MCU: a very special Hawkeye Christmas…

[mormont]

32 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

It’s really amazing how long they’ve managed to not quuiiiite decanonise Netflix/ABC shows officially, but if Echo has her own show and that was clearly meant to be Kingpin, then it’s hard to see how they wouldn’t now. I didn’t ever get round to watching Daredevil S3 so I don’t how things were left with him … I guess it was 2018 we last saw him and now it’s 2023? Did this episode speak of this ‘Uncle’ as running things now or was it just the flashback?

The series is set in December 2024 according to the showrunner:

https://www.cbr.com/hawkeye-mcu-timeline-clarification/

There are strong and credible rumours about 'uncle' being Kingpin, but Marvel delight in implicitly encouraging those kind of rumours and sometimes they turn out to be wrong, but sometimes they turn out to be true. Bluff and double bluff. Think about the Kang stuff in Loki. Marvel winked at that so much that people started to think it couldn't be true. It fits the use of Echo though. And who else could 'uncle' be? It's posed as a meaningful reveal...

Also possible for next episode - confirmation that Jack and Clint know each other. The episode cuts out at exactly the right moment for that to work.

This was a fun episode and I like that Echo's origin addresses the darker side of what Clint got up to as Ronin. Kate is going to find out about that shortly. (Possibly from Jack?)

I still think there are further shady revelations to come about Eleanor too. We never do see what exactly happened to Derek, you know, and they were arguing about money...

[DaveSumm]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

There are strong and credible rumours about 'uncle' being Kingpin, but Marvel delight in implicitly encouraging those kind of rumours and sometimes they turn out to be wrong, but sometimes they turn out to be true. Bluff and double bluff. Think about the Kang stuff in Loki. Marvel winked at that so much that people started to think it couldn't be true. It fits the use of Echo though. And who else could 'uncle' be? It's posed as a meaningful reveal...

I nearly said “yea but they’ve never done it in a trolling way before” … then I remembered the X-Men Universe tie-in that turned out to be a boner joke. 

I got Kingpin vibes certainly, but maybe I’m projecting as I guess it was just a hand and a laugh.

[DaveSumm]

Trying to Google whether it was D’Onofrio and remembering that I only come here to discuss this stuff cos the rest of the internet is a sea of bullshit clickbait when it comes to the MCU.

[mormont]

 

10 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I nearly said “yea but they’ve never done it in a trolling way before” … then I remembered the X-Men Universe tie-in that turned out to be a boner joke. 

I got Kingpin vibes certainly, but maybe I’m projecting as I guess it was just a hand and a laugh.

Let’s not forget that ‘Spider-Man: Far From Home’ was essentially a giant troll about introducing thee multiverse, which Marvel then did introduce in Loki, and which will now feature in the next Spider-Man film. Bluff and double bluff, like I said. And it all feeds those delicious clickbait sites which means tons of free publicity!

[john]

I’m a little confused about the plot now. So, the tracksuits were after a watch but happened to find the ronin suit and echo, whose dad was killed by ronin, happens to be the boss, so they divert from whatever the planned operation was to run around trying to capture Clint and Kate in the most cackhanded way possible? (I mean, it’s Manhattan, they would have got arrested a dozen times over) Then they check Mrs Bishop’s computer and find that Kaz the interpreter works for Bishop Security? then Jacques decides to pop out with the stolen ronin sword?

I guess my question is what the hell are they all playing at, they’re all the worst criminals ever.  And if it is Kingpin his organisation is a joke.

[Corvinus85]

Obligatory - the Uncle is Mephisto.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

18 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I nearly said “yea but they’ve never done it in a trolling way before” … then I remembered the X-Men Universe tie-in that turned out to be a boner joke. 

I got Kingpin vibes certainly, but maybe I’m projecting as I guess it was just a hand and a laugh.

The boner joke still gets under my skin.  What a waste.

[polishgenius]

 

It would be madness for it not to be Kingpin at this stage but like y'all have said they've done things like that before so who the fuck knows.

Alaqua Cox is great as Echo I agree. Seeing how they bring her into her more heroic/anti-heroic role, which I assume they will eventually go for, if Barton really did kill her dad will be interesting (but I suspect they might twist that and make it Kingpin pinning it on Ronin).


 

20 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Trying to Google whether it was D’Onofrio and remembering that I only come here to discuss this stuff cos the rest of the internet is a sea of bullshit clickbait when it comes to the MCU.

You ain't kidding.

[john]

8 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

(but I suspect they might twist that and make it Kingpin pinning it on Ronin).

Oh yeah, that’s a good thought. I was wondering about that because I thought part of the point of Ronin was Clint going to the other side of the world to get away from everything not messing about with small time NY gangsters.

[mormont]

8 hours ago, john said:

Then they check Mrs Bishop’s computer and find that Kaz the interpreter works for Bishop Security?

No, he works for this Sloan company. Otherwise pretty much.

 

[Jaxom 1974]

I want to believe Ronin killing Maya's dad is a feint and it was a set up by the Kingpin...more along the lines of her comic origin, albeit sans Daredevil...but Clint's wife mentions the Tracksuits when he's explaining why he isn't coming home right away in the second episode...

[Werthead]

16 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

It’s really amazing how long they’ve managed to not quuiiiite decanonise Netflix/ABC shows officially, but if Echo has her own show and that was clearly meant to be Kingpin, then it’s hard to see how they wouldn’t now.

