The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[williamjm]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's pretty open, since you cannot really *know* that something/somebody is not Shadowspawn, no?

I'm not convinced about that argument. The Shadowspawn are all pretty distinctive, I don't think Aes Sedai can convince themselves that a random human assailant is actually an unusually good looking and short trolloc.

You would also have a lot of leeway, presumably, defining what's a threat to your life. Not to mention defining what constitutes 'using the One Power as a weapon'.

There's definitely a bit more freedom to be creative with interpretation there, but sometimes it's just going to be easier to have someone with a sword around to hit things.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, A True Kaniggit said:

See my post above.

That is the quote I was thinking of.

Shiiit, I grew up with that kind of saying, though I don't recall a number being given. 

[fionwe1987]

4 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

This is a disappointment of the series for me. That Jordan wants to show an egalitarian or possibly a society in which females lead, but doesn't really think about what that means in the broader sense.

I don't have a problem with Aes Sedai having warders, but there is no reason it has to be a man. Why? Yeah, sure men are generally stronger, but you're gonna have a Brienne of Tarth pop up every once in a while. Same for soldiers. There are lots of ways for women to serve, but they just don't. Commanding an army doesn't take brawn, just brains.

Little things like the Two Rivers boys having a hard time hurting women because of an old-timey sense of chivalry bothers me. The Village Council is men and they take care of the outward decisions concerning the village, more political in nature. The Women's Circle has another realm of authority that centers more on the moral fabric and well being of the village (with the implication that they rule supreme behind the scenes.)

I get that this is the theme of men and women - separate but equal and different. I just think he started with an interesting theory, but then didn't really explore it more than skin deep. So yeah, you see women in positions of power, ruling, etc, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it, men do men things and women do women things. And don't chalk it up to the times he was writing. I was rolling my eyes at this as it was being written. Maybe chalk it up to his generation and southern upbringing - maybe, I don't know.

Example from later cultures:

  Hide contents

The Aiel are a warrior culture and the women have a place here. Sort of. A Maiden can't have children, but it's fine if the men warriors do. A Maiden can't have a child, let her husband or sister wife take care of them and then go back to being a warrior? And speaking of sister wives, where are the brother husbands? So again, an interesting concept, but still mired in traditional male/female roles.

And channeling. Yep - men are stronger with the more powerful elements while women are nurturers and healers, the support role to the action hero of male Aes Sedai. It's a confusing message. Men and women are equal, just different and they balance each other out, but really it's just traditional male/female roles all over again and that feels inherently unbalanced. 

So I broadly agree here. What's actually think makes if worse is that it isn't just a failure of imagination (which is another way of saying he's a product of his times). He often complicates these limitations. Elayne does bond a warrior woman as her Warder, who does later become her military commander. Reluctantly, but brilliantly. 

The men do have weird chivalry. But they get called out on it. This line from Sulin to Rand, after he leaves her and his other guards behind, always stays with me:

Quote

I am the spear. When a lover came between me and the spear, I chose the spear. Some chose the other way. Some decide they have run with the spears long enough, that they want a husband, a child. I have never wanted anything else. No chief would hesitate to send me wherever the dance is hottest. If I died there, my first-sisters would mourn me, but not a fingernail more than when our first-brother fell. A treekiller who stabbed me to the heart in my sleep would do me more honor than you do. Do you understand now?

And Rand does truly struggle with this, but it's clear the theme of the books is to show that this is absurd. And in end, it is the last weakness that Rand needs to overcome to defeat the Dark One. 

Similarly, we hear of plenty of warrior women in history, including the Soldier Amyrlin who ends the Trolloc Wars, as the foremost General of the Light's armies. And the Seanchan throw another wrench by being a society where women and men are in all walks of military life, and there's no expectation these women won't marry.

I think the real issue is that he's more comfortable as an author writing such scenarios in the history and background of the world rather than viewing it through the lens of a main character. He's perfectly able to show Egwene learning politics from Siuan. Why not have her learn military strategy from Bryne at the same time? Give what is coming, that makes no sense from the perspective of any of those three. 

