Football, a pussy gives me Wood.

[Consigliere]

Paying a premium for Rice might be worth it depending on the team doing the buying, what the transfer budget is, how many holes in the squad need to be filled and how many players could be offloaded to raise more money.

United need a major overhaul so blowing the budget (or most of it) on one player is not something I want to see - we keep doing that and instead of filling 4 or 5 gaps in the squad we end up filling two because we keep overpaying. "United premium" is just a nice way of saying "United stupidity".

Don't know enough about Arsenal's squad situation to say whether or not spending their transfer budget on one player would be a good idea.

Chelsea have been eyeing Rice for a couple of years now - he came through their youth academy as well. Chelsea has been good at getting decent fees for fringe players and they could sell RLC, Bakayoko, Gilmour. Drinkwater's contract is up at the end of the season so they will finally have him off the books. I'd say Chelsea are probably favourites to sign Rice but with Conor Gallagher (on loan at Palace) having a pretty great season too, they might be reluctant to fork over such a hefty fee.

[polishgenius]

I mean, West Ham may wind up a little disappointed. Rice is good but Bellingham is better, there are other well-regarded options abroad for cheaper, plus even in the league you've got Jacob Ramsey, a little more attacking but a premium ball-carrying box-to-boxer, plus Gallagher potentially taking that Chelsea slot. They think they're gonna get loads for him but they might end up like Palace, who seemed to spend years almost planning around rebuilding the squad via a huge fee for Zaha which simply never came. Which almost got them in trouble this summer when all the contracts of players needing replacing ran out at once.

[Consigliere]

West Ham won't wind up disappointed. I'm sure that much like Palace and Zaha, they'd much rather keep the player than get a payday. PL clubs are loaded. West Ham doesn't need the money.

[Spockydog]

How much is a Bellingham worth?

[baxus]

I don't see Rice staying at West Ham for as long as Zaha stayed at Palace. Also, let's not forget Zaha did leave Palace at one point.

[Consigliere]

I don't see Rice staying that long either but West Ham do have leverage to demand a big fee at least this year and next. They have an option to extend Rice's contract by a further year so effectively his contract runs through to the end of June 2025.

[Heartofice]

5 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Rice is not worth what West Ham would want. I hope United don't go anywhere near Rice. This would be another Maguire level fuck up i.e. paying 80-100m for a 40-50m player.

 

 

With United does the money paid actually matter? It doesn't matter if Maguire is a 40m player or an 80m player. It matters that he's playing like total dogshit. 

United could do very well with a team made up of £40m players. I'm sure they could over pay all day for every single player and not really notice. The issue is when you bring in players who don't fit a long term plan or are washed up over the hill paycheck seekers.

[Consigliere]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

With United does the money paid actually matter? It doesn't matter if Maguire is a 40m player or an 80m player. It matters that he's playing like total dogshit. 

United could do very well with a team made up of £40m players. I'm sure they could over pay all day for every single player and not really notice. The issue is when you bring in players who don't fit a long term plan or are washed up over the hill paycheck seekers.

Yes, the money matters. United are not a petro club and thus do not have unlimited funds. This was the same kind of argument that was being used to justify Barcelona's spending. I've said it before, if there's any club in the PL at the greatest risk to Barcelona themselves, it's United.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Yes, the money matters. United are not a petro club and thus do not have unlimited funds. This was the same kind of argument that was being used to justify Barcelona's spending. I've said it before, if there's any club in the PL at the greatest risk to Barcelona themselves, it's United.

It doesn't really make that much difference in the scheme of things though. The reason for United's poor recruitment isn't because they run out of money to spend on players, it's because they pick the wrong players and don't plan for the long term. 

Worrying about over paying for players is really just a matter of principal more than anything else, and an annoyance that you bought a mediocre player for a big price tag. The real issue is buying mediocre players who are simply not good enough and not realising it earlier. 

[Consigliere]

7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It doesn't really make that much difference in the scheme of things though. The reason for United's poor recruitment isn't because they run out of money to spend on players, it's because they pick the wrong players and don't plan for the long term. 

Worrying about over paying for players is really just a matter of principal more than anything else, and an annoyance that you bought a mediocre player for a big price tag. The real issue is buying mediocre players who are simply not good enough and not realising it earlier. 

