar (as far as I know they never even met properly), she was still desiring him like all the time while young. Read the books.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei cheated on him with her brother and put her inbred bastards on his throne, aborted his children, hit him (although he hit her too, he at least felt remorse for it), constantly verbally abused him, publically tried to emasculate him, tried to murder his brothers, murdered his children and murdered him so she could rob his family blind and end their line.

1)Not sure why we judge Cersei for cheating on Robert.

2)Not sure why is it relevant in our conversation what Cersei did after Robert's death.

3) She had a reason for aborting his children. It's the dumbest reason ever, but she had one. Also, those were her children too. 

4) I bet Robert needed months to recover from those hard hits.

5) Again, don't know why anything that happened after Robert's death matters when we talk about their marriage, how it worked out, and why didn't it.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei was a victim to some extent, but so was Robert. And I’d argue that he was a much bigger victim in that marriage. Do you think Cersei could have had a good marriage with anyone else?

Of course you would as a Robert stan. I, as I claim I'm not being influenced by preferring any between these two more than the other one, think Robert wasn't a bigger victim of their marriage than Cersei. They were foes, Cersei won that war.

And no, I can't really imagine Cersei having a good marriage with anyone. But neither can I do Robert. They were both rotting from the inside from the very beginning.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

This is the woman that called Catelyn a “mouse” for not suffocating Jon Snow in his crib.

This isn't relevant, just trying to paint the worst picture of Cersei, while not doing this in the case of Robert.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Even if she had married Ned Stark, she’d probably have destroyed it.

I mean, it obviously wouldn't had been a good marriage, but also wouldn't had been as bad as Robert's. Nowhere near that bad.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

As Peres said, Robert at least has good relationships outside of his marriage. All of a Cersei’s relationships are toxic.

Peres was pretty much wrong. He had no good relationship with anyone, and the reason his relationship with Jon Arryn and Ned werw working out well enough (but nowhere near good) was because both of them were willing to tolerate his dumb shit that came upon them as rain would. If you think that's how good relationships are working, I'm really sorry.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei is a much nicer character in the show. At least at first. In the books, she called Robert weak for not committing Genocide against the Iron Islanders. She’s one of the most evil characters in the book. Robert is deeply flawed, but he’s more of a grey character IMO.

I agree Cersei is one of the most evil characters, but she wasn't always like this. She became worse and worse as time passed. The Cersei we currently know is far worse than the one that married Robert, while Robert was deeply flawed back then too.

And to call someone grey, one has to have contain white as well as black. What white does Robert contain? I mean, he fought against Aerys II, who obviously was bad. But fighting bad doesn't make you good. For another example, look at Daenerys. Does fighting against slavery makes her good? Not necesarilly.

I would still say Cersei was a victim of their marriage at the beginning, but she (as we see) grow up to Robert on the matter of being a terrible person (and yes, even outgrow him). One does have to consider the beginning as well as the ending of their relationship, as well as its route.

So after all, I wouldn't call Robert grey. He was blaming the drink for him regularly raping Cersei, and when Cersei onced told him what he's been duing while drunk, even denying to remember anything, altough he obviously did (now here you should ask yourself why did Cersei murder his children with Robert). He rose to power without giving a damn about the death of Aegon and Rhaenys. He was whoring, feasting, and drinking trough his entire life, left the realm in a debt never seen before, didn't bother educating Joffrey so that the boy wouldn't be as bad as he just could, wanted to assassinate a girl with a child, let Ned murder Lady, and the list can just go on an on. What did he do to be called a grey character?

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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19 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

First of all, I'm trying to be objective here, I'm not putting myself on Cersei's side, I think they equally are responsible for their relationship turning out the way it did.

I don't know, it's not that petty... Not to mention that she obviously did not began to hate him as hell because of that. It was a bad experience, and due to later conditions, it gained 'territory' inside Cersei. And it didn't happen again, but Robert remained obsessed with Lyanna until his death. Not sure how could anyone forget it then. I'm just not blaming Cersei for this. But let's go forward.

I mean, you can claim Bella isn't his daughter, but I'd simply say you're wrong. There's just enough evidence to consider that a fact.

And no. You said Cersei drive him into whoring and drinking, while we can see it's not true.

He pretty much was the same person back then too. I just showed you this with the example of him fathering bastard before his marriage too, and even during his 'quest' to 'save Lyanna from Rhaegar. Don't you feel that a little bit ironic or disgusting?