Heck, Siuan and Bryne's relationship would have worked so much better if it was based on the foundation of them exchanging their knowledge and understanding of the political and military arts that they're both masters of. 

Things like that would have made the books much better. Much less beholden to the new, in-world stereotypes RJ was creating, complicating them instead of just exploring them in the surface.

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And Jordan's women seem to be all the same. I mean, so far pretty much all women are the same. There is little difference between Nynaeve and Egwene aside from Egwene wanting to be an Aes Sedai and Nynaeve not wanting that. Else they are very much the same character. And Elayne could basically be their sister, too. They are all the same.

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I should have been more precise there. Elayne basically acts like one of the peasant girls when she is uncertain or contrite. Her mother realizes she climbed the tree, and then she acts like a peasant girl, arranging her dress, hiding the leaf in her hair, etc. A princess is dressed. She doesn't dress herself. She has servants for that.

Andoran nobility doesn't have that level of snootiness, though. They do marry commoners often, and there's not the same level of stratification between Nobles and commoners as in Tear or Cairhein. Elayne's behavior makes perfect sense. 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The folks at the Two Rivers aren't as thick/stupid that they do not know that a larger world is out there and that very important and powerful people live there, no?

When Nynaeve catches up with the gang at Baerlon she still has some justification for doing what she does - but not later at Caemlyn where she, for instance, interrupts Moiraine claiming she would frighten the boys. Which is both stupid and presumptuous since at this point it is quite clear the Dark One is after the boys - meaning they should be afraid and are definitely not going to be kept safe by some Wisdom woman from a backwater village who too stupid to hone her own innate magical powers - and the boys have made it clear repeatedly that they want to stay with Moiraine and go to Tar Valon.

But they don't care. They don't even pay taxes to their nominal queen. They're independent and have no particular respect for positions of power elsewhere. They don't feel the boot of those powerful people because the leaders of Andor are content leaving them alone. 

It's naive that Nynaeve doesn't know how powerful women might expect peasants to behave. But totally logical that she's naive to this. She's never experienced interaction with this kind of power differencial. And she's used to being the top dog, and fighting to be the top dog, since she was a teenager. 

She's doing exactly that here. Covering her insecurity by boldly displaying anger and imposing rules for others to follow to let them know she has authority.

It is a brittle and shallow kind of power, but in her village, it worked because she had unique skills which made her valuable. She hasn't yet learned that in the world outside, she has nowhere near that level of authority. And Moiraine is being patient with her, which she's reading right now as weakness and continuing with her behavior. 

Why's this hard for you to see?

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But if we go back to Emmond's Field then both Rand and Egwene told their respective families that they wanted to join the Aes Sedai, so Nynaeve had no right to interfere with any of that. She isn't their legal guardian, and nothing indicates that the boys or Egwene had to ask for Nynaeve's permission before leaving the village.

Yes. She is exceeding her authority. Massively. That is what Nynaeve does. It is intensely annoying. And then it charms you when you realize that while she's being bossy to cover up her insecurity, she's also fiercely determined to keep up those responsibilities she forces herself to take up. She's a bully but a protective one. Overbearing, annoying, infantalizing but not malicious. 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense to have women who think they should be in charge, who think their men need a strong hand or guidance or whatnot ... but you actually have to have a connection to and authority over a man to behave in this manner. You have to be his mother, his sister, his wife, or another close relation. If you are just a friend it starts to get odd.

Hardly. You have no one in your life who isn't a relative who takes on responsibility for you forcibly, and annoys the fuck out of you and is way too in your business, but they're not odd or awful, just very very given to being this way. 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And Jordan has pretty much all his women think and behave in this manner. They are basically all Olenna Redwyne.

Again, this isn't true at all. Egwene is right now in a very different place. Authority is far from her mind. She wants to learn and be free and do something of value, and she's excited she has the chance. What's Olenna Redwyne about that? 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

 

[Gertrude]

17 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Things like that would have made the books much better. Much less beholden to the new, in-world stereotypes RJ was creating, complicating them instead of just exploring them in the surface.

