US Politics: The Republicans problem with small packages

[GrimTuesday]

34 minutes ago, DMC said:

This is theoretical nonsense.  First off, the center isn't static and never could be.  Second, highlighting people from the other side of the center endorsing you always makes sense in a two party system.  This is gov 101, median voter theorem basics.  A slot at the convention is purely about campaigning and means nothing in terms of governing.  It costs Biden nothing.  You think Kasich would agree at all with almost all of Biden's proposals and unilateral actions thus far? 

Biden is moving the (stupidly named) Overton window left based on his governance thus far AND he got Kasich to tell people like him to vote for him.  Thank the gods he's got the sense to do so.

I'm wasn't, and I not going to argue the DNC thing again, that is a pointless exercise since it is done and dusted and my fears that it would disincentivize the left from getting behind Biden went unrealized. What I will argue is that the idea that John Kasich is somehow not right wing because the republicans have moved further to the right. He still holds the exact same vile ideology that he always had, nothing has changed in that regard, and I would argue that outside of the Q folks, Trumpism is just Republicanism that took off the mask and got a shit spray tan. They didn't really move significantly further right, they moved significantly more crazy.

44 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The center is always moving because politics is not static. That's exactly how you get this:
 

ETA:  

Quote

“I thought: Wait a minute. It’s not rational but it’s also not politics. It’s not what a president does,” said Clinton. She had hoped to hear Trump make an attempt to reach out to non-supporters. “I hoped I would hear a little of that, I didn’t hear any of that. And that carnage in the street and the dark dystopian vision. I was sitting there like just, wow. I couldn’t believe it. And George W. Bush says to me, ‘Well, that was some weird shit,’” she recalled.

 

This motherfucker ruined countless lives on a global scale and we're just telling some goofy anecdotes about how he thought Trump's American carnage speech was a bit much? No fuck that, GWB is a criminal who should have been dragged in front of the Hague, or barring that never been allowed even a single moment of his life to go by where he is not reminded of what he did.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

What I will argue is that the idea that John Kasich is somehow not right wing because the republicans have moved further to the right.

Sure.  Kasich is still right wing, not arguing that.  In fact it reminds me of a discussion a few years back, when one of my cohorts (who's from Ohio) cited him as a "moderate" Republican.  I think I may have literally guffawed and was like "seriously, Kasich is a moderate?  No.  Kasich just isn't crazy.  There's a difference."

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

This motherfucker ruined countless lives on a global scale and we're just telling some goofy anecdotes about how he thought Trump's American carnage speech was a bit much? No fuck that, GWB is a criminal who should have been dragged in front of the Hague, or barring that never been allowed even a single moment of his life to go by where he is not reminded of what he did.

In my college poli sci classes when the world was falling apart everyone wondered if Dubya was a sure lock to be the worst president ever. How a decade makes you reflect on that. Bush is still one of the worst presidents ever. There are very few positives to spin from it while OTOH there was so much naked evil, to put it bluntly. And still, it was better than Trump. And that's how the scale slides. Bush is both a war criminal and totally normalized. Because that's just how bad Republicans are today, so when former Republicans reject that nonsense and support the Democratic candidate, take it for what it is and keep things moving in a progressive direction. Their support has had little impact on Biden's ability to govern in a progressive way. 

[Martell Spy]

33 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

In my college poli sci classes when the world was falling apart everyone wondered if Dubya was a sure lock to be the worst president ever. How a decade makes you reflect on that. Bush is still one of the worst presidents ever. There are very few positives to spin from it while OTOH there was so much naked evil, to put it bluntly. And still, it was better than Trump. And that's how the scale slides. Bush is both a war criminal and totally normalized. Because that's just how bad Republicans are today, so when former Republicans reject that nonsense and support the Democratic candidate, take it for what it is and keep things moving in a progressive direction. Their support has had little impact on Biden's ability to govern in a progressive way. 

One of Bush's worst acts, and there are many, is continuing to fundraise for Republicans in the Trump era. Meaning he is complicit in the the Senate failing to convict Trump, soon to be twice. It'd be nice if he could stop helping take a blowtorch to this country.