Again, no. I don't know if you've read the books, but when Cersei began having the hots to Aurane, she began recalling how she tought she'll marry Rhaegar one day, and it was Robert who took this away from him. Altough she even mentions that Rhaegar was married and was missing with Lyanna too, she was still dreaming of Rhaegar before her marriage, and blames all of ithis on Robert, because she really desired him, and admits that she would've even chosen him instead of Jaime too. Now, I'm not saying she was or is thinking as a sane person would, but Robert saying Lyanna wasn't the little butterfly that caused the tornado that turned out to be their marriage. I mean, it really bothered her because she thinks she lost Rhaegar because of Lyanna, and that Robert too is obsessed with her, altough she's so hot, while she thinks Lyanna wasn't even beautiful. So no, she hated him on a level even before their marriage. I guess you missed this important part for whatever reason.

Where was I ever saying Robert killing Rhaegar wasn't justified? I mean, it obviously was, altough not 100%, but still was.

And even tho Cersei had no relationship with Rhaegar (as far as I know they never even met properly), she was still desiring him like all the time while young. Read the books.

1)Not sure why we judge Cersei for cheating on Robert.

2)Not sure why is it relevant in our conversation what Cersei did after Robert's death.

3) She had a reason for aborting his children. It's the dumbest reason ever, but she had one. Also, those were her children too. 

4) I bet Robert needed months to recover from those hard hits.

5) Again, don't know why anything that happened after Robert's death matters when we talk about their marriage, how it worked out, and why didn't it.

Of course you would as a Robert stan. I, as I claim I'm not being influenced by preferring any between these two more than the other one, think Robert wasn't a bigger victim of their marriage than Cersei. They were foes, Cersei won that war.

And no, I can't really imagine Cersei having a good marriage with anyone. But neither can I do Robert. They were both rotting from the inside from the very beginning.

This isn't relevant, just trying to paint the worst picture of Cersei, while not doing this in the case of Robert.

I mean, it obviously wouldn't had been a good marriage, but also wouldn't had been as bad as Robert's. Nowhere near that bad.

Peres was pretty much wrong. He had no good relationship with anyone, and the reason his relationship with Jon Arryn and Ned werw working out well enough (but nowhere near good) was because both of them were willing to tolerate his dumb shit that came upon them as rain would. If you think that's how good relationships are working, I'm really sorry.

I agree Cersei is one of the most evil characters, but she wasn't always like this. She became worse and worse as time passed. The Cersei we currently know is far worse than the one that married Robert, while Robert was deeply flawed back then too.

And to call someone grey, one has to have contain white as well as black. What white does Robert contain? I mean, he fought against Aerys II, who obviously was bad. But fighting bad doesn't make you good. For another example, look at Daenerys. Does fighting against slavery makes her good? Not necesarilly.

I would still say Cersei was a victim of their marriage at the beginning, but she (as we see) grow up to Robert on the matter of being a terrible person (and yes, even outgrow him). One does have to consider the beginning as well as the ending of their relationship, as well as its route.

So after all, I wouldn't call Robert grey. He was blaming the drink for him regularly raping Cersei, and when Cersei onced told him what he's been duing while drunk, even denying to remember anything, altough he obviously did (now here you should ask yourself why did Cersei murder his children with Robert). He rose to power without giving a damn about the death of Aegon and Rhaenys. He was whoring, feasting, and drinking trough his entire life, left the realm in a debt never seen before, didn't bother educating Joffrey so that the boy wouldn't be as bad as he just could, wanted to assassinate a girl with a child, let Ned murder Lady, and the list can just go on an on. What did he do to be called a grey character?

There’s an interview out there somewhere where Martin says that Robert was a good man, despite all the stuff he did to Cersei.

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Robert was a flawed man, who would have probably had affairs and drunk too much whomever he was to, but the flaws might have grown in different way.

Married to Cersei, who is a toxic person, he matched her toxicity for toxicity.

Married to a mousey type, he might have tried to hide the affairs out of shame, and grown to resent her for making him feel bad.

Married to a self-assured woman, maybe he would have faced an ultimatum about being discrete with his affairs, it else she would go back to her father's household. Again, there is the possiblity that he would have resented this and turned to drink, though I think a scenario like this would have likely been healthier than his marriage to Cersei.

I'm almost certain that any other marriage would have better for the kingdom. On his deathbed the one thing Robert thought her had gotten right was leaving a stable succession, and it is something most Westerosi nobles  believe is important -  more likely than not a different queen would have accepted bearing the king's legitimate children. The choice to have treasonous bastard offspring was on Cersei (and Jaime), not on Robert.

 

 

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On 3/5/2021 at 10:07 AM, BlackLightning said:

Selyse Florent would also be a very good choice if she had got a personality transplant first.

Robert likes prettier women, I think he would've rejected Selyse.

 

On 4/5/2021 at 8:11 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The best queen for the kingdom was someone who would poison Robert as soon as it became evident that he was pushing Westeros deeper and deeper into debt.

:agree:

 

On 4/3/2021 at 8:39 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

Jon Arryn could have proposed that Robert marry Arianne Martell. I doubt that there's anyway Doran would have said yes but if he had it would have gone a long way to neutralising any Dornish threat.