 

Honestly, this is what frustrates me. Yes, I'm a fan of the series. I also think it had so much more potential. That's where I think the execution falls short - it doesn't match what he thinks he's writing. This is, obviously just my opinion. And maybe I should just enjoy what is there, but it's so close to being a whole lot better that it's hard to ignore the things that weigh it down.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, williamjm said:

I'm not convinced about that argument. The Shadowspawn are all pretty distinctive, I don't think Aes Sedai can convince themselves that a random human assailant is actually an unusually good looking and short trolloc.

Yes, I forgot that Darkfriends are not numbered among the Shadowspawn.

14 hours ago, williamjm said:

There's definitely a bit more freedom to be creative with interpretation there, but sometimes it's just going to be easier to have someone with a sword around to hit things.

Considering that the Aes Sedai also swear not to lie ... but still can twist words easily enough. I guess they could, if pushed, also use the One Power to stop, hinder, or mess with people as long as they are convinced they are not using it as a weapon. If you define a weapon as something that causes you pain, draws blood, or hurts you permanently then they should be able to do a lot of things in this regard.

We see how intimidating the Aes Sedai can be when the gang leave Baerlon in book 1.

I don't think they actually need Warders to be save on the streets.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Andoran nobility doesn't have that level of snootiness, though. They do marry commoners often, and there's not the same level of stratification between Nobles and commoners as in Tear or Cairhein. Elayne's behavior makes perfect sense. 

Obviously, Jordan didn't mention this in the first book nor did he portray Elayne as if she was half a commoner. Her mother is highborn, her father is highborn, Morgase's commander of the troops, the guy she should marry, is a nobleman.

Elayne is described as a princess and is given the demeanor and behavior of a princess ... until she isn't, which is bad writing. In my memory, this gets much worse when we see her later at Tar Valon.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

But they don't care. They don't even pay taxes to their nominal queen. They're independent and have no particular respect for positions of power elsewhere. They don't feel the boot of those powerful people because the leaders of Andor are content leaving them alone. 

They still should know who and what they are - backwater peasants. Nobody said they should view lords and ladies as their rulers or masters, simply as more powerful people. And, of course, they all do realize that their land is part of the kingdom of Andor after they leave the Two Rivers, just as they start to see the size of proper towns and cities. That should impress them and put them in awe ... but it doesn't, which makes no sense.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It's naive that Nynaeve doesn't know how powerful women might expect peasants to behave. But totally logical that she's naive to this. She's never experienced interaction with this kind of power differencial. And she's used to being the top dog, and fighting to be the top dog, since she was a teenager.

It makes no sense for her to think her childish remedies can impress or influence Moiraine once she actually knows what Moiraine can do. Just as she should not think her opinion on things still matters. Does your opinion on monsters and powers you consider mythical matter when you meet people who know actually fight them?

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

She's doing exactly that here. Covering her insecurity by boldly displaying anger and imposing rules for others to follow to let them know she has authority.

But she doesn't have any authority and should realize this. The people around her should immediately tell her to shut up because she knows nothing of importance, but nobody does that. They all allow her to pretend what she says or thinks still matters, but it doesn't. And everybody should know that.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It is a brittle and shallow kind of power, but in her village, it worked because she had unique skills which made her valuable. She hasn't yet learned that in the world outside, she has nowhere near that level of authority. And Moiraine is being patient with her, which she's reading right now as weakness and continuing with her behavior. 

It is not just Moiraine, the boys, Thom, and Egwene should tell her that she has nothing of substance to offer.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes. She is exceeding her authority. Massively. That is what Nynaeve does. It is intensely annoying. And then it charms you when you realize that while she's being bossy to cover up her insecurity, she's also fiercely determined to keep up those responsibilities she forces herself to take up. She's a bully but a protective one. Overbearing, annoying, infantalizing but not malicious.

You twist things around in a bad attempt to defend this book as good writing. When I point out that the boys behave like morons in Baerlon and Shadar Logoth then Moiraine isn't a mother and Nynaeve has forgotten for a couple of minutes that she is a protective bully.

Consistently written, neither Nynaeve nor Moiraine would have ever let the boys out of her sight, especially not twice.

