spoilers [Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If George has great things he may have done in his head then he should have written some of those down.

It's definitely possible that we would view Daemon differently if we had a few POV chapters from him.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's definitely possible that we would view Daemon differently if we had a few POV chapters from him.

Of course. But Gyldayn should have also given us ample material to recognize some genuine good or great acts of Daemon.

I mean, there are even some humane moments for Maegor in FaB. It isn't that hard.

[Rockroi]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

You can read a lot of things in between the lines that GRRM directly highlights -- the fact that Daemon could be both the best and the worst of men, a hero and a monster, and you never know what you're going to get. And you can see in his choice of how to end his days that there's a regret there too. That line he's alleged to have said, about having lived too long, reads very poignantly to me.

But how much have we been shown, so far, that Daemon can be "the best ... of men?"  I feel like the show may be front-loading the bad stuff so that there is this neat reveal of the humanity underneath, but I have seen so very little of that when compared to the beheadings, arrogance, use of brute force, and cheering the death of his nephew. The fact that he shows regret (or performance anxiety, whatever) doesn't really mitigate that (yet - its a big "yet").  

I think in the books (where I have seen him), there is more nuance, but so far the show is really downplaying it.  

 

[Rockroi]

One thing I find interesting here in House of the Dragon when compared to Game of Thrones is the use of competency.

In GoT, competency was generally seen as a mark of a villain.  Petyr Baelish and Tywin were the early baddies in GoT; we were warned over and over again by people that at Court, vipers rule and you could be destroyed by their abilities- all off the battlefield.  Even Varys, who is not strictly a villain, comes across as untrustworthy specifically because he is good at keeping and disseminating secrets and information.  

This all comes to a crescendo at the Red Wedding when Tywin and Walder Frey conspire to dismember the King in the North when all agree that the Freys are not the most able fighters.  As we are introduced to new characters, they tend to be competent and duplicitous - Lady Ollena, Maergery etc.  

Meanwhile, the most noble and most honorable characters are either utter idiots (Robert, Ned) or children (the Stark kids) and so have not developed into competent players at the game.  We follow people who are either destroyed by the Game or grow into it (again, the Stark kids, Sam, Dany).  

This is not a perfect theory, by any means.  Tyrion is fantastic at the game and generally good; Viserys and Joff are monsters and treated as such.  

House of the Dragon has changed that dynamic... maybe?  We see Otto Hightower as extremely competent and seems to have the best interests of the realm in his head (his daughter?  Er... maybe not so much).  The Grand Maester, Corlys Belaryon, even third-level characters like Lord Beesbury and Lord Strong genuinely seem like they are very capable and ... don;t seem too too evil (yet... big, big... yet).  Yes, there is Daemon who seems out-of-control, but so far I am intrigued by the intrigue and the hope that people who are smart will use their powers for good.

Its a naïve thought, but its still there... 

 

[butterweedstrover]

I don't mean to sound insensitive, and I am sure women who have been through labor might have had a different reaction, but watching the c section was so extra, it was so in your face, so obviously trying to jolt a reaction out of viewers, that I kinda laughed.  

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I don't mean to sound insensitive, and I am sure women who have been through labor might have had a different reaction, but watching the c section was so extra, it was so in your face, so obviously trying to jolt a reaction out of viewers, that I kinda laughed.  

The showrunners said that they showed that scene to many women beforehand to make sure it wasn't too much for the audience. I don't know if it worked out as intended, though.

[Ran]

There are going to be a wide range of reactions. I've seen women who hate it and women who praise it. For my part, I was transfixed when seeing it on the big screen. Sian Brooke's performance captured the agony and terror of it all... and the deep betrayal, being led to this by a person you loved, abetted by people you trusted.

[butterweedstrover]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

There are going to be a wide range of reactions. I've seen women who hate it and women who praise it. For my part, I was transfixed when seeing it on the big screen. Sian Brooke's performance captured the agony and terror of it all... and the deep betrayal, being led to this by a person you loved, abetted by people you trusted.

I agree, her facial reaction was great. Maybe it was the pacing and how quickly it all went down but the betrayal felt so sudden an unnecessary.

[C.T. Phipps]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course. But Gyldayn should have also given us ample material to recognize some genuine good or great acts of Daemon.

I mean, there are even some humane moments for Maegor in FaB. It isn't that hard.

I mean we have his humanizing moments in his suicide versus betraying Nettles.

