[Spoilers]Rings of Power 3: Tolkien’s actual writing… who needs that?

[Cas Stark]

18 minutes ago, mormont said:

That in itself is interesting. Why would one do that, do you think? 

And the point that there are male characters who are described as 'brats' is, well, beside the point. Nobody ever said there weren't. I said that the term is a go-to for male critics of a certain type of female character. And it is. The bar for applying it is far lower than in the case of male characters. It gets applied to a broader range of female characters, in a more blanket way, for far less cause, to the point where it's virtually a gendered insult these days, like 'bitch'. There are male characters who're described as 'bitchy'. But that doesn't invalidate the idea that the term is a gendered insult - and that it is, as a criticism, one that can safely and pretty much always be dismissed as insubstantial. As should 'brat'. 

 

Most of the people on this particular thread who are calling Galadriel a brat are women.  I don't think it's a gendered insult at all.  There does seem to be a tendency among some to silence those who are critical of something they  like, by claiming  views or tone or words are 'problematic'...such as an objection to calling Galadriel, who absolutely behaved as a rude brat, a brat.

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Most of the people on this particular thread who are calling Galadriel a brat are women.  I don't think it's a gendered insult at all.  There does seem to be a tendency among some to silence those who are critical of something they  like, by claiming  views or tone or words are 'problematic'...such as an objection to calling Galadriel, who absolutely behaved as a rude brat, a brat.

Even if “brat” is a gendered term (and yet, I can remember tennis players like Ilie Nastase and John McEnroe being called brats when they misbehaved) it’s no worse than “Hooray Henry” or “Frat Boy”, which sums up a certain kind of misbehaving male jerk.

[baxus]

7 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

But why would I not read a book instead in that case? 

It is like the main reason I watch non-comedic stuff in cinema or on TV. 

My point was that people claim it looks shit which I find a bit ridiculous.

I don't know, why wouldn't you read a book? 

And it does look like shit. The dialogues are crap, characters are poorly written, story is extremely stupid at times... there's no amount of CGI, costumes and scenery, no matter how beautiful they are, that can make up for that. All those things are there to help the look of the show but there's no way they can fix those glaring issues.

[Heartofice]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Even if “brat” is a gendered term (and yet, I can remember tennis players like Ilie Nastase and John McEnroe being called brats when they misbehaved) it’s no worse than “Hooray Henry” or “Frat Boy”, which sums up a certain kind of misbehaving male jerk.

I wonder if there are people out there complaining that terms like ‘acting like a wanker’ are gendered and sexist.

[Luzifer's right hand]

10 minutes ago, baxus said:

I don't know, why wouldn't you read a book? 

And it does look like shit. The dialogues are crap, characters are poorly written, story is extremely stupid at times... there's no amount of CGI, costumes and scenery, no matter how beautiful they are, that can make up for that. All those things are there to help the look of the show but there's no way they can fix those glaring issues.

Because I like special effects. It does not look like shit and all people I know in RL enjoyed it. I watch Emmerich movies too.

 

Edit:There are very few SF things I would watch for the plot alone. Everything Everywhere All at Once is the only recent thing that comes to mind. I mean I freaking love the new Dune but I would probably like it far less if the effects were worse.

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Luzifer's right hand

[baxus]

Just now, Luzifer's right hand said:

I watch Emmerich movies too.

That explains it

Joking aside, I like CGI-heavy blockbusters as much as anyone but a so called adaptation of Tolkien's work is not the same as Avatar or Fast and the Furious etc. If we would compare CGI in different adaptations of Tolkien's books, we'd say that in Jackson's LotR it is there to help create the world and immerse us deeper into the story and in Rings of Power it's there to distract us from everything that's wrong with the show and it's obviously not working.

[Luzifer's right hand]

14 minutes ago, baxus said:

That explains it

Joking aside, I like CGI-heavy blockbusters as much as anyone but a so called adaptation of Tolkien's work is not the same as Avatar or Fast and the Furious etc. If we would compare CGI in different adaptations of Tolkien's books, we'd say that in Jackson's LotR it is there to help create the world and immerse us deeper into the story and in Rings of Power it's there to distract us from everything that's wrong with the show and it's obviously not working.

Well obviously it is not as beautiful as parts of Avatar are but nobody can afford crazy perfectionism like Cameron.

But we are not talking about his books but the partially fanfic his son published right? The worldbuilding is great but it is a source material severely lacking in characters.  That's why I love Adar I guess.

Edit: To compare something like Fast and the Furious to the pinnacle if SFX porn that Avatar is just shows that our tastes are completely incompatible.

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Luzifer's right hand

[Corvinus85]

21 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Because I like special effects. It does not look like shit and all people I know in RL enjoyed it. I watch Emmerich movies too.

 

Edit:There are very few SF things I would watch for the plot alone. Everything Everywhere All at Once is the only recent thing that comes to mind. I mean I freaking love the new Dune but I would probably like it far less if the effects were worse.

 

So I guess you're not a SyFy channel viewer.  Do you watch old SF like Babylon 5, old Trek, Farscape, Stargate? Their effects have generally not aged well.

What did you think of Emmerich's recent "masterpiece" Moonfall?

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

12 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

So I guess you're not a SyFy channel viewer.  Do you watch old SF like Babylon 5, old Trek, Farscape, Stargate? Their effects have generally not aged well.

What did you think of Emmerich's recent "masterpiece" Moonfall?

 

The remastered versions of Trek look ok enough I find. But I doubt I would watch TOS if nostalgia was not involved. The remaster of TNG is actually impressive. I actually gave up on my last DS9 rewatch when the big fleet battles came along. It looks so much worse than the remastered version of TNG.