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Again, this isn't true at all. Egwene is right now in a very different place. Authority is far from her mind. She wants to learn and be free and do something of value, and she's excited she has the chance. What's Olenna Redwyne about that?

Egwene isn't as bad as Nynaeve, but she also interferes with things the boys do and think.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that the Aes Sedai also swear not to lie ... but still can twist words easily enough. I guess they could, if pushed, also use the One Power to stop, hinder, or mess with people as long as they are convinced they are not using it as a weapon. If you define a weapon as something that causes you pain, draws blood, or hurts you permanently then they should be able to do a lot of things in this regard.

We see how intimidating the Aes Sedai can be when the gang leave Baerlon in book 1.

I don't think they actually need Warders to be save on the streets.

But they do. Their warders can straight out lie for them. They can, and do, send their Warders into danger so they can justify their use of the Power. The bond also literally gives strength to both the Aes Sedai and the Warder.

And most of all, Warders are a pair of eyes who can communicate the presence of danger to their Aes Sedai very quickly and non-verbally. It's also very useful to have someone who can locate you, and whom you can locate, from thousands of miles away. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously, Jordan didn't mention this in the first book nor did he portray Elayne as if she was half a commoner. Her mother is highborn, her father is highborn, Morgase's commander of the troops, the guy she should marry, is a nobleman.

Yes. Obviously he didn't give you a history book detailing the nuances of Andoran nobility to read before you encountered even one. That would have been bad writing. What seems to be going on here is bad reading. You meet characters in a fantasy world and expect them to behave based on your understanding of such people in our world, rather than saying "hey, this is different. Wonder why? Maybe the author will, over the course of many books, explain that". And absolutely, sometimes that explanation is not great, but right now, that ain't your critique. You're saying Elayne isn't a snooty princess and this is bad writing. Well, as you find out later that she's a better cook than Nynaeve, can sew clothes and has no trouble accepting wearing plain clothes and temporarily giving up her powerful position the Tower, and that her mom did the same, as did every woman who became Queen... Are you going to continue to insist this is a long line of badly written processes or accept that this world is different, and has no obligation to meet your expectation of princesses being definitionally snooty and clueless about common chores?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Elayne is described as a princess and is given the demeanor and behavior of a princess ... until she isn't, which is bad writing. In my memory, this gets much worse when we see her later at Tar Valon.

What is the "demeanor of a princess"? You do realize this varies from nation to nation even in our world, right?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They still should know who and what they are - backwater peasants. Nobody said they should view lords and ladies as their rulers or masters, simply as more powerful people. And, of course, they all do realize that their land is part of the kingdom of Andor after they leave the Two Rivers, just as they start to see the size of proper towns and cities. That should impress them and put them in awe ... but it doesn't, which makes no sense.

Ummm it does, straight out, so I'm confused by your insistence they don't feel awe when they leave the Two Rivers. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It makes no sense for her to think her childish remedies can impress or influence Moiraine once she actually knows what Moiraine can do. Just as she should not think her opinion on things still matters. Does your opinion on monsters and powers you consider mythical matter when you meet people who know actually fight them?

Her "childish" remedies use the One Power. Subconsciously, but she's confident in her Healing abilities for a reason. Her remedies always work. 

As for people who fight monsters, sure Nynaeve can see Moiraine fighting them. But she's not sure she isn't one of them, or a different kind of monster. Why should she defer to her?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But she doesn't have any authority and should realize this. The people around her should immediately tell her to shut up because she knows nothing of importance, but nobody does that. They all allow her to pretend what she says or thinks still matters, but it doesn't. And everybody should know that.

In your experience, does every person who assumes authority they do not have immediately realize this and give it up voluntarily?

And she does matter. She has the authority that comes from years of bossing the kids around. It makes complete sense to me that they're still intimidated by her. It takes time for them to break free, which is the logical writing choice. What you're asking for her is unrealistic and really had characterization.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not just Moiraine, the boys, Thom, and Egwene should tell her that she has nothing of substance to offer.

Thom doesn't interact with her much, but I don't know why the boys and Egwene would tell her to buzz off a few days after leaving the Two Rivers. Especially when it hasn't set in at all that they aren't going back. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You twist things around in a bad attempt to defend this book as good writing.

