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Alyn Oakenfist

Quaithe's prophecies are NOT set in stone

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So I just realized something interesting about one of Quaithe's prophecies. Specifically the one in ADWD

Quote

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

So most of them are obvious by now. The Pale Mare is just that, Kraken and Dark Flame are Victarion and Moqorro, the sun's son is Quentyn and the perfumed seneschal is probably Reznak mo Reznak. However there is something interesting with the other 3, in that we know very clearly who they are. Lion and griffin are Tyrion and Jon Con while the mummer's dragon is fAegon. But only one of them is or will come to Dany, Tyrion.

 

But they were coming to her until Tyrion changed Aegon's mind and then got kidnapped by Jorah. So what seems to happen here is that Quithe predicated what may come, not what will come, and her prophecy was affected by the small things of chance coming from Tyrion poking Aegon and going to the brothel, without which him Jon Con and fAegon would have come to Dany. So what does that mean for her other prophecies?

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The glass candles are allowing her to see over distances, not the future, she was watching all those people/groups in the now as they made their way to Dany. That they would arrive at Dany and in what order is a logical conclusion she's drawn based on watching them.

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I think that's in general the point of prophecies in ASOIAF, Meera says it best in ASOS (tho I still can't find the quote) but there's no purpose for a prophecy if it's already set in stone, why send it? it won't change anything. IMHO prophecy is sent by a powerful telepath (blood raven, COTF, three eyed crow) or someone with a powerful telepathic device (Marwyn, Quaithe, Euron?) to force people into doing what they want, either to conform to the vision of the future, which seems to be the case with Jojen, or to try and fight it and therefore causing it, like I argued was the case for the Younger, More Beautiful Queen

If Quaithe has a glass candle, she just saw Aegon's crew and knew they where going to Dany, but didn't account for Tyrion messing with them. 

 

So, what does Quaithe want to cause in Dany? well, she does tell her to 'trust none of them' but if they are who we think they are, why shouldn't she trust some of them? Aegon seems to want to be her ally, same as Tyrion, same as Moqorro, same as Quentyn.

Does Quaithe want to turn Dany paranoid? Does she want her to distrust everyone? What effect do the prophecies have on Dany? What effect will they have? I assume she would keep assigning roles to people she meets based on the prophecies and distrust them all, for sure that will happen with Tyrion.

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I don’t think that’s a prophecy, but rather cryptic intel. 
@CamiloRP, the passage you’re looking for is from Clash, not Storm
 

ACoK, Bran V

“It heartened Bran to hear that. Maybe they won’t drown, then, he thought. If they stay away from the sea.
Meera thought so too, later that night when she and Joien met Bran in his room to play a three-sided game of tiles, but her brother shook his head. “The things I see in green dreams can’t be changed.”
That made his sister angry. “Why would the gods send a warning if we can’t heed it and change what’s to come?
“I don’t know,” Joien said sadly.”

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think that’s a prophecy, but rather cryptic intel. 
@CamiloRP, the passage you’re looking for is from Clash, not Storm
 

ACoK, Bran V

“It heartened Bran to hear that. Maybe they won’t drown, then, he thought. If they stay away from the sea.
Meera thought so too, later that night when she and Joien met Bran in his room to play a three-sided game of tiles, but her brother shook his head. “The things I see in green dreams can’t be changed.”
That made his sister angry. “Why would the gods send a warning if we can’t heed it and change what’s to come?
“I don’t know,” Joien said sadly.”

That might explain why I couldn't find it .___.

Thanks a lot!

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Quaithe is not giving Dany visions. Quaithe is using a glass candle to see what's going on and telling her who is seeking her out.  Her riddles are as bad as MMD's.

Jorah is a possessive creep, but he is right when he tells Dany that she shouldn't trust Quaithe. There's an insurrection inside Meereen with the Sons of the Harpy murdering freedmen and Unsullied, but Quaithe is warning Dany against people that will be at her doorstep in months. And except for Moqorro, the people she is warning her against are Westerosi. Moqorro goes to Dany because Benerro believes she is AA. Jon Connington was taking Aegon (yes, Aegon) to Dany to join their claims and invade Westeros together to reclaim the realm. Tyrion is supposed to be a useful counsellor because he knows the players. Quentyn was there for a marriage and give her Dorne's allegiance. Victarion is an idiot with a dragon's horn. Out of the bunch headed to Dany, he is the more dangerous one because Euron is his brother.  

