The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[IFR]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, that kind of thing is pretty normal. Certain people here don't seem to understand what literary criticism is or that reviews aren't just written to praise stuff

What I think makes your case interesting is the magnitude of dedication exhibited here. You get on this ride knowing that it is one that you are almost certainly not going to enjoy, and you know it is one of great length.

A professional critic reading something they dislike is one thing. Remuneration in the form of (no doubt scandalously insufficient) wages serves as some mitigation. Or if you are one of those unfortunate compulsive souls that must complete a book, no matter how rancid to the taste it proves to be, and that compulsion overrides your will - that is another thing. Or perhaps you're with friends and want to kill a few hours and you mock a bad movie for fun. That, too, is something else.

But in this case you are dedicating an irrevocable and significant chunk of your life (dozens, perhaps hundreds, of hours) to some emotionally aggravated plane of existence. You are anchored to this displeasure, a lot of which may stem from your incomplete understanding of the work in question (due to only having read a fraction of it), and you propose to proceed forth in displeasure.

I'm not saying this is wrong at all. But to me it is an almost Dostoyevskian psychological idiosyncrasy to publically self-flaggelate in this fashion. 

In other words, I don't understand it. But if this is really something you want, I guess I hope you do get the most out of it. Have fun!

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I keep forgetting you're still early in the book. So yeah, keep reading/listening.

Not looking forward to that episode, to be honest. Unless I'm confusing things, Rand's first meeting with Elayne is a cheesy, clichéd meeting with the peasant secretly and accidentally sneaking into the castle of the princess - which definitely isn't something I'd consider a good plot device. But then, I might misremember the episode.

29 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Look at the map. It's a big land with swaths of sparsely populated regions. I do criticize this decision by RJ, because it seems strongly inspired by Middle-earth, without firm explanations other than the civilization is in a slow decline. But to your question, being such a large land, army movements are not always easy to track. RJ actually makes it a point that armies with clever commanders can move undetected. The Eye of the World and New Spring don't show much of this simply because warfare isn't a major plot point in those books, but in later books, definitely. But even in TEotW, the Whitecloaks have an entire legion in Andoran territory, and the Queen doesn't seem to know about it. I don't believe we're told how far the Aes Sedai aid force got, but it's possible for them to have heard news of Malkier's fall from travelling people, or had Warders that moved on far ahead, and then turned back with no one of importance being the wiser.

That doesn't really properly explain away things for me ... Tar Valon itself is a pretty big city, with lots pf people living there, among them travelling folks, merchants, etc. In a world where I'm to believe that Floran Gelb telling a story in one inn is going to spread within an hour through the entire city the obvious fact that the Amyrlin is sending a hundred Aes Sedai plus Warders to Malkier - which, at the time, wouldn't be something she would want to keep secret - couldn't be kept secret. Instead, it would spread far and wide long before the Amyrlin realizes that it might look better if the White Tower never sent a force to help the Malkieri.

29 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

If they don't know about Malkier, why would they know the truth about who the Aes Sedai are? I said already how they get their news.

That was hyperbole on my part. But I don't have the impression the backwater folks know much about Malkier.

[Werthead]

I feel this project may have been enhanced by comparative analysis with Adam Roberts' much-discussed, hardcore literary criticism review of the first eleven books in the series (spoilers: they did not fare well), but alas he removed it from the Internet (it can be found in his book of literary criticism, though).

It was the fantasy equivalent of that mock-book of serious critical film theory applied to the career of Steven Seagal, and only moderately less funny.

(as much as I am a fan of the series, it's very much not one to withstand the kind of hardcore criticism you'd apply to, say, Joyce or, in the SFF sphere, Wolfe or Le Guin)

[Lord Varys]

In the meantime, I've continued the audiobook. Perrin and Egwene were just captured by the Whitecloaks. The entire episode with the travelling folk was pretty good, actually, and I also enjoyed the guys hooking up with Elyas.

The meeting with the Whitecloaks is a little bit too convenient for my taste, especially the way Perrin is captured. I also don't get why they look for a hiding place rather than just try to leave. The Children weren't coming from every direction, so they should have been able to evade them, especially in the night. After all, they were not looking for anyone.

Such things are pretty vexing - could have been easier if they had shown up at night or they had been running into their camp while trying to flee the ravens.

The whole episode about Perrin considering to use his axe to put Egwene out of her misery if push came to shove was utter horseshit.

[Lord Patrek]

Just want to point out that teenagers/young adults acting stupid is a fact of life.