No. I'm criticizing your critique. And you're unable to rebut that except by going back to your standard line that the books are bad writing. Except the ways you say they're bad aren't really the issue. There's plenty wrong with the books. The Two Rivers folks not immediately defying Nynaeve and telling her to go to hell isn't one of them.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

When I point out that the boys behave like morons in Baerlon and Shadar Logoth then Moiraine isn't a mother and Nynaeve has forgotten for a couple of minutes that she is a protective bully.

And? Are we implying that either of those types never fuck up?

The substance of your critique seems to be these characters do dumb things, and they should all be super geniuses who never make a single mistake. I don't enjoy reading characters like that, and they're not realistic, and that certainly isn't good writing.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Consistently written, neither Nynaeve nor Moiraine would have ever let the boys out of her sight, especially not twice.

Are we talking Baerlon as the first time? Moiraine has no interest in keeping them locked up there, and Nynaeve wasn't around to attempt it. So not sure what your claim of twice refers to here. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Egwene isn't as bad as Nynaeve, but she also interferes with things the boys do and think.

So?

[Werthead]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be - you also have Padan Fain and Mat's obsession with the dagger as characters evoking Gollum.

Robert Jordan's original ideas for the series were completely bananas (he conceived the original idea for the series around 1978 and actually started writing it in 1984, after Tom Doherty asked him for a project to follow up his Conan novels). It was a lot more grimdark, for lack of a better term, with much more overt sex and violence. The Dark One, Sa'khan, was actually a biological being, just a very powerful and possibly immortal one, who dwelt on another planet/in another universe and was trying to invade Earth through portals. He was one of a whole set of powerful beings (called gods though they weren't really), and other ones would play a role in the story. The setting was more overtly post-apocalyptic, with multiple Blights all over the planet and the main continent (Haddon Mirk was originally a Blight, for example). The Forsaken were half-human/half-demon hybrid servants of the Dark One. The One Power was not as codified and was called just "Power." Male channellers of Power were literally gelded as well as gentled, and gentling/stilling was carried out through a process akin to lobotomising.

Rand was originally Rhys al'Thor and was conceived as an older, maybe middle-aged ex-soldier who wouldn't have to do all the usual "young hero learning" stuff because was already experienced. It looks like RJ decided to change that relatively early on. Rhys was a bit of a horndog, having multiple affairs with different women. He also had a lot of stuff happening to him, which RJ eventually realised was way too much and split into four separate characters: Rand, Mat, Perrin and Dannil Lewin (who was later Fatty Bolgered out of the narrative in the EotW edit when it was clear he didn't have anything to do; that's why there's one more person in the party on the original cover of EotW than there should be).

The original outline also had a lot of elaborate world-building dedicated to religions: the Way of the Leaf, the Children of the Light and some of the philosophies of the Ajahs all started as separate religions with their own customs and priesthoods. It's not clear why he decided to ditch religion altogether in the final series. 

Tom Doherty viewed this outline as interesting, but he thought it was a mistake to veer so hard away from the established epic fantasy paradigm. He thought it was better to start "closer to home" and move the story away from the cliches rather than just go mad from the start. So RJ changed it to be "more like Lord of the Rings," which rapidly became "too much like LotR." The enormous success of EotW encouraged him to move away from that format almost immediately.

Incidentally, I think this is why RJ responded so extremely positively to A Game of Thrones: he saw GRRM as doing something more like he wanted to do, at least with a more mature audience, and was happy someone was having success doing that. I think he felt that Tor put training wheels on him at the start and although he was able to overcome and move away from that later on, he was left with this reputation of the first book being a Middle-earth rip-off, which was never his intention.

[David Selig]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously, Jordan didn't mention this in the first book nor did he portray Elayne as if she was half a commoner. Her mother is highborn, her father is highborn, Morgase's commander of the troops, the guy she should marry, is a nobleman.

Elayne is described as a princess and is given the demeanor and behavior of a princess ... until she isn't, which is bad writing.

