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Son of Man

Mance Rayder and Jon Snow violated guest rights

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2 hours ago, Leonardo said:

It's Freys and Boltons; all bets are off after the Red Wedding with them.

 

Also it's the Stark ancestral home, it isn't the Boltons. They have no claim whatsoever in living memory and neither do the Freys, as Jeyne is a fake Arya, and Bran and Rickon are both alive as well as Sansa and real Arya. Hell, Jon has claim to Winterfell ffs.

Reading this has me agreeing with you and laughing as I realize that some of the hypocrites who like argue that Winterfell belongs to the Boltons because they took it over and occupy it are the same people that call Robert Baratheon a “usurper”. 
 

And on a different but related note , Wyman Manderly is safe from guest rights violations. He enpied his Freys after giving them guest gifts and observing all the customs above-board.  And he brought the provisions to Winterfell to feed everyone, not just his own men.  He also brought his own horses , so when the time came to eat horse or perish, no one can really say that he ate only food from Bolton’s stable. No way in hell your horses belong to the Lord of the house while you’re his  guest.   

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Jon sent Mance Rayder and the women to pursue his sister and bring her back.  Mance is like a hound that Jon sicced on the Boltons.  He ordered them to get Arya.  So he is responsible for what they did.  He chose to let Mance Rayder go unpunished even after the man committed the worst crimes against the Night's Watch from a ranger.  The blame and the responsibility for breaking the laws of guest rights is Jon's.  He knowingly sent a criminal whose behavior knows no boundaries to fetch Arya.  

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11 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Reading this has me agreeing with you and laughing as I realize that some of the hypocrites who like argue that Winterfell belongs to the Boltons because they took it over and occupy it are the same people that call Robert Baratheon a “usurper”. 
 

And on a different but related note , Wyman Manderly is safe from guest rights violations. He enpied his Freys after giving them guest gifts and observing all the customs above-board.  And he brought the provisions to Winterfell to feed everyone, not just his own men.  He also brought his own horses , so when the time came to eat horse or perish, no one can really say that he ate only food from Bolton’s stable. No way in hell your horses belong to the Lord of the house while you’re his  guest.   

Nice I totally forgot Manderly was the one feeding everybody! Just another chock on the board.

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On 11/18/2020 at 12:09 AM, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

Agreed and liked

 

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On 11/18/2020 at 12:09 AM, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

It is a very interesting topic for us to debate and discuss for the sake of judging the characters.  It's academic and merely confirms what should be obvious that they are guilty of violating guest rights.  I am uncertain as to what the effects on the plot will be.  Could be nothing, could be everything.  I am thinking it will not affect the plot much.  I fail to see how things can get any worse.  The strained and undermanned N/W is now involved in Jon's private quarrel with the son of the Warden of the North.  It's happening at the worst time it could.  The unity at the wall is now broken because half or more of the personnel manning the walls are now riding for battle in the opposite direction and against the people they are supposed to be protecting.  Jon's and Mance's oath breaking will have larger consequences. 

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18 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Reading this has me agreeing with you and laughing as I realize that some of the hypocrites who like argue that Winterfell belongs to the Boltons because they took it over and occupy it are the same people that call Robert Baratheon a “usurper”. 
 

And on a different but related note , Wyman Manderly is safe from guest rights violations. He enpied his Freys after giving them guest gifts and observing all the customs above-board.  And he brought the provisions to Winterfell to feed everyone, not just his own men.  He also brought his own horses , so when the time came to eat horse or perish, no one can really say that he ate only food from Bolton’s stable. No way in hell your horses belong to the Lord of the house while you’re his  guest.   

The hypocrisy on this goes both ways

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18 minutes ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Jon is aware of the legend of Bael.  He knew of Mance Rayder's talents for getting into and out of Winterfell.  All of that played into his decision to ignore the man's crimes and use him to pull his sister away from her husband. 

He didn't know they would be in Winterfell tho. He thought Winterfell was a ruin. He sent Mance to help a lost girl escaping on horseback.

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4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

How conveniently many forget this. 