9 hours ago, Rockroi said:

But how much have we been shown, so far, that Daemon can be "the best ... of men?"  I feel like the show may be front-loading the bad stuff so that there is this neat reveal of the humanity underneath, but I have seen so very little of that when compared to the beheadings, arrogance, use of brute force, and cheering the death of his nephew. The fact that he shows regret (or performance anxiety, whatever) doesn't really mitigate that (yet - its a big "yet").  

I think in the books (where I have seen him), there is more nuance, but so far the show is really downplaying it.

It's interesting you view it that way because what I got from the show is that Daemon is incredibly charismatic and managed to win the Goldcloak's undying loyalty. Also, that he is far more aware of the situation of the common folk than the High Lords who ARE constantly scheming against him. Everything he does is something they attack and they don't really have any alternatives.

I also think the "heir for a day" is presented as Otto putting the absolute worst spin on it and making political capital out of it when his king ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT NEED THIS. Daemon is aware Otto is trying to isolate the king from his friends and, sadly, succeeded.

Edited August 24, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Chancho]

13 hours ago, SeanF said:

Tyrants and genocidaires can still be sympathetic, if written well enough.

In the main series, every character of note ranges from being pretty ruthless, at one end, to being a sociopathic butcher, at the other.

i love a deal o lot of terrible characters on martin's story, his people usually got some mesmerizing depth, just not these 4, these  4 i like to seeing crashing and burning hard.

i have no simpathy for those aristocracy types, spoiled, selfish egomaniacs, that make the world burn because they too important.

[slant]

2 hours ago, Rockroi said:

One thing I find interesting here in House of the Dragon when compared to Game of Thrones is the use of competency.

In GoT, competency was generally seen as a mark of a villain.  Petyr Baelish and Tywin were the early baddies in GoT; we were warned over and over again by people that at Court, vipers rule and you could be destroyed by their abilities- all off the battlefield.  Even Varys, who is not strictly a villain, comes across as untrustworthy specifically because he is good at keeping and disseminating secrets and information.  

This all comes to a crescendo at the Red Wedding when Tywin and Walder Frey conspire to dismember the King in the North when all agree that the Freys are not the most able fighters.  As we are introduced to new characters, they tend to be competent and duplicitous - Lady Ollena, Maergery etc.  

Meanwhile, the most noble and most honorable characters are either utter idiots (Robert, Ned) or children (the Stark kids) and so have not developed into competent players at the game.  We follow people who are either destroyed by the Game or grow into it (again, the Stark kids, Sam, Dany).  

This is not a perfect theory, by any means.  Tyrion is fantastic at the game and generally good; Viserys and Joff are monsters and treated as such.  

House of the Dragon has changed that dynamic... maybe?  We see Otto Hightower as extremely competent and seems to have the best interests of the realm in his head (his daughter?  Er... maybe not so much).  The Grand Maester, Corlys Belaryon, even third-level characters like Lord Beesbury and Lord Strong genuinely seem like they are very capable and ... don;t seem too too evil (yet... big, big... yet).  Yes, there is Daemon who seems out-of-control, but so far I am intrigued by the intrigue and the hope that people who are smart will use their powers for good.

Its a naïve thought, but its still there... 

 

Think Otto is like a mix of Twin and Varys, this is based on the character feature where he talks about his network of spies. I think he does love his daughter, and Alicent has some idea about his grand schemes, because of the questions she asked her father. They seem to be working together to strengthen the position of the house in Westerosi politics. It seemed like she was confirming a plan as against being surprised when her father asked her to go to Viserys. 

You are right though, competent people are seen with suspicion for some reason in GoT. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean we have his humanizing moments in his suicide versus betraying Nettles.

A guy being depressed/'having regrets' when he basically kills himself, abandoning his children like he abandoned his 'Kingdom of the Narrow Sea', is still nothing that makes you a great or good guy. I daresay everybody has regrets in old age, especially when they feel death knocking at the door or seek it out actively.

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It's interesting you view it that way because what I got from the show is that Daemon is incredibly charismatic and managed to win the Goldcloak's undying loyalty. Also, that he is far more aware of the situation of the common folk than the High Lords who ARE constantly scheming against him. Everything he does is something they attack and they don't really have any alternatives.

There he is certainly not that bad - and he certainly is also a good general. But then - that's also nothing that makes you particularly great.

