Mrstrategy Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 Was Rodrik Cassel a senile/unfit master at arms since Theon mentions that he old and his wits are partly gone and Rodrik Cassel himself says that he cant provide security for lady Hornwood when she hints about remarriage? An example of his senility is leaving Winterfell and specially Brandon and Rickon barely defended and taking most of the available men to fight ironborn https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rodrik_Cassel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 No. Theon is an unreliable narrator. Rodrik Cassel was a good Master at Arms and a passable Castellan of Winterfell. He was not senile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Rodrik was a good and honourable man, and he did not look for treachery. All his greatest defeats were due to sneak attacks and/or betrayal of his trust and expectations. Plus, part of his job was to train the next generation. Look at Robb Stark and Jon Snow, his main pupils, and I dare you to tell me that he was a worthless master-at-arms even after you take that aspect of his job into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said: No. Theon is an unreliable narrator. Rodrik Cassel was a good Master at Arms and a passable Castellan of Winterfell. He was not senile. Based on his defense of WF i strongly disagree with him being a passable castellan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Master at arms and castellan are completely different jobs. One is just literally training the garrison and the local nobleman. The other is governing an entire region. He was a good master at arms but a horrible castellan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 8 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Based on his defense of WF i strongly disagree with him being a passable castellan His defense of Winterfell was based on the assumption that the Ironborn would not attack so far inland. This is not an unreasonable assumption. The sea is the main source of strength for the Ironborn, so attacking inland where they can't retreat to their ships is not in their nature. Rodrik needed to repel their raids on the coast and he needed men to do it. Calling him senile for leaving so few men at Winterfell is entirely unjustified. All the men are off with Robb, so Rodrik takes those that he can. Rodrik's main mistake was not immediately being on his gaurd when the Bolton's sent men to "help" him retake Winterfell. Also, given that Maester Luewin was basically co-ruling alongside Rodrik, it seems really odd that folks are lumping all the rulership errors on Rodrik and assuming senility. So no. Rodrik was not senile. He had to repel Ironborn raids along the coast with a small and inexperienced garrison so he made use of what he had. Literally nobody though Theon could even take Winterfell, or that he planned too. So blaming Rodrik and calling him senile for not forseeing the unforseeable is not a reasonable argument in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 On 3/23/2021 at 2:26 PM, Nathan Stark said: His defense of Winterfell was based on the assumption that the Ironborn would not attack so far inland. This is not an unreasonable assumption. The sea is the main source of strength for the Ironborn, so attacking inland where they can't retreat to their ships is not in their nature. Rodrik needed to repel their raids on the coast and he needed men to do it. Calling him senile for leaving so few men at Winterfell is entirely unjustified. All the men are off with Robb, so Rodrik takes those that he can. Rodrik's main mistake was not immediately being on his gaurd when the Bolton's sent men to "help" him retake Winterfell. Also, given that Maester Luewin was basically co-ruling alongside Rodrik, it seems really odd that folks are lumping all the rulership errors on Rodrik and assuming senility. So no. Rodrik was not senile. He had to repel Ironborn raids along the coast with a small and inexperienced garrison so he made use of what he had. Literally nobody though Theon could even take Winterfell, or that he planned too. So blaming Rodrik and calling him senile for not forseeing the unforseeable is not a reasonable argument in my view. Man he left like 10 guards at WF to defend the heirs of the kingdom and took 900 men to TS. It’s a move so mind bogglingly stupid that I can’t even begin to explain why he left basically left an untakeable castle undefended. Theons guys had to climb an 80 foot wall, swim across a moat, and climb a 100 foot wall w nothing but rope and grappling hooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Man he left like 10 guards at WF to defend the heirs of the kingdom and took 900 men to TS. It’s a move so mind bogglingly stupid that I can’t even begin to explain why he left basically left an untakeable castle undefended. Theons guys had to climb an 80 foot wall, swim across a moat, and climb a 100 foot wall w nothing but rope and grappling hooks. Tywin made basically same thing. Or he took almost 40 k men with him when he invaded Riverlands. That means that if Ironborn had invaded very rich lands including major city instead of huge swamp he would been as great loser than that castellan of WF. But Tywin gambled and won when Rodric C lost his gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 I feel like the OP does not know what 'senile' actually means. Rodrik shows no signs of senility - no memory loss, confusion, personality changes, mood swings or difficulty concentrating. One