What's your exact complaint here? That princesses would never try to fix their clothing a bit in such situation? Because this seems absurd to me. Her mother summoned her to come right away. Was she supposed to go yo her room, summon her maids and spend 15 minutes getting redressed when she already seen disobeying Morgase's orders by plenty of witnesses?

Typical princesses don't hang out in the palace gardens with only their brothers for escort and don't dress the wounds of armed strangers who fell in their gardens with their own hands anyway. Plus we get plenty of other hints in the first book that Andoran nobles are a lot less snooty and arrogant than the normal for historical analogues. Like Thom, who is not a noble, being Morgase's lover for a long time. Or that Gawyn told Rand that Elayne should marry a man from Two Rivers, a backwater with no nobles.

This all seems extremely nitpicky, frankly. If you complain about Elayne's behaviour being unrealistic for a heir to a throne, there is a plenty of better cases for this later on, like how she is completely unbothered traveling around the world without servants, sleeping in wagons and cramped inns, being an amazing cook and the cherry on top are her amazing tightrope walking skills.

 

[fionwe1987]

24 minutes ago, David Selig said:

What's your exact complaint here? That princesses would never try to fix their clothing a bit in such situation? Because this seems absurd to me. Her mother summoned her to come right away. Was she supposed to go yo her room, summon her maids and spend 15 minutes getting redressed when she already seen disobeying Morgase's orders by plenty of witnesses?

Typical princesses don't hang out in the palace gardens with only their brothers for escort and don't dress the wounds of armed strangers who fell in their gardens with their own hands anyway. Plus we get plenty of other hints in the first book that Andoran nobles are a lot less snooty and arrogant than the normal for historical analogues. Like Thom, who is not a noble, being Morgase's lover for a long time. Or that Gawyn told Rand that Elayne should marry a man from Two Rivers, a backwater with no nobles.

This all seems extremely nitpicky, frankly. If you complain about Elayne's behaviour being unrealistic for a heir to a throne, there is a plenty of better cases for this later on, like how she is completely unbothered traveling around the world without servants, sleeping in wagons and cramped inns, being an amazing cook and the cherry on top are her amazing tightrope walking skills.

 

Yeah he's going to go ballistic with the circus, which remains one of the worst settings RJ ever invented. Thought wasn't the "tightrope" walking really walking on a broad invisible platform around the rope? I don't remember, because I usually snooze through those chapters in my re-reads. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

34 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yeah he's going to go ballistic with the circus, which remains one of the worst settings RJ ever invented. Thought wasn't the "tightrope" walking really walking on a broad invisible platform around the rope? I don't remember, because I usually snooze through those chapters in my re-reads. 

At the start, then I think she removes the ‘platform’

[A True Kaniggit]

32 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

At the start, then I think she removes the ‘platform’

You’re correct. She eventually starts doing it without the weave of air.   

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

At the start, then I think she removes the ‘platform’

How very un-princess like of her! I need the smelling salts to overcome this horror.

[David Selig]

I love the circus chapters in Book 5. The whole Elayne - Nynaeve plotline in Book 5 is by far the funniest part of the series for me. And Elayne on the tightrope is one of the funniest parts, even though it's obviously completely implausible. Uno saying she has a "face like a bloody queen" before recognizing her and then being outraged that she is actually a queen-to-be and is *gasp* showing her legs in public always cracks me up.

 

 

 

[fionwe1987]

14 minutes ago, David Selig said:

I love the circus chapters in Book 5. The whole Elayne - Nynaeve plotline in Book 5 is by far the funniest part of the series for me. And Elayne on the tightrope is one of the funniest parts, even though it's obviously completely implausible. Uno saying she has a "face like a bloody queen" before recognizing her and then being outraged that she is actually a queen-to-be and is *gasp* showing her legs in public always cracks me up.

 

 

 

I will be coming up on this in my re-read soon. I have no hope it will read better, though. The comedy is fine, it just feels way too long. 

[A True Kaniggit]

I suppose queens can’t be ugly according to Uno?

 

[Poobah]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that the Aes Sedai also swear not to lie ... but still can twist words easily enough. I guess they could, if pushed, also use the One Power to stop, hinder, or mess with people as long as they are convinced they are not using it as a weapon. If you define a weapon as something that causes you pain, draws blood, or hurts you permanently then they should be able to do a lot of things in this regard.

