Ukraine Forever

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Not war. Special military operation, to save Ukrainian people.

By, err, killing and raping them, and depriving them of power and water in the middle of winter.

But the objective was still that of invasion, conquer, claim for pillage, and rule.  War by another name is still war.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

That isn’t what the Ukrainian side wants. They don’t want international observers to hold Crimea and Donetsk, they wanted the places returned to them. 

I would be all for that, but the Ukrainian side claims all the pro-Ukrainians have been ethnically cleansed so no poll would do. 

My point is the military option is a bad one, yet collectively everyone is saying no to negotiations and want a full Ukrainian victory.  No matter what that entails. 
 

 

You’re obfucating.  Is there a clear and unambiguous desire by all the people in Donetsk, Lukhansk, and Crimea to be part of the Russian Federation?  If not shouldn’t there be, at a minimum, a plebiscite supervised by a neutral third party held without either Russian or Ukrainian troops in those territories?

Again, you claim WWII isn’t analogus to the current circumstances.  Did the Baltic nations desire to be liberated by and then incorporated into the Soviet Union during the Second World War?

[DMC]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia’s collapse will be terrible for everyone yet this thread is just: “lol, can’t wait.” 

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It’s cool you can use the suffering of Ukrainians to justify your own revenge porn. 

Hoping for regime change is not hoping for "revenge porn," or even violence.  Indeed, this is entirely ass backwards considering said regime is currently probably the largest purveyor of violence in the world.  Of course most would hope any such change would inflict as little damage as possible to Russian citizens, but the current regime is already responsible for the violence their troops are subject to in Ukraine -- let alone assassinating and imprisoning their own dissident citizens. 

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

There are no two sides going on, there is only the one and that is those who think the death of Russians is good and that their suffering is justified because of “revenge”. 

You are full of it.  If there are people like that on this board they are very much the minority.

The vast majority of those who are posting on this thread on this forum want this war to be over, want so much for the victimization, torture, rape, murder and suffering of Ukrainian people to be finished, so they can begin the ma$$ ive job of rebuilding.  And healing, if at all possible.  And their stolen children returned, and the art - archaeological heritage - museum works returned.  And most of all the opportunity to mourn their lost with expectation of being bombed and shot yet again. 

This is what Putin has done because he wanted to, for the sake of some preposterous fantasy of establishing a "Russian Empire" over all this vast region from the Baltic, Black, Caspian, the Azov seas, to however far east. Crimea the first step.  Ukraine the second. He wishes to be czar like Catherine the Great.  So he's done this.  Because he's a cruel, selfish, murderous man, who is far, far, far from any set of realities, as are all Authoritarians such as Mussolini, Hitler, tRump, Muskie, etc.

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

26 minutes ago, Zorral said:

But the objective was still that of invasion, conquer, claim for pillage, and rule.  War by another name is still war.

I was being facetious

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I was being facetious

O.  Well, I was being pedantic.  So there. Ha!

In the meantime, I've been reflecting for some time, that what has happened, through no fault of its own, Ukraine has become a war of proxy between the forces of unalloyed authoritarianism and those who speak for democracy, such as it may be, wherever it may be.

It began way back with tRomper at the very least, trying to use Hunter Biden for something something something, not only to get elected, but to do the bidding of Putin and Russia, who were also backing tRomper in all kinds of ways, from illegal campaign funds, to hacking, to lies and foney baloney infomat.  tRomp was all in with the former Ukraine President, who was all in with Russia and Putin. Then the Ukrainians voted in somebody ... else.

 

[Maithanet]

There already was a vote on whether all regions of Ukraine would prefer to be part of Russia/Soviet Union or part of Ukraine.  The 1991 independence referendum.  A majority of residents in every single region voted to join Ukraine, including Crimea (54% in favor), Donetsk (84% in favor) and Luhansk (also 84%).  The idea that another plebiscite is needed is either Russian propaganda or assuming that the opinions of the minority should trump those of the majority who already decided. 

[Maithanet]

4 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I was being facetious

I thought you were quite clear on this matter. 

[butterweedstrover]

8 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

There already was a vote on whether all regions of Ukraine would prefer to be part of Russia/Soviet Union or part of Ukraine.  The 1991 independence referendum.  A majority of residents in every single region voted to join Ukraine, including Crimea (54% in favor), Donetsk (84% in favor) and Luhansk (also 84%).  The idea that another plebiscite is needed is either Russian propaganda or assuming that the opinions of the minority should trump those of the majority who already decided. 