And with the City Watch I think the crucial factor there is that Daemon is the first Targaryen prince to serve in that capacity. It showed the watchmen that they mattered to the Iron Throne and this prince, specifically.  His personality would have helped, too, of course, but I imagine any prince drinking and partying with his men in that fashion would have been pretty popular.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

And supposedly she claims Vhagar after learning that Viserys rejected her. Harwin seems to be getting a big moment at the wedding and we might also see him earlier among Rhaenyra's suitors.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The reports indicate more that Daemon is kind of mentor for Rhaenyra in the sense that he shows her that she, as a royal woman, can still enjoy sex and her own sexuality even if she has to marry for dynastic purposes. In the show Rhaenyra is apparently struggling with her role as a royal womb, rejecting suitors left and right because she doesn't want to marry. Their relationship isn't presented as something where the, well, groomed and abused child ends up marrying her abuser ... but they won't have ever a real relationship until both are ready for it. Which will only be after Laena's death.

Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

The antagonist of the tale is Milady de Winter.  By any objective measure, she is no worse than the Musketeers, perhaps somewhat better.

She murders people, on the orders of the French first minister.  They murder people, for reasons of pique or “honour.”  Athos is a common murderer, and D’Artagnan a rapist. They rob tradesmen and abuse servants. And, they seduce married women, before blackmailing them for money.

[dsjj251]

On 8/23/2022 at 9:04 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The wiki says that Rhaenys's mother was Jocelyn Baratheon, sister of Boremund Baratheon and Borros is Boremund's son, making him Rhaenys's first cousin.

The Subtitles say it is Boremund who asked for her favor. So he would be her uncle. 

[dsjj251]

On 8/23/2022 at 9:36 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

"At the tournament, Rhaenys Targaryen refers to Borros Baratheon as cousin".

I guess someone made a mistake somewhere.

who are you quoting here ?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

The Subtitles say it is Boremund who asked for her favor. So he would be her uncle. 

I don't know, maybe whoever did the subtitles made a mistake?

 

1 minute ago, dsjj251 said:

who are you quoting here ?

The Game of Thrones wiki.

[Ran]

Yes, the GoT wiki is wrong. The knight who asks for Rhaenys's favor is the same person who swears fealty to Rhaenyra, and he explicitly says he is Boremund Baratheon.

I believe Borros Baratheon appears later.

[C.T. Phipps]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A guy being depressed/'having regrets' when he basically kills himself, abandoning his children like he abandoned his 'Kingdom of the Narrow Sea', is still nothing that makes you a great or good guy. I daresay everybody has regrets in old age, especially when they feel death knocking at the door or seek it out actively.

I feel like saying it's abandoning his children when he's ordered to murder someone he loves and the only option is that or betraying his queen/wife is a rather classical impossible choice. Saying he's "abandoning" them is something that I think is somewhat ridiculous.

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel like saying it's abandoning his children when he's ordered to murder someone he loves and the only option is that or betraying his queen/wife is a rather classical impossible choice. Saying he's "abandoning" them is something that I think is somewhat ridiculous.

Daemon isn't ordered to do anything. Lord Mooton is. He is supposed to kill Nettles and send Daemon back to KL.

And of course he abandons his children. He has two daughters one of which ends up in the clutches of Aegon II and is nearly killed, and a son who goes through hell in no small part thanks to the unnecessary and early death of his father. If I were Baela or Aegon III I'd have only a 'Fuck you!' for my father.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Viserys will be the one arranging the search for Daemon's remains, recovering Vhagar's cadaver and Aemond's corpse with Dark Sister in the process of it. I don't think Aegon III will ever bother with the remains of his father. Why should he? The man spat on Rhaenyra and him. Viserys was the one who was away - he may retain fond memories of his dad.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

She murders people, on the orders of the French first minister.  They murder people, for reasons of pique or “honour.”  Athos is a common murderer, and D’Artagnan a rapist. They rob tradesmen and abuse servants. And, they seduce married women, before blackmailing them for money.

Ah, okay, didn't know that they were such pricks. Only read shortened version of that and watched a bunch of movies.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One of the complaints from critics was that there’s no one to root for.

I've actually seen many viewers sympathise with young Alicent. Her transformation from a relatively innocent young girl to neurotic psycho can be hard to digest for some. I get that this is intentional, but the fact that it occurs via time skip can make it seem like an outright personality swap.