We see how intimidating the Aes Sedai can be when the gang leave Baerlon in book 1.

I don't think they actually need Warders to be save on the streets.

I mean all that is well and good but it doesn't stop the assassin or other threat that you don't see. That's why you have a highly trained Warder whose life is pretty much literally tied to yours to be obsessively paranoid for you. As we see with Moiraine at the start sometimes an Aes Sedai might not want to reveal that she's a powerful magic user and scare all the nearby commoners shitless, but still might want to y'know not get mugged or otherwise attacked for being a lone woman so a big guy with a sword is a pretty useful tool to have, and means you can avoid getting your hands dirty. Plus using the power is a pretty major escalation, a sword is something anyone can use in theory, it's a threat but something people can understand, whereas the power is a terrifying invisible force of magic to almost everyone so having to use it to protect yourself from all who mean you harm is a great way to scare even more people into wanting to do you harm: Verrin chews the girls out at the start of book 3 for definitely not attacking some whitecloaks to scare them off, because there are ways to handle situations that don't make you and by reflection your entire organisation look like a bunch of dangerous scary witches that more people would do well to want to assassinate. In other times what Moiraine does as they exit Baerlon in book 1 might be cause to get her in serious trouble in the tower, certainly it'd be major political ammunition on account of how scaring the shit out of half a town isn't good PR for the White Tower.

Honestly a better argument would be that Aes Sedai should have to learn to use a weapon of their choice in training to a high level.

[David Selig]

18 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I suppose queens can’t be ugly according to Uno?

He meant she was brave and composed under pressure like a queen.

[fionwe1987]

22 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Honestly a better argument would be that Aes Sedai should have to learn to use a weapon of their choice in training to a high level.

Agreed. At least, it doesn't make sense the Green, Red, Grey and probably Blue Ajah don't mandate this as well. 

It just struck me that Lord Varys is basically making the Red Ajah's argument about Warders. And one of the more sensible Reds later makes the case that they need Warders even more, given what they do. 

And we know from Moiraine that Lan had saved her life countless times, including once when it came very close and he literally ran with her body for a long while so she could get Healing.

I just don't get the attitude that you don't need help. Magic is well and good, but an extra pair of eyes, or more, as the Greens do, with enhanced stamina, with better senses, with the ability to sense Shadowspawn... That's a great deal.

The Warder bond is probably the Aes Sedai's only major innovation with the One Power since the Breaking. Even with artificially limiting it's use to men, they've achieved a lot because of it. I just don't get the argument against the bond.

[David Selig]

The customs for weapon training and use by women are weird in WoT. At first it seems Jordan is going for a more typical and realistic pre-firearms fantasy setting where armies are exclusively male. But then we see that among the Aiel and the Seachan there are numerous female fighters and they don't seem to have any problems defeating male opponents despite their strength disadvantage. One thing that seem particularly implausible to me is that in the Borderlanders women aren't taught how to use weapons, even the Saldaean noblewomen, who ride with the army on campaigns and can't expect any mercy from the Trollocs.

[fionwe1987]

5 hours ago, David Selig said:

The customs for weapon training and use by women are weird in WoT. At first it seems Jordan is going for a more typical and realistic pre-firearms fantasy setting where armies are exclusively male. But then we see that among the Aiel and the Seachan there are numerous female fighters and they don't seem to have any problems defeating male opponents despite their strength disadvantage. One thing that seem particularly implausible to me is that in the Borderlanders women aren't taught how to use weapons, even the Saldaean noblewomen, who ride with the army on campaigns and can't expect any mercy from the Trollocs.

I think they do wield knives and such, but no heavy weaponry. 

But this also seems to be a modern thing. If you look at history, there is Amaresu and the Sword of the Sun, mentions of multiple female generals, and so on. The Westlands seem to have layered on a patina of patriarchal gender norms on top of a mostly matriarchal system, which the Aiel, the Seanchan, and to a lesser extent, the Sea Folk don't seem to suffer from .