[Jaxom 1974]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

The center is always moving because politics is not static. That's exactly how you get this:
 

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

[Fez]

Complicated late night decision from SCOTUS just came down regarding an injunction request on California's ban on indoor worship services: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/20a136_bq7c.pdf

The end result is that California cannot completely ban indoor services in 54 of 58 counties (the ones at highest risk of COVID spread right now, according to state classification). However, they can limit occupancy to 25%, and can ban singing and chanting indoors.

What I find particularly interesting is how the justices are positioned:

Thomas and Gorsuch were the furthest to the right, they would've struck down all the state restrictions immediately

Alito is almost as far right, he would've struck down all the state restrictions, but stayed the decision for 30 days to give California the chance to present new information.

Roberts, Kavanaugh, and Barrett have the controlling opinion. Noting that since businesses are allowed to operate indoors at 25% capacity, equal protection means religious centers must be allowed to as well.

Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan would have upheld all the state's restrictions.

I find it noteworthy that in a heated case like this, Barrett ended up in the middle of where the court currently is, and not off in the far right. I also tend to agree with the decision personally. I think all these things should be closed right now. But if clearly non-essential businesses are being allowed to operate at 25% capacity, I see no legal argument that houses of worship can't also operate at 25% capacity.

[S John]

re: Bush v. Trump

If it had not been for the Iraq War this would be an easy slam dunk for W being less terrible but it’s impossible to separate  Iraq from Bush’s legacy. The one thing that Trump has going for him is that he didn’t invade anyone. Perhaps Trump’s only redeeming quality as a president is that while he was interested in bluster and TV-ready displays of military pomp, he was too hard wired from a life in ‘business’ to not prefer attacking others verbally and economically rather than physically. He just didn’t strike me as interested in war - and besides he had thoroughly attacked Bush and Republicans in general on this point on his way to his campaign victory. 

Obviously, as they are both Republicans, there are many areas where they would overlap and where both men would have done the same thing, like cutting taxes and whatnot. What’s left is to weigh everything Trump has done that Bush would not have done (or did not do) vs the weight of the Iraq War. That is such a huge thing to have on the other side of the scale that I can hardly believe that I do actually think Trump has been worse.

Iraq was a terrible, terrible mistake. Youve got the humanitarian toll, which is not negligible. You’ve also got the ultimately false premise, the chain of events unleashed after the invasion - the initial insurgence, the sectarian civil war, the rise of ISIS. The fact that imposing democracy on a predominantly Shia country that had previously been controlled by a Sunni minority would almost inevitably mean the persecution of Sunnis within the Democratic government, creating a cycle of violence that still simmers today AND the US invasion actually created a nation that is almost destined to be forever in the Iranian sphere of influence due to the Shia connection. Ultimately a whole bunch of people died, a lot of money was spent, and the end result is likely a new friend for one of America’s most persistent enemies - Iran. Just really couldn’t have worked out much worse from a US perspective. But, while a major fuck up, it was more or less a regional fuck up. While the consequences are far reaching in many ways Iraq didn’t really ruin the whole world outside of locales in Western Asia and it certainly didn’t harm the US much in a domestic sense outside of the military members and families who had direct experience over there.

This is where I think Trump starts to make his case for sucking more. Bush was at least an internationalist in most of his thinking. He understood the importance and significance of our allies and of international organizations of all stripes. When I was younger I thought there was some allure to isolationism and kind of letting the rest of the world go fuck itself, but as I got older and realized the complexity of the world and the challenges faced by the human race I am totally convinced that global cooperation on a massive scale is the only way humanity can survive and thrive into the future. Climate change, nukes, etc, humans straight up will not survive if a country as powerful, influential, wealthy, and well-armed as the US just sits back and refuses to play ball. And I really do believe it’s an issue of survival for all of us. If we are to make it through the next 100- 200 years we need to get our shit together now.

So, even though I’ve been well past that isolationist phase for a long time, seeing the notion of American isolationism actually put into action by a US president in Trump’s typically crude and boorish fashion - it was a profound embarrassment and a very real set back on many fronts that I believe to be essential to a bright and livable future for all the inhabitants of this planet. It was worse than I thought it would be. The full extent of Trump’s damage isn’t immediately apparent, but he has proven that the US is only one election away from having someone in power who does not have any respect for international partnerships of any kind. It could ultimately signal the beginning of the end of the post WW2 order that has not always been awesome but has kept us all from becoming radioactive for 80 years. If that order crumbles, just looking at the state of the world right now, it certainly doesn’t look like we are poised to replace it with something better. For all our shortcomings, the world needs the strength and influence of a competent and altruistic America dedicated to democratic principles and international cooperation. Having the inmates running the asylum for 4 years was a shock to that system and I don’t know if it’ll ever really recover.