Quaithe is full of shit about the people she shouldn't trust when she herself took interest in Dany because of the dragons (same as the other seekers). And whatever she is doing with Dany is not good. She is appealing to Dany's fire and blood side in the same way Daario is. Dany trusts Quaithe and she has taken Daario into her bed and thinks about him being one of the heads of the dragon. What could possibly go wrong.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Quaithe is not giving Dany visions. Quaithe is using a glass candle to see what's going on and telling her who is seeking her out.  Her riddles are as bad as MMD's.

Jorah is a possessive creep, but he is right when he tells Dany that she shouldn't trust Quaithe. There's an insurrection inside Meereen with the Sons of the Harpy murdering freedmen and Unsullied, but Quaithe is warning Dany against people that will be at her doorstep in months. And except for Moqorro, the people she is warning her against are Westerosi. Moqorro goes to Dany because Benerro believes she is AA. Jon Connington was taking Aegon (yes, Aegon) to Dany to join their claims and invade Westeros together to reclaim the realm. Tyrion is supposed to be a useful counsellor because he knows the players. Quentyn was there for a marriage and give her Dorne's allegiance. Victarion is an idiot with a dragon's horn. Out of the bunch headed to Dany, he is the more dangerous one because Euron is his brother.  

Quaithe is full of shit about the people she shouldn't trust when she herself took interest in Dany because of the dragons (same as the other seekers). And whatever she is doing with Dany is not good. She is appealing to Dany's fire and blood side in the same way Daario is. Dany trusts Quaithe and she has taken Daario into her bed and thinks about him being one of the heads of the dragon. What could possibly go wrong.

Also, Quaithe has sent dreams to Dany, and she dreams of having sex with Daario or Daario-like men often, is Quaithe pushing Dany towards Daario just so she embraces her fire and blood side?

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I always thought Quaithe was sending Dany vague visions with just enough nuggets of truth to keep her second guessing her actions and distrustful of everyone around her who could help her.

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5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I just realized something interesting about one of Quaithe's prophecies. Specifically the one in ADWD

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

So most of them are obvious by now. The Pale Mare is just that, Kraken and Dark Flame are Victarion and Moqorro, the sun's son is Quentyn and the perfumed seneschal is probably Reznak mo Reznak. However there is something interesting with the other 3, in that we know very clearly who they are. Lion and griffin are Tyrion and Jon Con while the mummer's dragon is fAegon. But only one of them is or will come to Dany, Tyrion.

But they were coming to her until Tyrion changed Aegon's mind and then got kidnapped by Jorah. So what seems to happen here is that Quithe predicated what may come, not what will come, and her prophecy was affected by the small things of chance coming from Tyrion poking Aegon and going to the brothel, without which him Jon Con and fAegon would have come to Dany. So what does that mean for her other prophecies?

I disagree with your assessment of the prophesy here. I do not think the "pale mare" is referring to the disease here.

Remember the Undying:

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .
Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

I think Quaithe is referring to Dany's Silver.

Quote
Spoiler

Ser Barristan Selmy rode past them slowly. The old knight wore the armor his queen had given him—a suit of white enameled steel, inlaid and chased with gold. The cloak that streamed from his shoulders was as white as winter snow, as was the shield slung from his saddle. Beneath him was the queen's own mount, the silver mare Khal Drogo had given her upon their wedding day. That was presumptuous, he knew, but if Daenerys herself could not be with them in their hour of peril, Ser Barristan hoped the sight of her silver in the fray might give heart to her warriors, reminding them of who and what they fought for. Besides, the silver had been years in the company of the queen's dragons, and had grown accustomed to the sight and scent of them. That was not something that could be said for the horses of their foes.

 

 

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4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, Quaithe has sent dreams to Dany, and she dreams of having sex with Daario or Daario-like men often, is Quaithe pushing Dany towards Daario just so she embraces her fire and blood side?