It would have to be a betrothal since Arianne is seven or thereabouts. And a king needs an heir, so for 9 years he would've been without an heir.

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18 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It would have to be a betrothal since Arianne is seven or thereabouts. And a king needs an heir, so for 9 years he would've been without an heir.

Robert has two brothers though, so it's not like there is a shortage of heirs at this point 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Robert has two brothers though, so it's not like there is a shortage of heirs at this point 

Oops, sorry, I completely forgot about Stiff Stannis and Renly :). 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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It’s quite laughable how people portray Robert as some sort of victim. He had th option to marry whoever he wanted, he didn’t care. (Jon Arryn could have been dismissed, Robert was the one who was going to be crowned). His idea of love towards Lyanna is just an idealization, not different from the view Dany has of the house of the red door, it means that bond and family he had with Ned. I always think people overlook Robert’s backstory, he lost his family and he couldn’t connect with his brothers, that’s the reason Stannis feels some resentment. Lyanna wasn’t female Ned, Robert wasn’t going to be pleased either way and would most likely end up in the same way. The answer lies with Ned, is him who  Robert needed, not Lyanna nor another girl.

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It depends still on who the wife is (if not wives), how they raise their children, and most importantly whether or not he has a son.
 

Chances are, he’s going to be one who abuses his seven deadly sins and sees a premature grave (albeit later than OTL). How competent and prepared of a ruler a son might be will depend on their upbringing. But if legitimate and without the potential mental genetic disorders of close in proximity breeding, probably better than a Joffrey. And no war for succession. 

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On 4/13/2021 at 9:57 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

First of all, I'm trying to be objective here, I'm not putting myself on Cersei's side, I think they equally are responsible for their relationship turning out the way it did.

I don't know, it's not that petty... Not to mention that she obviously did not began to hate him as hell because of that. It was a bad experience, and due to later conditions, it gained 'territory' inside Cersei. And it didn't happen again, but Robert remained obsessed with Lyanna until his death. Not sure how could anyone forget it then. I'm just not blaming Cersei for this. But let's go forward.

I mean, you can claim Bella isn't his daughter, but I'd simply say you're wrong. There's just enough evidence to consider that a fact.

And no. You said Cersei drive him into whoring and drinking, while we can see it's not true.

He pretty much was the same person back then too. I just showed you this with the example of him fathering bastard before his marriage too, and even during his 'quest' to 'save Lyanna from Rhaegar. Don't you feel that a little bit ironic or disgusting?

Again, no. I don't know if you've read the books, but when Cersei began having the hots to Aurane, she began recalling how she tought she'll marry Rhaegar one day, and it was Robert who took this away from him. Altough she even mentions that Rhaegar was married and was missing with Lyanna too, she was still dreaming of Rhaegar before her marriage, and blames all of ithis on Robert, because she really desired him, and admits that she would've even chosen him instead of Jaime too. Now, I'm not saying she was or is thinking as a sane person would, but Robert saying Lyanna wasn't the little butterfly that caused the tornado that turned out to be their marriage. I mean, it really bothered her because she thinks she lost Rhaegar because of Lyanna, and that Robert too is obsessed with her, altough she's so hot, while she thinks Lyanna wasn't even beautiful. So no, she hated him on a level even before their marriage. I guess you missed this important part for whatever reason.

Where was I ever saying Robert killing Rhaegar wasn't justified? I mean, it obviously was, altough not 100%, but still was.

And even tho Cersei had no relationship with Rhaegar (as far as I know they never even met properly), she was still desiring him like all the time while young. Read the books.

1)Not sure why we judge Cersei for cheating on Robert.

2)Not sure why is it relevant in our conversation what Cersei did after Robert's death.

3) She had a reason for aborting his children. It's the dumbest reason ever, but she had one. Also, those were her children too. 

4) I bet Robert needed months to recover from those hard hits.

5) Again, don't know why anything that happened after Robert's death matters when we talk about their marriage, how it worked out, and why didn't it.

Of course you would as a Robert stan. I, as I claim I'm not being influenced by preferring any between these two more than the other one, think Robert wasn't a bigger victim of their marriage than Cersei. They were foes, Cersei won that war.

And no, I can't really imagine Cersei having a good marriage with anyone. But neither can I do Robert. They were both rotting from the inside from the very beginning.

This isn't relevant, just trying to paint the worst picture of Cersei, while not doing this in the case of Robert.

I mean, it obviously wouldn't had been a good marriage, but also wouldn't had been as bad as Robert's. Nowhere near that bad.

Peres was pretty much wrong. He had no good relationship with anyone, and the reason his relationship with Jon Arryn and Ned werw working out well enough (but nowhere near good) was because both of them were willing to tolerate his dumb shit that came upon them as rain would. If you think that's how good relationships are working, I'm really sorry.