Babylon 5 has not aged well at all but the makeup and sets are still great. The computer game look kinda works for me and the slight upscaling they have done makes it bearable.

Farscape has aged far better but it is more recent and the puppet effects are still without peer. But there are one or two scenes of an CGI Rygel walking at the are the fucking worst...

I will probably never rewatch Stargate SG-1 because that together with DS9 and Voyager has aged the worst I find.

Moonfall was a fun movie.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Luzifer's right hand

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 10/19/2022 at 11:49 AM, Le Cygne said:

I'm doing a re-read of LOTR and one thing that immediately stands out after ROP is that elves are cool again. Tolkien immerses you in elf-love from the start.

I walked away from ROP not liking elves at all, they seemed creepy and bad-tempered, apart from Elrond, who seemed too good for them. Basically Vulcans, and Elrond is Spock.

(Also I ran across lots of quotes where Tolkien said elf men had long hair, that was missing, too. Here's one: "the hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright.")

Elrond is the most human-like of all the elves, which I’m guessing is intentional, since they have been emphasizing his status as a half-elf (and according to people on this board, the last of the half-elves until his children are born). He seems proud of his heritage, almost defiant, like he’s challenging the elves to dare judge him for it. That’s why I’m hoping they break lore a bit and have Arwen’s mother be a human, since I think that would create a more compelling reason for him to oppose Arwen marrying Aragorn—not wanting to see his daughter suffer the hardship of outliving her spouse like he did—versus him deciding that humans are scum because Isildur was a dipshit. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Anyone who hates how ROP portrayed Galadriel will probably love this thread:

 

[Farerb]

Honestly, I don't hate Galadriel, I just don't think she's Galadriel, she's more like Katniss Everdeen or someone other YA protagonist. I just really feel sad for Morfydd Clark because she deserved better.

[Cas Stark]

I don't 'hate' her, but I think the choices they made in her characterization were uniformly poor and in conflict with Tolkien, who I think according to him, she was arrogant but always wise.  Show Galadriel gets the arrogant part, but there isn't any wisdom.  A senior military commander, even one who isn't thousands of years old already,  is not going to be extremely rude to those who he or she is trying to convince to engage their troops, or do anything.

The actress hasn't done  herself any favors either with her portrayal, but that goes for all the elves, who do not have any characteristics, except bad pompadours for the men, that distinguishes them from humans.  The queen of Numenor has more regal bearing than any of the elves by a long shot and that's a mistake.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Anyone who hates how ROP portrayed Galadriel will probably love this thread:

 

I don’t really have a horse in the Galadriel debate, I kinda agree it’s difficult to give someone thousands of years old a realistic arc when they should have basically peaked as a being. 

But that aside, that thread is absolutely devastating to this season from a writing perspective. The entire premise of the show, that Sauron manipulates others into creating the rings … was an accident, he just bumbled his way there by chance. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by DaveSumm

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Moonfall was a fun movie.

I rest my case. 

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Anyone who hates how ROP portrayed Galadriel will probably love this thread:

 

Very funny. But, he's not really wrong.  As bad as Galadriel's characterization, Sauron's actions/character are even worse.

[Heartofice]

43 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I don’t really have a horse in the Galadriel debate, I kinda agree it’s difficult to give someone thousands of years old a realistic arc when they should have basically peaked as a being. 

But that aside, that thread is absolutely devastating to this season from a writing perspective. The entire premise of the show, that Sauron manipulates others into creating the rings … was an accident, he just bumbled his way there by chance. 

The depiction of Sauron is the thing that killed the show for me, more than anything. 
 

I can overlook the clunky dialogue and poor storytelling. I don’t really care about Galadriel being totally off, but they have essentially wrecked any idea that we should be intimidated or afraid of Sauron.
 

It’s almost impossible to connect Halbrand with Sauron in my head, how could this bloke who basically lucked his way into events through almost no agency of his own, who didn’t really do any convincing or seducing be the guy in the prologue of Fellowship, the awesome dude we are all meant to fear. 
 

That’s the point I’m like ‘naaaah’

[Farerb]

I'm starting to suspect that they really just found a fanfic on the internet and just decided to adapt that.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't 'hate' her, but I think the choices they made in her characterization were uniformly poor and in conflict with Tolkien, who I think according to him, she was arrogant but always wise.  Show Galadriel gets the arrogant part, but there isn't any wisdom.  A senior military commander, even one who isn't thousands of years old already,  is not going to be extremely rude to those who he or she is trying to convince to engage their troops, or do anything.

The actress hasn't done  herself any favors either with her portrayal, but that goes for all the elves, who do not have any characteristics, except bad pompadours for the men, that distinguishes them from humans.  The queen of Numenor has more regal bearing than any of the elves by a long shot and that's a mistake.

One reason I enjoy Tad Williams’ Ostern Ard books is that he really gets how “other” the elves are.

Being thousands of years old gives you -or ought to give you - a radically different outlook to mortal men.

Especially when it comes to injustices.  Wrongs that are ancient history to a human are very real and present to an elf.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

One reason I enjoy Tad Williams’ Ostern Ard books is that he really gets how “other” the elves are.

Being thousands of years old gives you -or ought to give you - a radically different outlook to mortal men.

Especially when it comes to injustices.  Wrongs that are ancient history to a human are very real and present to an elf.

I think part of it might be that for the past few decades, vampires have been the base conception of what an immortal being is, and while they’re known for being brooding, they’re also typically emotionally stunted in some way. The elves in ROP could easily be vampires.