They decanonised Agents of SHIELD: the events of the final season are impossible to make work with the Snap. The writers note they kept asking for scripts or an outline of the films so they could make something work with them, but Feige's team refused to give them any, and it was made clear that they had no power to force the issue any more (unlike early in SHIELD's existence when Loeb would get Perlmutter to get Feige to talk to them). Basically Perlmutter being forced out post-Age of Ultron ended the film division's requirements to work with the TV division.

However, Feige has noted that he personally liked the Netflix shows and seemed to imply he considered them worthwhile and good series even if he wasn't involved with them (implying he did not consider the same of SHIELD and Inhumans); clearly the team also had a lot of time for Agent Carter, which is the only one of the ABC shows implied to be canon (by them using the same Jarvis actor in Endgame).

A reasonable solution would be to reuse the Netflix actors for the characters without necessarily pushing the button on confirming if the series and the stories themselves are canon or not.

[DaveSumm]

55 minutes ago, Werthead said:

They decanonised Agents of SHIELD: the events of the final season are impossible to make work with the Snap.

That was more a case of the show de-canonising itself though, the Feige-verse left it alone and AoS managed to tangle itself up (the producers saying ‘actually we’re still pre-snap’ implies there still is a snap).

55 minutes ago, Werthead said:

clearly the team also had a lot of time for Agent Carter, which is the only one of the ABC shows implied to be canon (by them using the same Jarvis actor in Endgame).

…which leads to a frustrating chain of canon; if Jarvis is canon, what about the tie ins between Agent Carter and AoS? 

55 minutes ago, Werthead said:

A reasonable solution would be to reuse the Netflix actors for the characters without necessarily pushing the button on confirming if the series and the stories themselves are canon or not.

That would be my guess, to carry on and not require any previous knowledge from the audience. I’m surprised how many people seem to want the same actors but a different canon, that’d just be way too confusing in my opinion, if Charlie Cox was talking about events that clearly didn’t or couldn’t have happened in the Netflix-verse.

[Myrddin]

17 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

She blew it out of the water.  She really has gravitas.

Agreed. Hard to believe this is her first real acting gig.

I also didn't realize she was deaf and an amputee in real life. CGI being what it is these days, I assumed her leg to be SFX. Looking forward to seeing her career take off.

[Myrddin]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

 

A reasonable solution would be to reuse the Netflix actors for the characters without necessarily pushing the button on confirming if the series and the stories themselves are canon or not.

 

With the multiverse, they're free to just port the Netflix actors over in any capacity they want without breaking canon on anything. They need nothing more than a handwave to imply the previous show events were from a different multiverse reality. Rumors abound of a masked vigilante in Hell's Kitchen, an invincible man in Harlem, and a tough PI all over Manhattan. NO Hand sightings at all. Bullseye and Electra can be reintroduced. MCU can move on. 

Best of all, D'Onofrio's Kingpin would still be at large.

(I don't have an opinion on Finn Jones continuing. He did well as a supporting character; he just needs to get some serious training to be able to share the same stage as Simu)

[RumHam]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

clearly the team also had a lot of time for Agent Carter, which is the only one of the ABC shows implied to be canon (by them using the same Jarvis actor in Endgame).

I don't think we should read too much into that. They brought back JK Simmons as JJJ, but it wasn't an indication that the Maguire spider-man movies were canon. (though, yeah...)

Another example is Judi Dench in the Bond movies. And now I suspect D'Onofrio as Kingpin and Cox as Daredevil. 

[Leofric]

No reason that most of the Netflix shows couldn't remain canon.  If Fisk was alive during the Blip, it's not inconceivable that he could have taken advantage of a much depleted Justice system to finagle his release  from prison or even buy an appeal victory, especially if some of the witnesses against him were dusted by the Snap. 

Agents of Shield would be a little harder to incorporate, mainly due to the Inhumans angle which couldn't be ignored in the discussion of the Sokovia Accords in the MCU.    Them not being involved in the snap could be handled by having all their time traveling seasons happening pre-Snap.

[sologdin]

without breaking canon

i don't get the strict canonicalism that these debates encourage regarding narratives that everyone acknowledge as manifestly false. it's not like scripture wherein having the correct texts determines whether someone is consigned to perdition. folklore and mythology accumulate with multiple variants--we have multiple variants of ancient greek stories, say, and that's totally fine.

[RumHam]

45 minutes ago, Leofric said:

No reason that most of the Netflix shows couldn't remain canon.  If Fisk was alive during the Blip, it's not inconceivable that he could have taken advantage of a much depleted Justice system to finagle his release  from prison or even buy an appeal victory, especially if some of the witnesses against him were dusted by the Snap. 

He could get out of jail, I don't see how he goes back to being a mysterious shadowy criminal figure though. It'd also be weird that he was "Uncle" to the tracksuit mafia in 2007 totally parallel to what we saw of his criminal enterprise on Daredevil. 

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

I don't think we should read too much into that. They brought back JK Simmons as JJJ, but it wasn't an indication that the Maguire spider-man movies were canon. (though, yeah...)

It is worth noting that the writers and showrunners of Agent Carter are the exact same team who made Winter Soldier/Civil War/Infinity War/Endgame, so there may be more to it than that. Although that team has moved on (at least for now) from the MCU, so it remains in Feige's hand.