I agree Cersei is one of the most evil characters, but she wasn't always like this. She became worse and worse as time passed. The Cersei we currently know is far worse than the one that married Robert, while Robert was deeply flawed back then too.

And to call someone grey, one has to have contain white as well as black. What white does Robert contain? I mean, he fought against Aerys II, who obviously was bad. But fighting bad doesn't make you good. For another example, look at Daenerys. Does fighting against slavery makes her good? Not necesarilly.

I would still say Cersei was a victim of their marriage at the beginning, but she (as we see) grow up to Robert on the matter of being a terrible person (and yes, even outgrow him). One does have to consider the beginning as well as the ending of their relationship, as well as its route.

So after all, I wouldn't call Robert grey. He was blaming the drink for him regularly raping Cersei, and when Cersei onced told him what he's been duing while drunk, even denying to remember anything, altough he obviously did (now here you should ask yourself why did Cersei murder his children with Robert). He rose to power without giving a damn about the death of Aegon and Rhaenys. He was whoring, feasting, and drinking trough his entire life, left the realm in a debt never seen before, didn't bother educating Joffrey so that the boy wouldn't be as bad as he just could, wanted to assassinate a girl with a child, let Ned murder Lady, and the list can just go on an on. What did he do to be called a grey character?

Here’s a challenge. Show me 1 time that a Cersei did something nice to Robert or expressed remorse for the things that she did to him. Cersei didn’t win a war, because Robert wasn’t fighting a war. Cersei tried to murder him multiple times. Robert never did that, because he’s not like her. Roberts heart wasn’t rotting from the start. Cersei murdered her best friend as a child. Cersei tried twisting off Tyrion’s penis in the crib. Cersei threatened to have servants whipped for disobeying her. Cersei slept with her brother to manipulate him into joining the Kingsguard so she’d have him with her in court. When did Robert as a child do anything like this?

Theres no evidence that Bella is his child. She has black hair, but that’s it. We don’t know her eye colour and she’s not listed as one of his bastards in the index unlike Mya, Gendry and Barra.

I’m not painting them as the same, because they aren’t the same. They’ve been directly compared many times and Cersei has always come out looking like the worse person. Robert pardoned the Iron Born. Cersei called him weak for not committing genocide. Robert said that Arya should be left alone, because children fighting is normal. Cersei wanted him to cut her arm off and Robert called her “mad and cruel” for that. Cersei wants to have her servants whipped for shrinking her clothes (she’s just getting fat). When Robert is too fat for his armour, he makes a joke about it and trolls his squires. Robert is a deeply flawed character, but he’s not a monster.

What white does he have? He was forgiving, amiable, loyal to his friends, generous to a fault, brave and often chivalrous. He showed mercy to many people that he didn’t have to and shows remorse for his misdeeds. For example, when he loses his temper and hits Cersei... once he calms down he does show remorse for it. Can you show me one time Cersei showed remorse for her misdeeds?

In what World was Robert ever a worse person than Cersei. Seriously?

Actually, Robert did try to straighten out Joffrey (who is not his son). Cersei encouraged his bad behaviour. She is primarily responsible for how her inbred Bastard turned out. If Robert had married Delena Florent and had Edric Baratheon as his son, these wouldn’t even be problems.

“Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly,” Ned replied. “On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert’s friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well’, and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan’s wounds.”

He sounds like a monster without any redeeming qualities.

Also, I’m not sure why you think a marriage to Ned would be nowhere near as bad since would have murdered Jon Snow in his crib and called Catelyn weak for not killing that baby. She also threatened to murder Roberts bastards if he brought them to his castle and tried to murder them all after Robert had died.

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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On 4/16/2021 at 2:40 PM, Kolx said:

It’s quite laughable how people portray Robert as some sort of victim. He had th option to marry whoever he wanted, he didn’t care. (Jon Arryn could have been dismissed, Robert was the one who was going to be crowned). His idea of love towards Lyanna is just an idealization, not different from the view Dany has of the house of the red door, it means that bond and family he had with Ned. I always think people overlook Robert’s backstory, he lost his family and he couldn’t connect with his brothers, that’s the reason Stannis feels some resentment. Lyanna wasn’t female Ned, Robert wasn’t going to be pleased either way and would most likely end up in the same way. The answer lies with Ned, is him who  Robert needed, not Lyanna nor another girl.

I don’t necessarily think that Robert needed to marry Lyanna or that their marriage would turn out well. I do believe that he could have had a decent marriage with someone other than Cersei though. And Robert was absolutely a victim. Cersei was too, to some extent. But I do primarily blame her for their bad marriage.