It does make a difference and isn't just a matter of principle. Ask Barcelona. Funds are not unlimited unless you're a petro club with owners pumping in money to cover losses. United need to get away from this reputation of being willing to overpay. Smarter recruitment means not blowing the transfer budget on one player when there are numerous gaps to fill - Rice is not some generational talent either.

 

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

With United does the money paid actually matter? It doesn't matter if Maguire is a 40m player or an 80m player. It matters that he's playing like total dogshit. 

When I remember that there were some people claiming Maguire was better than VVD back when he joined United...

[Iskaral Pust]

United don’t seem anywhere close to financial implosion like Barcelona.  They’ve been wasting huge sums of money for a decade now without denting their profits.  They’ll only have to tighten their belts if the commercial sponsorships start to roll off without replacement.  They’re a less attractive proposition now for those because they’re less successful but they have a very large embedded fan base that guarantees media coverage, which makes them reasonably compelling for sponsors.

It’s also hard to gauge just how much United need.  When they added Varane, Ronaldo and Sancho it seemed like they only needed a DM to balance out the team (and had sacrificed that to bring in Ronaldo as an opportunistic addition).  Now they look like they need new starters at CB, RB, DM and striker (assuming Greenwood and Martial are effectively gone).  Could a better manager flip a switch on this squad and lead them back to better individual form and better cohesion?  Perhaps it’s just too late for most of this group.

At this moment. I would not take a single United player in Liverpool’s first XI.  Maybe Bruno as a back-up AM like Shaqiri, but I doubt he could adapt to the system.  City would probably say the same.  Probably Chelsea too.  (They would take a striker if any were actually playing & scoring)

As for Liverpool looking at Rice, we’ll probably add a MF and probably English to help us with the homegrown quota, unless we bring in a homegrown forward as Mane or Firmino (or even Salah) depart.  Milner is winding down his career, Ox must be in the last chance saloon, and the jury is out on whether to renew Keita (but good performances lately).  But I doubt that a VVD-sized bid for Rice makes sense.

edit: actually, I’d take Sancho ahead of Bruno as a back-up forward.  I forgot about him.

[Iskaral Pust]

Liverpool ground out that win against West Ham.  They’re a difficult opponent these days but I thought we had the balance of good chances (and we won on xG again — if only titles were handed out for that) even though WH had two clear cut chances.  Antonio is a real handful but didn’t get any great sights at goal — Alisson only had routine saves from him.  Liverpool’s high line is always the source of opponents’ best scoring chances but Klopp has decided he likes to play those odds because Alisson deals with most of them and that system increases our odds of creating goals from our high press and allows us to control possession and territory.

Both FBs played well, Keita was tidy and solid, and it’s bonkers how quickly Diaz has adjusted to the PL and this team — hopefully some more of his chances start finding the net.  Salah had a second consecutive poor game despite a rest midweek, but possibly because the opponent double covered him each time.  But his early miss was his own fault, and then his decision making was selfish as he was desperate for an atonement goal.  Mane was a good predator in the box again but still not good enough at link-up.

Liverpool were missing Matip, Thiago, Firmino and Jota against a difficult opponent.  If they had scored a second goal it would have been more comfortable late on, but they still managed the game pretty well.  They probably needed subs earlier, especially for Salah.

[polishgenius]

On Maguire: we can argue about over how much he's worth, for sure, but he still gets more stick than he deserves for mistakes that are often caused by him being failed by the system or by his defensive partners.

The same happens with AWB. Yeah, he has flaws, especially going forward, and he does make some lacadaisical plays out of defence too (did a couple times yesterday), but he frequently gets stick for things that happen because he's been left on his own to deal with more than his share. Like, yesterday was as extreme an example as we've seen yet of the distortion he causes in opponents: City weren't confident in leaving Grealish to dribble past him 1-on-1, so they set up to pass around him instead. And sure, you can knock his positioning sometimes, but when City are putting five players into his area of the pitch to get around him and he's dealing with that with no support whatsoever, and the ball then comes out of that clump and the one or two City attackers left in the middle nonetheless get a chance, I'm sorry, but I'm definitely laying the blame for that on Lindelof, McTom, Fred, Maguire and Telles.
I'd say Elanga too, but he's normally a solid defensive worker so I'm fairly sure his consitently positioning himself a few yards upfield of that clump without dropping to help was a tactical choice to try to exploit it, though it should have been adjusted once it was clear it wasn't coming to him that way often enough. 