Both Quaithe and Daario are challenging Dany to remember who she is. When Daario proposes that Dany goes down the road of the Red Wedding-like scenario with the Great Masters, Dany tells Daario that she is no butcher queen. They get into an argument she tells him to remember who she is, and his reply was to challenge her to remember who she is.

Quaithe throws the same challenge at Dany when she pops up in Meereen with that riddle of hers. She tells her to remember who she is. And then in Dany's final chapter, she issues the same challenge again. Remember who you are. The dragons know. Do you?

If I were the sort of person who goes down rabbit holes, I'd think that Quaithe and Daario know one another, and are working Dany to their own endgame. The people who are looking to hurt/destroy Dany are inside the city. That's the most pressing matter. But instead of helping there, Quaithe goes out of her way to warn Dany against people who are hundreds of leagues away from her.

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2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I disagree with your assessment of the prophesy here. I do not think the "pale mare" is referring to the disease here.

Remember the Undying:

I think Quaithe is referring to Dany's Silver.

 

I have thought about that connection in the past, I'm not completely convinced but I like some of the possibilities:

The kraken could be the grey lips smiling sadly (grey-joy)

The lion could  be the white lion running through grass

The griffin could be the great stone beast

The sun's son could be the vision of Rhaego (Drogo was Dany's sun)

The mummer's dragon could be the cloth dragon

 

The only one I can't place is the dark flame, there are also some visions lacking:

The blue eyed king

Mother of mountains

Blue Flower growing in a chink in an ice wall

And the slaves grabbing Dany (tho this could also be the pale mare)

 

 

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2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I have thought about that connection in the past, I'm not completely convinced but I like some of the possibilities:

The kraken could be the grey lips smiling sadly (grey-joy)

The lion could  be the white lion running through grass

The griffin could be the great stone beast

The sun's son could be the vision of Rhaego (Drogo was Dany's sun)

The mummer's dragon could be the cloth dragon

 

The only one I can't place is the dark flame, there are also some visions lacking:

The blue eyed king

Mother of mountains

Blue Flower growing in a chink in an ice wall

And the slaves grabbing Dany (tho this could also be the pale mare)

Obviously this is all just my speculation:

Pale mare - Dany's silver

Kraken - grey lips smiling (Greyjoy) 

Dark flame - The king who casts no shadow (Stannis/Melisandre, the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness)

Lion - The white lion in the grass (Tyrion or perhaps Jaime or even Cersei)

Griffin - Stone beast breathing shadowfire (Connington)

Sun's Son - Aegon (Elia's son, or perhaps Rhaego the son of Dany's Sun and Stars)

Mummer's dragon - cloth dragon (fAegon)

This has an added layer since they were given in pairs.

Kraken and Darkflame - Is this Euron and Melisandre?

Spoiler

He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in a woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Lion and Griffin - Would Jon Connington agree to marry Cersei?

Sun's Son and Mummer's Dragon - Aegon and/or false Aegon? or perhaps Aegon and/or a Brightflame, or Blackfyre descendent.

So many possibilities!

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5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always thought Quaithe was sending Dany vague visions with just enough nuggets of truth to keep her second guessing her actions and distrustful of everyone around her who could help her.

:agree:  That's exactly it.

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20 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Quaithe is not giving Dany visions. Quaithe is using a glass candle to see what's going on and telling her who is seeking her out.  Her riddles are as bad as MMD's.

Jorah is a possessive creep, but he is right when he tells Dany that she shouldn't trust Quaithe.

Quaithe is Q and Dany is believing the first Qanon post she saw on Facebook. 

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Quaithe is Q and Dany is believing the first Qanon post she saw on Facebook. 

wake up sheeple

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Quaithe was giving Daenerys good advice.  It's not prophecy but rather warnings to be cautious.  She wants to keep the young Targaryen and her dragons safe.  Most if not all of her advice are good.  Quentin was not worthy of trust.  The other visitors and suitors may have interests that were not aligned with that of Daenerys.    

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14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Quaithe is Q and Dany is believing the first Qanon post she saw on Facebook. 

Mark Zuckerburg's evil extends multiple dimensions and time periods, it would seem...

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