That was before the 2014 revolution. Some people didn’t approve the overthrow of the government, which is when the conflict started. 
 

Ukraine as a political entity in 1991 is very different from the Ukrainian state today.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

That was before the 2014 revolution. Some people didn’t approve the overthrow of the government, which is when the conflict started. 
 

Ukraine as a political entity in 1991 is very different from the Ukrainian state today.

Some people approved of Yanukovych’s murder of Maidan protesters?  

[butterweedstrover]

41 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You’re obfucating.  Is there a clear and unambiguous desire by all the people in Donetsk, Lukhansk, and Crimea to be part of the Russian Federation?  If not shouldn’t there be, at a minimum, a plebiscite supervised by a neutral third party held without either Russian or Ukrainian troops in those territories?

Again, you claim WWII isn’t analogus to the current circumstances.  Did the Baltic nations desire to be liberated by and then incorporated into the Soviet Union during the Second World War?

I’m not. If there was any desire on either side for international observers I’d be in support. But that option is not on the table, rather the solution right now is for Ukrainian troops to militarily seize all three cities which would not in my humble opinion be conducive to peace. 
 

 

[butterweedstrover]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Some people approved of Yanukovych’s murder of Maidan protesters?  

Oh, you mean the right sectors gunning down their own protesters? This is something western organizations that were pro-Maidan already reported on: 

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/unsolved-maidan-massacre-casts-shadow-over-ukraine/ 
 

FYI: the Atlantic Council is a pro-NATO organization.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I’m not. If there was any desire on either side for international observers I’d be in support. But that option is not on the table, rather the solution right now is for Ukrainian troops to militarily seize all three cities which would not in my humble opinion be conducive to peace. 
 

 

For the third time.  You claim WWII isn’t analogus to current circumstances.  Did the Baltic States desire to be “liberated” by the Soviet Union and then incorporated into the Soviet Union?

[Derfel Cadarn]

18 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I thought you were quite clear on this matter. 

I thought so too, but nuance can bel lost on the internet

[SeanF]

51 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

That isn’t what the Ukrainian side wants. They don’t want international observers to hold Crimea and Donetsk, they wanted the places returned to them. 

I would be all for that, but the Ukrainian side claims all the pro-Ukrainians have been ethnically cleansed so no poll would do. 

My point is the military option is a bad one, yet collectively everyone is saying no to negotiations and want a full Ukrainian victory.  No matter what that entails. 
 

 

Russia has no interest in negotiation, on terms that Ukraine could accept.

There may be a deal to be done, to hold a referendum in Crimea, at some point before 2030.  

I see no reason why Donetsk and Luhansk should be retained by Russia.

[Derfel Cadarn]

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I’m not. If there was any desire on either side for international observers I’d be in support. But that option is not on the table, rather the solution right now is for Ukrainian troops to militarily seize all three cities which would not in my humble opinion be conducive to peace. 
 

 

Surely reclaiming their own three cities  would be conducive to peace? 

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

For the third time.  You claim WWII isn’t analogus to current circumstances.  Did the Baltic States desire to be “liberated” by the Soviet Union and then incorporated into the Soviet Union?

The Baltic states did not want to be a part of Nazi Germany. I don’t understand why you keep making these bizarre comparisons.

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Russia has no interest in negotiation, on terms that Ukraine could accept.

There may be a deal to be done, to hold a referendum in Crimea, at some point before 2030.  

I see no reason why Donetsk and Luhansk should be retained by Russia.

 

2 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Surely reclaiming their own three cities  would be conducive to peace? 

That’s a fine opinion to be had. But I am skeptical that people are really thinking it through when anyone who suggests otherwise is accused of supporting Russian atrocities. 

And it’s funny to think supporting maximalist war aims that will drag the conflict on for at least another year and potentially lead to the collapse of the Russian state is “peaceful” but whatever. 

[mormont]

There's a substantial argument that not retaking those cities will see the war reignite in a couple of years, which would be worse than extending it by a year.

Overall, butterstover, it seems to me you're reading people here uncharitably and mistaking justified anger at the Russian government and differences of opinion on how the war should end for unpleasant views that people here don't actually hold.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

And it’s funny to think supporting maximalist war aims that will drag the conflict on for at least another year and potentially lead to the collapse of the Russian state is “peaceful” but whatever. 

As others have stated time and time again, the quickest way for the war to resolve itself is for Russia to withdraw from their invasion of Ukraine's internationally recognized territorial borders. Russia has the power to end this war whenever they want.