Add to that all of the xenophobia, conspiracies, and domestic strife that Trump has personally ginned up within the US itself and I see Trump as someone who may not have inflicted the direct and obvious type of damage that W did, but he deepened the divide domestically making it harder for us to come together at home while simultaneously doing a whole host of things that will really make it harder for the international community as a whole to get its act together on climate change, on nuclear arms treaties, on disease and pandemic mitigation - all of which are potentially existential threats for all humans.

Taking the US out of a leadership role and, in fact, casting doubt on the need to work together at all is something W did not and would never have done. W would not have stirred his supporters to the point of insurrection or refused to condemn white supremacists and insane conspiracy theories because they Said nice things about him. W would not have taken the word of Putin over the word of the entire US intel community. W would not have promoted xenophobia as means to motivate his voters. After 9/11 Bush was very clear that we were not against Islam - while Trump tried to ban Muslims via EO and rode into office by stoking fear of Mexicans. 

And one final way to look at it, imagine if W were eligible to run again in 2024 and we had the choice between a second W presidency or another round of Trump, who would you pick? I would be able to fully understand the hesitancy to pick Bush again. But Bush almost certainly would keep the ship afloat and try to maintain whatever international relationships Biden is able to salvage. On the other hand there’s no doubt in my mind that Trump v. 2 would be an utter shit show just like the first round and I’m not convinced that the country can actually handle another round without irreparable damage - we may have irreparable damage already and it’s just too early to see it clearly.

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, Week said:

Yes he definitely is. He's just an old school piece of shit republican instead a Neo-Qrazie Republican.

Agreed, but that is a rather important distinction to make when a fascist is in the White House and wants to do away with democracy. Take a step back and look at who was the main enemy in the 2020 election? When the ability to elect anyone other than Trump was on the line, it makes sense to work with anyone who wants to stop the lurch to authoritarianism from becoming a free fall into fascist lunacy.

John Kasich is who he always has been, and now that the 2020 election is over, he not only helped to defeat Trump, he also helped elect a President and a Party who are openly pledged to oppose things like his abortion ban. The power to impose a right wing agenda has been vastly diminished for the next two years, and the possibility of Trump bringing on a fascist government is also greatly diminished. For the price of a few minutes of unity on display at the convention, the message sent to the people of America was worth it. That message was that even an "old school piece of shit republican" who wants draconian abortion bans is against Trump's personality cult.

If Kasich, or others like him ideologically, want to help continue to bury Trumpism, they have a voice. Otherwise, their agenda is vastly diminished. I, for one, hope Old School Republicans like Kasich take back their party and kick out the cult followers. Unfortunately, it looks right now like they may be on the losing end of that struggle.

[Mindwalker]

Speaking of right-wing conservatives: Nice address by Ben Sasse.

Of course, he uses the term "wonderful Trump-appointed judges" unironically, and he should have given this speech 4 ys ago, but still.

Meanwhile, Marjorie has already tweeted about the Dems being "morons". Gee, and I had totally believed her contriteness before the vote!

[Morpheus]

Just the other day Greene had a tweet about Dem “pedos”, the myth about her “Q phase” is a hard sell when she is till doing it, and was elected for it, and helped incite a riot with that nonsense.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

49 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

Just the other day Greene had a tweet about Dem “pedos”, the myth about her “Q phase” is a hard sell when she is till doing it, and was elected for it, and helped incite a riot with that nonsense.

She's a bad liar. Note that she said in her speech that "9/11 happened." She never once addressed if she still thought it was a false flag attack. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Morpheus said:

Just the other day Greene had a tweet about Dem “pedos”, the myth about her “Q phase” is a hard sell when she is till doing it, and was elected for it, and helped incite a riot with that nonsense.

