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MCU: a very special Hawkeye Christmas…


Ser Scot A Ellison
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First two episodes were fine. I note that Matt Fraction got an exec credit and presumably therefore is getting paid but since the opening credits are basically someone tracing David Aja's artwork (not to mention the numerous scenes composed after panels he drew) he should be getting at least the same treatment. And payment.

The twist is surely obvious at this point? Jack is just a henchman and Kate's mother is the mastermind villain.

She isn't particularly interested in Kate's attempts to 'unmask' Jack because she already knows who and what Jack is. She made a pile of money in 'security' after Kate's dad died. Armand disliked and distrusted her and the show made a deal of this without ever giving a clear reason. It's pretty clear.

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5 hours ago, mormont said:

First two episodes were fine. I note that Matt Fraction got an exec credit and presumably therefore is getting paid but since the opening credits are basically someone tracing David Aja's artwork (not to mention the numerous scenes composed after panels he drew) he should be getting at least the same treatment. And payment.

The twist is surely obvious at this point? Jack is just a henchman and Kate's mother is the mastermind villain.

She isn't particularly interested in Kate's attempts to 'unmask' Jack because she already knows who and what Jack is. She made a pile of money in 'security' after Kate's dad died. Armand disliked and distrusted her and the show made a deal of this without ever giving a clear reason. It's pretty clear.

That actually makes a ton of sense.  I was wondering what the deal was with Armand not liking Kate's mom but I didn't really think of her being the villain because it seemed so blatantly obvious that it would be Lalo Salamanca.

It was so obvious that, in anything other than a Marvel show/movie, I'd think it was a bait and switch.  I honestly think it'd be even more interesting if it turns out that he isn't in on it and it's all her mom.

Edited by briantw
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Whether Jack is a henchman or some sort of partner with Kate's mom seems kinda irrelevant, regardless of it being obvious or not.  Her mom as the bad guy? That doesn't seem to be what's going on, unless they're setting up for future seasons or shows.  Unless you're suggesting she's the real power behind the Tracksuit Mafia?  She sent her people to steal the Ronin gear, even though Jack was supposed to simply be buying it? I guess that's a classic big bad trope? Of course, you aren't incorrect on how they seem to be telegraphing this though.

I mean, this all feels very straightforward. That Clint and Kate are involved with the Tracksuits is entirely due to foiling their heist, and Clint's apparent Ronin history with them.  With the Echo involvement, I'd much rather see them being backed by Kingpin and bring that aspect back into the MCU.  

Let the "Kate's Mom Is A Bad Guy" be some sort of stinger to gear up for a different project...

Edited by Jaxom 1974
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I'd much rather see them being backed by Kingpin

I'm almost sure this is the case. There was a line about Ronin effecting the local crime lord that made me think of him. Plus Echo worked for him in the comics.

I don't see a connection between the mom / Jack and Fisk/Tracksuit guys. They were there for "the watch," not the ronin stuff. It'll be super contrived if everything is connected. Hawkeye saved Kate and as Ronin ran afoul of her mom and Kate ended up in the Ronin suit? It's too much, in my opinion.

Set up Fisk and reveal him near the end. His men are what brings the two main characters together. While separately the mom and Lalo are the main villains who are defeated at the end of the season. Also Yelena presumably has to show up somewhere.

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59 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Unless you're suggesting she's the real power behind the Tracksuit Mafia?  She sent her people to steal the Ronin gear, even though Jack was supposed to simply be buying it?

 

I think they're two different factions. As RumHam said they seem to be after the watch not the suit, but even past that, just on a more meta level, Echo isn't a simple baddie-baddie and I'd expect there to be someone else in the series to fill that role. Might be Fisk, I suppose, but I did also think they were hinting pretty strongly at Kate's mum being nefarious. 

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58 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm almost sure this is the case. There was a line about Ronin effecting the local crime lord that made me think of him. Plus Echo worked for him in the comics.

I don't see a connection between the mom / Jack and Fisk/Tracksuit guys. They were there for "the watch," not the ronin stuff. It'll be super contrived if everything is connected. Hawkeye saved Kate and as Ronin ran afoul of her mom and Kate ended up in the Ronin suit? It's too much, in my opinion.