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Here’s a challenge. Show me 1 time that a Cersei did something nice to Robert or expressed remorse for the things that she did to him.

I never said she did anything nice to him. That doesn't mean anything, tho, it just proves how this relationship was doomed from the very beginning, and I'll try to show it to you a last time now.

Also, it's really hard to understand what you wrote if you just write down your toughts entirely without quoting for qhat you're answering to. It's not a big deal, you just had to spend 2 more minutes than how much you actually did, and life would've been easier. It's whatever know, tho.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei didn’t win a war, because Robert wasn’t fighting a war

Explain me what are you reffering to here, because I don't get it.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei tried to murder him multiple times.

Just once, and she did it properly then.

Also, not quite relevant in a discussion where we argue over who fucked up this marriage. At the point Cersei decided to murder him (when Ned didn't even know about her and Jaime), their relationships was over for years.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert never did that, because he’s not like her.

I never said said that. I only said that:

1) Robert is a horrible person, and doesn't deserve to be called good or grey, but is far from Cersei

2) He is responsible for how his marriage turned out with Cersei just as much as she is. The fact that Robert is a way better person, but still bad and disgusting, doesn't change anything.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert's heart wasn’t rotting from the start.

Yes, it was. He was whoring from the moment he met the pleasure that comes with it. It's clearly shown where he spent days in a brothel during RR (where he was fighting for the live of his life) at Stoney Sept. And a whore actually tells us that he was doing it all the fucking time, and his goddaym favourite was Bella's mother. What kind of person does such things? Going as far as having actual favourite bitches while fighting for the love he desires the whole time?

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei murdered her best friend as a child.

Not relevant.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei tried twisting off Tyrion’s penis in the crib.

She was thinking of doing it, yes, but it's not relevant.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei threatened to have servants whipped for disobeying her.

Not relevant.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei slept with her brother to manipulate him into joining the Kingsguard so she’d have him with her in court.

Still not relevant in a discussion about who fucked up the royal marriage, and you also describe the situation worse than what it actually is.

After all, may I ask you what are you trying to prove with this? That Cersei is worse than him? I already admitted/aknowledged it several times by now. What more do you want with this? THIS DOESN'T PROVE THAT ONLY SHE IS RESPONSIBLE, stop it. We discuss here what actually ruined the royal marriage. It was broken at the very beginning, anything before or after 1 year of the marriage is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Theres no evidence that Bella is his child. She has black hair, but that’s it. We don’t know her eye colour and she’s not listed as one of his bastards in the index unlike Mya, Gendry and Barra.

Question the obvious then. It's something a stan would do, so I'm not surprised.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

I’m not painting them as the same, because they aren’t the same.

Neither am I. But that doesn't mean Robert didn't have a hand in ruining their relationship just as Cersei had.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

They’ve been directly compared many times and Cersei has always come out looking like the worse person.

I never questioned that, but we don't argue over which of the two is the better person. I tought I'd tell you if you hsven't realised it yet.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

pardoned the Iron Born. Cersei called him weak for not committing genocide.

Not relevant.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert said that Arya should be left alone, because children fighting is normal. Cersei wanted him to cut her arm off and Robert called her “mad and cruel” for that.

Not relevant.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei wants to have her servants whipped for shrinking her clothes (she’s just getting fat).

Not relevant. I also never claimed she has any sanity left.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert is a deeply flawed character, but he’s not a monster.

No, he's not. A character flawed this deeply is a bad one, tho. Don't use kinder words on him because of your preferances.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

He was forgiving

To whom? He can't forget Rhaegar and wants to crush her chest til the end of time? He's not forgiving, royal mercy isn't forgiving.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

amiable

This actually made me laugh. 

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

loyal to his friends

Like when he threatens Ned when he leaves because Ned just realised what person Robert actually is? Or who else was his friend, and what sign of loyalty have you seen from him towards anyone?

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

generous to a fault

Maybe. Sometimes not.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

brave

Agreed.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

and often chivalrous

Never. He was never an ideal knight to be called chivalrous. Just a great fighter.

 

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

He showed mercy to many people that he didn’t have to

He actually had to. To win the Rebellion. When he didn't have to, he pretty much didn't do it. Like when he sent assassins after Daenerys or made Ned murder Lady. The reason Ned didn't tell him about Joffrey's true heritage is because he tought he would be so mad that he'll order the execution of the children and Cersei. Because he lacked mercifulness when didn't have to be merciful.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

For example, when he loses his temper and hits Cersei... once he calms down he does show remorse for it.

Yea, he kinda does. Changes so much, I guess when you are told that he blamed the drink for raping her.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Can you show me one time Cersei showed remorse for her misdeeds?