can argue about whether Rodrik made mistakes. But the suggestion that these were caused by senility is not founded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 51 minutes ago, mormont said: I feel like the OP does not know what 'senile' actually means. Rodrik shows no signs of senility - no memory loss, confusion, personality changes, mood swings or difficulty concentrating. One can argue about whether Rodrik made mistakes. But the suggestion that these were caused by senility is not founded. "Senile" means "associated with old age". It is often (but not necessarily) used in association with the idea of "senile dementia" which is dementia associated with old age. The latter is what you have in mind I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 13 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said: "Senile" means "associated with old age". It is often (but not necessarily) used in association with the idea of "senile dementia" which is dementia associated with old age. The latter is what you have in mind I guess. Even granting this arguable point, there's zero indication in the text that old age is affecting Rodrik's judgement. Attributing things you consider mistakes to his age, without any evidence, is a bit ageist to be quite honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 18 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Man he left like 10 guards at WF to defend the heirs of the kingdom and took 900 men to TS. It’s a move so mind bogglingly stupid that I can’t even begin to explain why he left basically left an untakeable castle undefended. Theons guys had to climb an 80 foot wall, swim across a moat, and climb a 100 foot wall w nothing but rope and grappling hooks. Again, Rodrick had limited men and resources to fight the Iron Born, whom he knows generally fight near the sea and rarely go inland. You are flat out wrong to call him stupid for not predicting the extremely remote possibility of losing Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Loose Bolt said: Tywin made basically same thing. Or he took almost 40 k men with him when he invaded Riverlands. That means that if Ironborn had invaded very rich lands including major city instead of huge swamp he would been as great loser than that castellan of WF. But Tywin gambled and won when Rodric C lost his gamble. It appears Tywin still left guards at the Rock, which is why neither Balon or Robb ever attempted to attack it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Could be that Jory and Beth Cassel are working for Varys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 10 hours ago, mormont said: Even granting this arguable point, there's zero indication in the text that old age is affecting Rodrik's judgement. Attributing things you consider mistakes to his age, without any evidence, is a bit ageist to be quite honest. Ageism, to me, is a sin from someone else's religion. I have a suspicion that Ser Bonifer can still kick ass despite his age, but it would not be irrational for other readers to suspect otherwise. That said, I am aware of no particular evidence that Ser Rodrik was ever any sharper than he is in the books. I can't even find the Theon quote. Anyhow, Theon is a far bigger fool than Ser Rodrik, and a villain to boot. I have no desire to take Theon's side against the good man he helped destroy. I hope things work out for Rodrik's little daughter Beth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Megorova said: Could be that Jory and Beth Cassel are working for Varys. Jory is dead IIRC. I hope Beth is not working for Varys. Maybe she flew away on the Dragon of Winterfell that no-one believes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 He seemed fine as master at arms. As castellan not really. I don't think his age had anything to do with it but leaving the Stark boys virtually undefended was an epic blunder. In his haste to meet the attack he neglected his first duty, as Theon predicted he would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 On 4/10/2021 at 8:00 AM, Nathan Stark said: Again, Rodrick had limited men and resources to fight the Iron Born, whom he knows generally fight near the sea and rarely go inland. You are flat out wrong to call him stupid for not predicting the extremely remote possibility of losing Winterfell. Given that he lost the castle, the kings heirs and his life because he made the exact decision I'm criticizing him for, it's fairly safe to say he made a bad decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 On 4/10/2021 at 4:17 AM, Loose Bolt said: Tywin made basically same thing. Or he took almost 40 k men with him when he invaded Riverlands. That means that if Ironborn had invaded very rich lands including major city instead of huge swamp he would been as great loser than that castellan of WF. But Tywin gambled and won when Rodric C lost his gamble. He had 35k men he took into the riverlands and left his navy and ostensibly garrisons to protect against the IB, whose king we know doesn't think Lannisport or CR are takeable. Given that Tywin didn't lose his castle, his life (to the IB) and his heirs, I'd say he made a more appropriate gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Given that he lost the castle, the kings heirs and his life because he made the exact decision I'm criticizing him for, it's fairly safe to say he made a bad decision. I think we call that 20/20 hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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