Yep, people have been repeating it since the start of the thread, yet they ignore it, same as in the "how brutal where the stark of old" thread

Hey @people a word of advice, if your best argument for a belief you hold is ignoring anything against it maybe then you know you're wrong.

 

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2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

yet they ignore it, same as in the "how brutal where the stark of old" thread

Correction: same as in every damn Stark hate thread, of which there are millions 

2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Hey @people a word of advice, if your best argument for a belief you hold is ignoring anything against it maybe then you know you're wrong

Deaf ears

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On 11/18/2020 at 12:09 AM, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

I agree with the bolded text.  Jon really sank to the lowest level for a brother of the Night's Watch.  Mance did too.  They both have taken their vows and betrayed those vows. 

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On 11/18/2020 at 2:21 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Jon is an idiot for doing this.  He practically declared war on the Warden of the North and got the N/W involved.  

This is the bigger sin or crime.  In my opinion, the violating of guest rights is an affront to the gods and the laws but picking a fight with the Boltons is the biggest of Jon's numerous mistakes.  Arya was no longer his concern.  Which is what he would have told another sworn member of the watch if that man had been facing the same dilemma.  A leader who cannot follow the rules which he is expected to hold others accountable for is not fit to rule. 

Edited by Shierak Qiya

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3 hours ago, Shierak Qiya said:

This is the bigger sin or crime.  In my opinion, the violating of guest rights is an affront to the gods and the laws but picking a fight with the Boltons is the biggest of Jon's numerous mistakes.  Arya was no longer his concern.  Which is what he would have told another sworn member of the watch if that man had been facing the same dilemma.  A leader who cannot follow the rules which he is expected to hold others accountable for is not fit to rule. 

Yea, I like my leaders who allow their sisters to be brutalized by the murderers of their brother.  
     It’d be really weird if it turned out Jon had someone glammer themselves to look like Jon and this person was the one stabbed. 

 

 

 

 

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I was about to write a post saying that while Jon had definitely broken his nightswatch vows but I completely supported him in doing so, but I thought I had better re-check what he actually swore first.

Quote

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

It is actually very debatable whether he broke any oath here. The interpretation by the modern nightwatch is that they should not interfere with politics south of the wall, which I admit he did. But the actual oath doesn't really say that other than they should not become rulers. The live and die at my post part is probably the closest but is wide open for interpretation.

There seems to be a very central theme in asoiaf in which people swear all sort of oaths, and often these oaths get in the way of doing what is morally right. He keep one oath you must break another. His most important role is to defeat the others imo, and I don't believe having the Boltons rule the north helps in anyway. He was in a near impossible situation and went with trying to assist Stannis With what he knows of Stannis I think that was the best possible call he could make to help guard the realms of men.

I do find it weird that so many people are supporting the Boltons. They have been written as the most unsympathetic, black and white villains in all the books so far.  

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9 hours ago, Shierak Qiya said:

This is the bigger sin or crime.  In my opinion, the violating of guest rights is an affront to the gods and the laws but picking a fight with the Boltons is the biggest of Jon's numerous mistakes.  Arya was no longer his concern.  Which is what he would have told another sworn member of the watch if that man had been facing the same dilemma.  A leader who cannot follow the rules which he is expected to hold others accountable for is not fit to rule. 

The damage was already done even if the wildlings had not murdered people inside the castle.  It just added to the tragedy. 

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6 hours ago, Makk said:

There seems to be a very central theme in asoiaf in which people swear all sort of oaths, and often these oaths get in the way of doing what is morally right. He keep one oath you must break another

To keep one of many oaths you have to break a few. Just ask Jaime. 

6 hours ago, Makk said:

do find it weird that so many people are supporting the Boltons. They have been written as the most unsympathetic, black and white villains in all the books so far

It's funny, not weird to me, how certain posters on this Forum support all sorts of scum like the Boltons, most Freys, etc only to fuel their irrationally biased hatred. 

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Enough posting in these Stark hate threads. Rationality only gets ignored. And these hate posters get more views and replies. Boycott. Let them rant on toxically

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