No, because she doesn't. But this isn't relevant. Cersei wasn't doing anything that anyone would regret at the very beginning of their marriage.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Actually, Robert did try to straighten out Joffrey (who is not his son)

Not true. Unless you count that once he hit him so hard that the boy lost a teeth. It was when Joffrey killed the pregnant cat. Wait, it actually helped, because he never did it again. We should be thankful to him for hitting him once, and giving a damn about it his entire life?

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei encouraged his bad behaviour. She is primarily responsible for how her inbred Bastard turned out.

I guess a king's duty isn't teaching his son and heir. Better, a king has no duty. Cersei is responsible for doing it wrong, Robert is responsible for not doing his job at all.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

If Robert had married Delena Florent and had Edric Baratheon as his son, these wouldn’t even be problems.

If Joffrew wasn't mentally ill, these wouldn't even be problems. IF. If you would know Delena Florent, your assumption would be correct.

I mean, obviously it would've been a better one, but I doubt Robert would've ever had a good marriage, anyone be his wife. Because he was a drunkard rapist ignorant dickhead from the very beginning.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly,” Ned replied. “On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert’s friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well’, and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan’s wounds.”

He sounds like a monster without any redeeming qualities.

Yea, this was a good thing he actually did. Great accomplishment from him.

On 4/20/2021 at 6:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Also, I’m not sure why you think a marriage to Ned would be nowhere near as bad since would have murdered Jon Snow in his crib and called Catelyn weak for not killing that baby. She also threatened to murder Roberts bastards if he brought them to his castle and tried to murder them all after Robert had died.

I mean Ned would've never give reason Robert did to Cersei to hate him. And notice that I didn't call it a good one, I called it a better one.

And no, sorry to say that, but Robert being a way better person doesn't change the fact that he had a hand in fucking up his relationship with Cersei just as much as she had.

Goodbye.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I never said she did anything nice to him. That doesn't mean anything, tho, it just proves how this relationship was doomed from the very beginning, and I'll try to show it to you a last time now.

So Robert was nice to her a few times, never went out of his way to hurt her and felt bad when he did. Cersei was never nice to him, went out of her way to hurt him and ultimately murdered him and felt no remorse over the things that she did, but they’re equal. Sure.

The day she wed Robert Baratheon, thousands had turned out to cheer for them. All the women wore their best, and half the men had children on their shoulders. When she had emerged from inside the sept, hand in hand with the young king, the crowd sent up a roar so loud it could be heard in Lannisport. “They like you well, my lady,” Robert whispered in her ear. “See, every face is smiling.” For that one short moment she had been happy in her marriage…
 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Also, it's really hard to understand what you wrote if you just write down your toughts entirely without quoting for qhat you're answering to. It's not a big deal, you just had to spend 2 more minutes than how much you actually did, and life would've been easier. It's whatever know, tho.

Then stop whining about it. I tried, but my computer was acting up.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Explain me what are you reffering to here, because I don't get it.

You said that a Cersei won the war. I’m telling you there was no war, because Robert never tried to kill her.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Just once, and she did it properly then.

Nope. She tried at least twice. Gary’s mentions that she tried to have him join the melee to assassinate him. And isn’t one more than enough?

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Also, not quite relevant in a discussion where we argue over who fucked up this marriage. At the point Cersei decided to murder him (when Ned didn't even know about her and Jaime), their relationships was over for years.

Since you’re makin the argument that they were equally bad and that Robert just lost the war, it’s absolutely relevant. Robert had plenty of opportunities to kill her. He was never trying to kill her. Cersei murdered her husband. Robert had no intention of murder in his wife. They aren’t equally bad.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I never said said that. I only said that:

1) Robert is a horrible person, and doesn't deserve to be called good or grey, but is far from Cersei

Your issue is with George then, because he’s stated that Robert had many positive qualities and we’ve been told this in the books many times. It doesn’t mean he’s flawless. He had many negative traits too. But he’s absolutely a gray character. Cersei is much closer to black than Robert is.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

2) He is responsible for how his marriage turned out with Cersei just as much as she is. The fact that Robert is a way better person, but still bad and disgusting, doesn't change anything.

Nope. Because Robert put in some effort to make it better and Cersei never did. Even if you want to say that he didn’t put in much effort, he did put in some. Married to a normal person it’s very unlikely that his marriage would turn out as toxic. The only way Cersei could have a peaceable marriage is if she married a lickspittle that did everything she told him to. And even that seems unlikely, seeing as her relationship with Jaime is falling apart.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yes, it was. He was whoring from the moment he met the pleasure that comes with it. It's clearly shown where he spent days in a brothel during RR (where he was fighting for the live of his life) at Stoney Sept. And a whore actually tells us that he was doing it all the fucking time, and his goddaym favourite was Bella's mother. What kind of person does such things? Going as far as having actual favourite bitches while fighting for the love he desires the whole time?