In any era.

Fantasy or not.

 

[polishgenius]

20 hours ago, IFR said:

You get on this ride knowing that it is one that you are almost certainly not going to enjoy, and you know it is one of great length.

To be fair, not liking the book/thinking the book is bad doesn't mean not enjoying the ride.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lord Patrek said:

Just want to point out that teenagers/young adults acting stupid is a fact of life.

In any era.

Fantasy or not.

It depends. I mean, Rand and especially Mat being complete morons is almost a running gag.

They actually see Thom getting himself killed (apparently) facing a Myrddraal ... a Myrddraal that finds them pretty much immediately after they arrive in Whitebridge. And then their priority in Four Kings is eating and hanging out with people rather than, you know, safety. Again, these people are not hunted by mortal enemies, they are hunted by literal monsters and demons and what accounts as the devil himself. It makes little sense that they are not more cautious after everything they have been through.

I get it that Mat has issues with the dagger and that they are still adolescents. They can make mistakes. But they cannot really behave as if they were not hunted by supernatural forces.

I enjoyed the stay in Four Kings. Jordan creates a lot of tension there and it works pretty well ... but it could have been more subtle. Saml Hake could have been less obvious about his intention to rob them, just as Hawol Gode could have been less obviously a Darkfriend. A missed opportunity in that place was to have a resident Darkfriend there rather than going with the idea that a Darkfriend from Whitebridge would be persuing them.

After all, Rand and Mat travelled rather slowly, spending time on all those farms and stuff. Four Kings is a trading place located at a crossroads, meaning the news about Rand and Mat should have long reached Four Kings long before the boys arrived there. It also seems pretty stupid that the Gode fellow would actually look for the boys personally at every inn in the town in so clumsy a manner that Rand hears the serving women talking about that.

I'm also not sure if it makes much sense that Mat juggling and Rand playing the flute could get lots of customers into the inn in a mere couple of hours. Four Kings is a pretty large town with a lot of inns, and presumably the other inns would have other forms of entertainment. This is not a backwater place, either, and if you enter an inn you usually stay there to eat and drink - you don't go out into the rain and talk to an army of friends and acquaintance that two boys are giving mediocre entertainment.

This whole thing would have worked better if they had arrived in the morning and/or if they had spent a couple of days in Four Kings.

[Lord Varys]

I'm in Caemlyn now. The journey on the road wasn't bad. There was tension and all, but the structure of the novel is way too simple. Again, inantile springs to mind as a word.

Let's imagine The Lord of the Rings having narrative after the break-up go like this:

1. Take a ride to the next village or walk there.

2. Go to an inn.

3. Have weird/evil people at the inn, escape at the last moment.

4. Continue with point 1.

We have that plot starting with Baerlon, continuing with Whitebridge, the villages between Whitebridge and Four Kings, Four Kings, the villages after that, the last village from the chapter of that name, and in Caemlyn (although there they actually go to a specific inn where they have reason to find help)

That's how TEotW does it. And that's just lazy writing and completely stupid characters.

I mean, you can do that once, especially if another character sent you to a specific inn (like Thom did) but go repeatedly with the 'I don't want to sleep out in the open' nonsense when EVERY SINGLE TIME (!!!) you stay at a fucking inn you barely escape with your lives it really stretches credibility.

Not to mention that this is lazy writing. An author should come up with better plot devices than this.

[David Selig]

Your complaints are getting ever more petty and illogical. They slept in inns without problems plenty of times on the road to Caemlyn.. Also, It was a freaking winter, quite cold one too. If they had slept outside every night, they'd most likely have died of pneumonia.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Your complaints are getting ever more petty and illogical. They slept in inns without problems plenty of times on the road to Caemlyn.. Also, It was a freaking winter, quite cold one too. If they had slept outside every night, they'd most likely have died of pneumonia.

This is a structural criticism, not so much one where I treat the characters as if they were real people. I fault Jordan for his setting, the way he structured the narrative, not so much the characters for what they did. They are not real, after all, and I'm not treating them as if they were real persons.

Completely different issue:

Another thing that really hammers home the fact how regressive fantasy literature can be are the metaphysical ideas Loial shares with Rand at Caemlyn. This idea of the ta'veren and that the pattern shapes your life. The example Rand actually uses to hammer home the fact that destiny shapes your life is that some peasant cannot be a king ... unless he is ta'veren but even then (it seems to me at this point) he cannot really fight his destiny. The pattern changes and the peasant-destined-to-be-king can do whatever he wants ... he still will be king in the end.