 

content warning: link describes how someone was charged with child pornography

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

12 hours ago, Fez said:

It did! Biden won! And remember how tight the margins were in a lot of those states. Wisconsin was won by 20,000 votes! You don't think those right-leaning white voters in the WOW counties weren't influenced by folks like Kasich setting up a permission structure that it was okay to vote for Biden?

I think it hurt Biden more in the down ballot races. I wish we could know--whilr turnout was high, were there voters who stayed home that could have swing some of those Senate seats? Right now we're relying on two dinos--literally two people to see things change. Kasich, if he was a good man, should have been giving that permission anyway. I'm thinking more about Congress---what was the impact dwhen Pelosi appearing to stonewall relief to Americans because she didn't want Trump to look good so close to the election? That's really what this argument was about before DMC tried derailing it with his usual pettiness. 

I think Biden has been doing good things by the way, but I don't hold the same opinion of Pelosi. She was bad at messaging and she hasn't showed to me any kind of aptitude for her job. She's sniped at the left, she's put junior members of her party down, and by some accounts, she's actively worked against them despite their agreeing to her behind closed doors requests to fall in line. 

Biden has been a a surprise for me and a much better leader than Pelosi. 

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

He only got the most votes of any candidate ever. But okay.

And nearly didn't get the Senate and even with control of the Presidency, and the congress, still can't pass a lot of what he wants. Where's all the Republican support? It was an empty victory. So keep courting the right and hope next year they can pass one more set of things on the next reconcilation? Hope it's not too watered down because we're relying on the right? Relying on a flip flop of votes from Manchins and Collins on a watered down version of what people need. 20 million unemployed. Dozens of millions facing or on the verge of unemployment. People with jobs suffering in the worst economy in our life times. Healthcare costs causing us to go bankrupt. But, hey, look at the scoreboard. Good guys won, right?

[Centrist Simon Steele]

12 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

I'm wasn't, and I not going to argue the DNC thing again, that is a pointless exercise since it is done and dusted and my fears that it would disincentivize the left from getting behind Biden went unrealized. What I will argue is that the idea that John Kasich is somehow not right wing because the republicans have moved further to the right. He still holds the exact same vile ideology that he always had, nothing has changed in that regard, and I would argue that outside of the Q folks, Trumpism is just Republicanism that took off the mask and got a shit spray tan. They didn't really move significantly further right, they moved significantly more crazy.

This motherfucker ruined countless lives on a global scale and we're just telling some goofy anecdotes about how he thought Trump's American carnage speech was a bit much? No fuck that, GWB is a criminal who should have been dragged in front of the Hague, or barring that never been allowed even a single moment of his life to go by where he is not reminded of what he did.

Do we know it didn't disincentivise the left in terms of those close Senate seats that would be making a huge difference right now and over the next two years?

[Mindwalker]

Just a reminder... They also have some Jan 6 clips that were new to me.

 

[DMC]

29 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

I'm thinking more about Congress---what was the impact dwhen Pelosi appearing to stonewall relief to Americans because she didn't want Trump to look good so close to the election? That's really what this argument was about before DMC tried derailing it with his usual pettiness. 

So your complaint about Kasich endorsing Biden at the DNC was "really about" Nancy Pelosi "appearing to stonewall" stimulus negotiations (even though it was actually McConnell who was stonewalling) in October?  I am deeply sorry for derailing your arguments by employing petty things like logic or basic common sense.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

So your complaint about Kasich endorsing Biden at the DNC was "really about" Nancy Pelosi "appearing to stonewall" stimulus negotiations (even though it was actually McConnell who was stonewalling) in October?  I am deeply sorry for derailing your arguments by employing petty things like logic or basic common sense.

It's not unlike you to read one sentence of a conversation between others, be completely lost, then blame the other person for your incompetence. I've learned to accept this about you.

[Mindwalker]

 

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

It's not unlike you to read one sentence of a conversation between others, be completely lost, then blame the other person for your incompetence. I've learned to accept this about you.

Oh, look, resorting to personal attacks again because you can't defend your arguments.  It's gotta be tough when people actually respond to what you say, sorry buddy!

BTW, your "real" argument is horseshit as well.  Pelosi worked with Mnuchin and was close to a deal up to about two weeks before the election.  It was McConnell who blocked any deal from happening.  You can look it up on news sites and such if you want, but I guess they're just "incompetent" too.