Where’s your proof? We were told by other people that Robert was wounded and moving from house to house. When did he find the time to sleep with an entire brothel and do you have evidence that Bella is his kid? Are you going to address the fact that she was the only possible bastard of Roberts who’s name was left out of the appendix?

Also, being promiscuous doesn’t mean that his heart was rotting. Edmure is promiscuous and he’s one of the nicest characters in this series. Robert was a young nobleman and good looking. He had sex. Big whoop.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not relevant.

She was thinking of doing it, yes, but it's not relevant.

Not relevant.

Still not relevant in a discussion about who fucked up the royal marriage, and you also describe the situation worse than what it actually is.

She wasn’t thinking of doing it. She did it. This isn’t just about her marriage to Robert. It’s pointing out that unlike Robert, her heart was rotten early on. Robert was a drunken frat boy that liked to play sports and had sex. Cersei threatened to beat her servants, abused her baby brother, was sleeping with her brother to manipulate him and murdered her best friend. These people aren’t equal.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

After all, may I ask you what are you trying to prove with this? That Cersei is worse than him? I already admitted/aknowledged it several times by now. What more do you want with this? THIS DOESN'T PROVE THAT ONLY SHE IS RESPONSIBLE, stop it. We discuss here what actually ruined the royal marriage. It was broken at the very beginning, anything before or after 1 year of the marriage is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

Can you show me where I said she was exclusively responsible? I said that she was more responsible and I stand by it. You made the argument that if they married someone else, they would have turned out exactly the same. I’m not buying it. Both characters have personal flaws, but Robert falls much more within 5e bounds of normal flaws for this setting. Cersei is closer to Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton than she is to him.
 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Question the obvious then. It's something a stan would do, so I'm not surprised.

You’re dodging. Should I take this as a concession, or will you explain why her name was left out of the appendix?

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Neither am I. But that doesn't mean Robert didn't have a hand in ruining their relationship just as Cersei had.

When did I say he was completely innocent? I’ve said multiple times that he played a role in their bad marriage. I only said that Cersei played a much bigger role and that I can see Robert having a relatively decent marriage to a different woman. I think Cersei’s toxicity would poison any relationship that she had with almost anyone else.
 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I never questioned that, but we don't argue over which of the two is the better person. I tought I'd tell you if you hsven't realised it yet.

Not relevant.

Not relevant.

Not relevant. I also never claimed she has any sanity left.

You said that he’s not a grey character, so this is absolutely relevant. It’s absolutely relevant to compare him to an evil character. Robert opposed genocide. Robert felt that maiming a child over a fight was insane and cruel and wouldn’t allow it. Robert didn’t beat his squires over getting fat and made a joke about it. Cersei was only just barely talked out of beating her servants, because she got fat. You’re the one saying that he’s not a gray character.
 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No, he's not. A character flawed this deeply is a bad one, tho. Don't use kinder words on him because of your preferances.

Bad by modern standards? Maybe. Bad by Westerosi standards. Nope. Robert isn’t Euron, Gregor, Tywin, Joffrey, Ramsay, Roose, Walder Frey, Littlefinger or Cersei. 
 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

To whom? He can't forget Rhaegar and wants to crush her chest til the end of time? He's not forgiving, royal mercy isn't forgiving.

Yes. Rhaegar was the exception as Ned noted. Robert could forgive his enemies if they were brave and honest. Rhaegar didn’t fall within thise parameters so he held a grudge. Almost everyone else that opposed him was pardoned.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

This actually made me laugh.

That’s fine. He made a lot of people laugh.

“Look at these oafs, Ned. My wife insisted I take these two to squire for me, and they’re worse than useless. Can’t even put a man’s armor on him properly. Squires, they say. I say they’re swineherds dressed up in silk.”

Ned only needed a glance to understand the difficulty. “The boys are not at fault,” he told the king. “You’re too fat for your armor, Robert.”

Robert Baratheon took a long swallow of beer, tossed the empty horn onto his sleeping furs, wiped his mouth with the back of his hand, and said darkly, “Fat? Fat, is it? Is that how you speak to your king?” He let go his laughter, sudden as a storm. “Ah, damn you, Ned, why are you always right?”

The squires smiled nervously until the king turned on them. “You. Yes, both of you. You heard the Hand. The king is too fat for his armor. Go find Ser Aron Santagar. Tell him I need the breastplate stretcher. Now! What are you waiting for?”

The boys tripped over each other in their haste to be quit of the tent. Robert managed to keep a stern face until they were gone. Then he dropped back into a chair, shaking with laughter.

Ser Barristan Selmy chuckled with him. Even Eddard Stark managed a smile.
 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Like when he threatens Ned when he leaves because Ned just realised what person Robert actually is? Or who else was his friend, and what sign of loyalty have you seen from him towards anyone?