This actually means that societal change isn't in the hands of the people, that states and governments cannot be shaped and formed and overthrown by indidivuals making choices, but that the pattern of the Wheel decides all that. Metaphysics isn't just weird in the gender department in his world, but they apparently also shape politics and the general societal framework. I expect the Wheel of Time and its pattern also rule economics. Hopefully the Wheel is going to take complaints when somebody is blaming the pattern for the recent inflation ;-).

This concept could have been incorporated into the story in a less regressive manner by not making it explicit that the pattern also shapes human societies and the places of people therein. In light of all that, one can actually understand and sympathizes with the Darkfriends, and especially Ishamael, because who wants to know/believe that his lot in life was due to some almighty pattern woven by a merciless Wheel? If that's your lot, then it might be much better if there was nothing at all.

[sologdin]

 he cannot really fight his destiny.

it's an ancient complaint--agamemnon complains of ananke at aulis, for instance.

[Ninefingers]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Let's imagine The Lord of the Rings having narrative after the break-up go like this:

1. Take a ride to the next village or walk there.

2. Go to an inn.

3. Have weird/evil people at the inn, escape at the last moment.

4. Continue with point 1.

 

You should try Modesitt on for size. It's similar to the above, except:

1. Take a ride to the next village or walk there.

2. Go to an inn.

2a. Eat brown bread with cherry conserve.

3. Have weird/evil people at the inn, escape at the last moment.

4. Continue with point 1.

[fionwe1987]

I'm less concerned with people sleeping indoors when it is winter (because I bet if they didn't, Lord Varys would be here calling them stupid for taking the risk of sleeping outdoors), and more with how RJ tried to get clever with the timeline, and didn't quite hit the landing. This is definitely one of the weaker parts of Eye of the World, to me. 

[oberonus]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm less concerned with people sleeping indoors when it is winter (because I bet if they didn't, Lord Varys would be here calling them stupid for taking the risk of sleeping outdoors), and more with how RJ tried to get clever with the timeline, and didn't quite hit the landing. This is definitely one of the weaker parts of Eye of the World, to me. 

its been a while, but what was the timeline error? was it that they have him do the same thing twice going down the road on the cart? 

[fionwe1987]

58 minutes ago, oberonus said:

its been a while, but what was the timeline error? was it that they have him do the same thing twice going down the road on the cart? 

It's not an error, just done in a hamfisted way, but yes. 

I'm all for nonlinear timelines, but they need to serve a purpose and they need to be well executed. This jaunt through the many towns of Andor doesn't do either, I feel.

[A True Kaniggit]

The thing that irritates me is how there aren’t multiple languages in use.

After 3,000 years everyone happens to speak one new language that descended from the “Old Tongue”.

Though the two languages don’t even have the same sentence structure. 

(yeah, I know. It would have been too complicated.)

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

The thing that irritates me is how there aren’t multiple languages in use.

After 3,000 years everyone happens to speak one new language that descended from the “Old Tongue”.

Though the two languages don’t even have the same sentence structure. 

(yeah, I know. It would have been too complicated.)

I always took the books to be the English translation of the "New" tongue. They don't call their language English, and there some very commonly English words that are studiously avoided because they recall our world too much.

That said, there not even being dialects that are hard to understand, just accents, is obviously BS. Even if we take at face value that the Aes Sedai kept the Westlands to one language, and the Seanchan just picked up the Imperial Language when Hawkwing's army invaded, 1000 years should have had plenty of drift. And there's no reason for the Aiel go speak the New tongue at all. 

In fact, given their connection to the Age of Legends, the Aiel continuing to speak a different dialect of the Old Tongue itself would have been very plausible, and something RJ would have taken up if he had any ability with linguistics at all.

 

[A True Kaniggit]

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I always took English to be the translation 

Edit:Yeah. You brought up most of my points after your edit. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

I struggled to finish book 1.

Few months later, bored and needing something to read on my daily train commute to uni, I tried book 2 and couldnt put the series down. At this point (1999) book 8 was out.

[Rippounet]

28 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I struggled to finish book 1.

Yeah, same here. I distinctly remember thinking that it was a poor copy of the beginning of Lord of the Rings. Of course, the main character doesn't get power(s) thanks to a ring, there's a female Gandalf, the party is made of teenagers and not hobbits... etc, but the whole thing nevertheless seemed to be shooting for the same atmosphere.

I think I started really getting into it around book 3 or 4.