[ljkeane]

21 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

The same happens with AWB. Yeah, he has flaws, especially going forward, and he does make some lacadaisical plays out of defence too (did a couple times yesterday), but he frequently gets stick for things that happen because he's been left on his own to deal with more than his share. Like, yesterday was as extreme an example as we've seen yet of the distortion he causes in opponents: City weren't confident in leaving Grealish to dribble past him 1-on-1, so they set up to pass around him instead. And sure, you can knock his positioning sometimes, but when City are putting five players into his area of the pitch to get around him

Er wait, what? Are you using yesterday's game as an example of Wan Bissaka doing well? I don't think he was primarily at fault as such but I don't think it was him causing 'distortion' in the City side either, they were clearly targeting United's right side. In fact I'd say it was the opposite of them being worried about Grealish's ability up against Wan Bissaka, they used the fact that United players were worried about Grealish to free up Silva, Cancelo and Foden around him.

[polishgenius]

6 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Are you using yesterday's game as an example of Wan Bissaka doing well?

 

I gotta be honest, if I'd meant that I'd have said it. 

 

5 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

they used the fact that United players were worried about Grealish to free up Silva, Cancelo and Foden around him.

Sure, but they did it almost exclusively right next to AWB. To play around him. The point isn't that AWB dealt with that well, but that he was abandoned to deal with it on his own. 

[Raja]

5 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Who do we have at the club who is better than Declan Rice?

The kid has just turned 23. He is going to be massive.

Partey is miles ahead of Rice, but I feel weird comparing the two as 1. They're different players and 2. Rice is young and can get better. Either way, the question isn't really if we have anyone better than Rice, we certainly need a midfielder but I don't think Rice is it, firstly because he would easily cost 50-80+ million, and I cannot see us spending that kind of money. In the summer the striker will be the first priority and I think most of our money will be spent on a striker.

Secondly, I feel like there are *so* many alternatives that we could get for cheaper - I don't think Rice is the kind of midfielder we need, he's improved from the straight up 6 that he was, but he's still not the 8 that we need, imo. In the current line up, he would be replacing Xhaka, and I think he would struggle playing that half space on the left that Xhaka occupies just as much as Xhaka currently does. We need way more of an 8 that Rice is currently, he's just the wrong player to play that space.

Edit - I'd take him for 20 million though!

[Spockydog]

13 minutes ago, Raja said:

Partey is miles ahead of Rice, but I feel weird comparing the two as 1. They're different players and 2. Rice is young and can get better. Either way, the question isn't really if we have anyone better than Rice, we certainly need a midfielder but I don't think Rice is it, firstly because he would easily cost 50-80+ million, and I cannot see us spending that kind of money. In the summer the striker will be the first priority and I think most of our money will be spent on a striker.

Secondly, I feel like there are *so* many alternatives that we could get for cheaper - I don't think Rice is the kind of midfielder we need, he's improved from the straight up 6 that he was, but he's still not the 8 that we need, imo. In the current line up, he would be replacing Xhaka, and I think he would struggle playing that half space on the left that Xhaka occupies just as much as Xhaka currently does. We need way more of an 8 that Rice is currently, he's just the wrong player to play that space.

Partey will be 29 in a couple of month's time, and anyway, I strongly question whether he is currently better than Rice. Maybe in Madrid he was, but let's be honest, he hasn't really been pulling up many trees in the Premier League.

Josh Kroenke has said that the business we've done in the past couple of windows will allow us to do something spectacular in the transfer market. We currently have just 17 registered PL players, and a dramatically reduced wage bill.

There is quite a bit of debt though, but I suspect our summer business will still surprise a lot of people. Especially if we get top four. There's no way we go into the CL without significant strengthening.

 

 

[Raja]

7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

 he hasn't really been pulling up many trees in the Premier League.

He had a less than stellar first season, but he's been excellent this season. I'd take him over Rice every single time. I don't disagree that we need a midfielder, but I think Rice is 1. Too expensive. 2. Not the kind of midfielder we need.

[Mark Antony]

Rashford wants to leave United due to lack of game time? Guy has been awful for like a year and a half. Can’t see him getting a move that would be a upgrade.