Yes. He said some words.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Maybe. Sometimes not.

Agreed.

You’re disagreeing with George here. He’s said many times that Robert was a man of great, but careless generosity.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Never. He was never an ideal knight to be called chivalrous. Just a great fighter.

He was chivalrous on many occasions. He wasn’t perfect and I said as much. Barristan said this to Daenerys (who has plenty of reasons to hate him).

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

He actually had to. To win the Rebellion. When he didn't have to, he pretty much didn't do it. Like when he sent assassins after Daenerys or made Ned murder Lady. The reason Ned didn't tell him about Joffrey's true heritage is because he tought he would be so mad that he'll order the execution of the children and Cersei. Because he lacked mercifulness when didn't have to be merciful.

No. He didn’t. He could have killed people that fought against him and got away with it. Especially after the Trident.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yea, he kinda does. Changes so much, I guess when you are told that he blamed the drink for raping her.

No, because she doesn't. But this isn't relevant. Cersei wasn't doing anything that anyone would regret at the very beginning of their marriage.

She did plenty. She slept with her brother the morning of their wedding. Imagine if she got pregnant then. Would she abort the kid or would she place her brothers bastard in the line of succession like she did anyways. This isn’t just about the beginning of their marriage either. Robert has a conscience. Cersei has a much smaller one. She almost never admits to doing anything wrong, because she’s a much worse person than him. This is important, because you said that married to other people, they’d have the same outcomes. Robert is a flawed person with a conscience and empathy. Cersei isn’t.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not true. Unless you count that once he hit him so hard that the boy lost a teeth. It was when Joffrey killed the pregnant cat. Wait, it actually helped, because he never did it again. We should be thankful to him for hitting him once, and giving a damn about it his entire life?

Not giving a damn about his wife’s son (not his son), isn’t backed up by the evidence. Before the Tourney of the Hand he talks to Ned about it and it’s clear that Joffreys behaviour troubled him. I’m not saying that he was a great father, but with a decent kid he’d probably be passable. Cersei wouldnt.
 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I guess a king's duty isn't teaching his son and heir. Better, a king has no duty. Cersei is responsible for doing it wrong, Robert is responsible for not doing his job at all.

Say it with me. Joffrey. Wasn’t. His. Son. He was an inbred bastard and in this world, the products of incest often go mad. Edric lived at Storms End, got to spend time with Robert when he visited and modeled his behaviour on what he saw of Robert and the stories that he heard about him. How did Edric turn out compared to Joffrey?

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If Joffrew wasn't mentally ill, these wouldn't even be problems. IF. If you would know Delena Florent, your assumption would be correct.

Joffreys madness is probably partially rooted in the fact that he’s inbred. Joffrey is inbred because of choices that were made by Jaime and Cersei without Riberts approval.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean, obviously it would've been a better one, but I doubt Robert would've ever had a good marriage, anyone be his wife. Because he was a drunkard rapist ignorant dickhead from the very beginning.

That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. It’s just not really backed up by the books.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yea, this was a good thing he actually did. Great accomplishment from him.

It’s one of many.

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean Ned would've never give reason Robert did to Cersei to hate him. And notice that I didn't call it a good one, I called it a better one.

Is something wrong with you? Are you okay? Ned was plain, distant and he was coming home with a bastard. Jon Snow would be dead and Cersei would have no problem threatening to murder Jon, since she did that with Robert... someone bigger, stronger and of higher social status than Ned. Do you really think she wouldn’t threaten to murder Ned’s bastard? Do you really think she wouldn’t go through with it, since she murdered Barra (a newborn baby) and called Catelyn a mouse for not smothering Jon Snow in her crib (Catelyn wasn’t a mouse... she was just a person with empathy and that’s something that a Cersei has a very hard time understanding). When she murdered Jon Snow, how do you think Ned would react? Do you think he’d just move on?

 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And no, sorry to say that, but Robert being a way better person doesn't change the fact that he had a hand in fucking up his relationship with Cersei just as much as she had.

Goodbye.

Again. I never said that he was completely innocent. I said that a Cersei was much worse and the fact that Robert tried to be nice to her on occasions, felt remorse for hurting her when he did and had a moral compass in spite of his flaws tells me that married to a normal woman, he could probably have a decent marriage. Cersei is in a league of her own.

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@Lee-Sensei it was good to have this conversation, but since you're trying to protect Robert from obvious things (claiming that Bella isn't his, and not educating Joffrey because he wasn't his son, like he knew it), I find my words entirely worthless. Grow up and realise what is relevant, what isn't, what is true and what isn't, because I only see a Robert fangirl trying to protect the statue of his favourite. I mean, it's okay to like bad characters, I do too. 

Also, I think my replies are fulfilling enough so that I won't feel the obligation of writing another one. Goodbye.

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