Set up Fisk and reveal him near the end. His men are what brings the two main characters together. While separately the mom and Lalo are the main villains who are defeated at the end of the season. Also Yelena presumably has to show up somewhere.

Kate’s mom could have hired the Tracksuit Mafia to get the watch for her. She doesn’t necessarily have to run them to have used them for a smash and grab.

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39 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Kate's mom (Eleanor) 

Thanks I couldn't remember her name.

I'd just rather they were two separate groups of baddies, like I said it seems less contrived that way. With an Echo show in the works and Daredevil returning setting up Fisk as the main NYC criminal guy makes a ton of sense. 

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4 hours ago, RumHam said:

Thanks I couldn't remember her name.

I'd just rather they were two separate groups of baddies, like I said it seems less contrived that way. With an Echo show in the works and Daredevil returning setting up Fisk as the main NYC criminal guy makes a ton of sense. 

It would also be great to get some villains who aren't trying to conquer the world/universe like Kingpin.  The MCU could absolutely use some smaller scale stories that don't end with a giant CGI fight for the fate of the planet.

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19 minutes ago, briantw said:

It would also be great to get some villains who aren't trying to conquer the world/universe like Kingpin.  The MCU could absolutely use some smaller scale stories that don't end with a giant CGI fight for the fate of the planet.

Totally. They say the fate of the world/galaxy/multiverse is at risk presumably to create stakes and tension, when it does the opposite because you know that is absolutely never going to happen. When they make it personal like Civil War it's so much more impactful. 

I'd be great to see a Daredevil movie where he just loses and Kingpin takes full (behind the scenes) control of NYC. Even if that's not going to happen I could go into a Daredevil movie thinking that it could. When Eternals hits Disney+ and I finally watch it I'm not gonna think "oh I wonder if the earth is going to be destroyed in this one." 

Edited by RumHam
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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Totally. They say the fate of the world/galaxy/multiverse is at risk presumably to create stakes and tension, when it does the opposite because you know that is absolutely never going to happen. When they make it personal like Civil War it's so much more impactful. 

I'd be great to see a Daredevil movie where he just loses and Kingpin takes full (behind the scenes) control of NYC. Even if that's not going to happen I could go into a Daredevil movie thinking that it could. When Eternals hits Disney+ and I finally watch it I'm not gonna think "oh I wonder if the earth is going to be destroyed in this one." 

I was loving Shang-Chi up until the last act when it, as they always do, became a giant CGI fight for the fate of whatever.  You're making a goddamn martial arts movie.  Just have a kickass fight between Shang-Chi and his father.  The fate of the world doesn't need to be at stake there.  The best fight in the movie was when it was just Shang-Chi kicking ass on a bus.  Martial arts movies don't need to be super complex.  They just need awesome fight scenes.

That was why I loved the Daredevil Netflix show.  It was essentially a martial arts show, and it had several awesome fights that were incredibly memorable, like the hallway fight and the prison escape.  If you've seen the show, you instantly know what I'm talking about because those scenes were fucking rad.  Give me more of that in the MCU.

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4 hours ago, Kalsandra said:

I figured that jack was an adaptation from the comic of iirc Jacques duquense, aka the swordsman. Who in the comics has some history with Barton. 

Well yeah, it’s the same name and the same look (I think?). But given Sylvie the Enchantress from Loki we know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

But yes I assumed he was a bad guy in some respect. And Kate’s mum is definitely sus in a ‘I’ve seen a lot of tv I know how this goes’ kind of way. Probably there’s also some as yet uncovered criminal mastermind in the wings too. Don’t let them ruin Christmas Hawkeye!

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6 hours ago, john said:

Well yeah, it’s the same name and the same look (I think?)

The Swordsman is supposed to look like a better built Errol Flynn whereas Jack looks more like a 1970s soap opera lead who never accepted the glory days are over, but they were clearly going for 'looks like comics Swordsman', yeah.

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Fandango reports Amy Pascal confirming a new Tom Holland Spiderman trilogy will happen, in the MCU.

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Amy Pascal: This is not the last movie that we are going to make with Marvel – [this is not] the last Spider-Man movie. We are getting ready to make the next Spider-Man movie with Tom Holland and Marvel, it just isn't part of… we're thinking of this as three films, and now we're going to go onto the next three. This is not the last of our MCU movies.

 

Edited by SpaceChampion
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