Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

That comparison doesn't work though.

In all the cases you have noted, slavery was already fairly peripheral to economic activity. It was important, sure, but country could easily run without it. So even if slaves were simply set free without gaining any property, there were opportunities for them to look for work, there was an entire system outside the slavery that didn't requre slavery to work. In all the historical cases noted, alternative system already existed, it was simply a question of expanding it to accomodate the former slaves.

In Slaver's Bay however there is none of that. Slavers owned everything, all the land, all the work opportunities. Even in the American South, there existed small ranchers and businessmen who didn't depend on slave workforce - and in any case, many former slaves went northwards to look for work. But the way Slaver's Bay has been described, slavery was their entire economy. There are no other opportunities for work for former slaves, except obviously going to work again for their former masters.

Precisely.

I think in the West Indies, or Black Belt, there were few options.  The armed forces (as in Meereen), were one such.

O/T I love your comment about why humans wage war.

”Because we’re intelligent, social, animals.”

Edited February 13 by SeanF

[sifth]

On 2/12/2024 at 2:19 PM, SeanF said:

Ex slaves wishing to return to their masters are a show-only thing. The ex-slaves in the books don’t want their masters back.  Thousands of them join the standing army which she creates in Meereen, as well as the Brazen Beasts.  The Unsullied are also ex-slaves, who have no desire to bring them back.

 

Not true, during one of Dany's courts in the books, this issue comes up.

Dany's issue is not the fact that she ended slavery, the issue is, that she replaced it with nothing. She has no job programs set up for these former slaves. No ways to integrate them into the working class. She's just kind of hoping they will all do this on their own. She's also doing a really bad job of protecting them, given how many freedmen the Sons of the Harpy have killed.

Edited February 13 by sifth

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, sifth said:

Not true, during one of Dany's courts in the books, this issue comes up.

Dany's issue is not the fact that she ended slavery, the issue is, that she replaced it with nothing. She has no job programs set up for these former slaves. No ways to integrate them into the working class. She's just kind of hoping they will all do this on their own. She's also doing a really bad job of protecting them, given how many freedmen the Sons of the Harpy have killed.

During the courts, there’s a dispute,  where a former master wants a share of the profits being earned by a group of weavers he used to own, which rightly gets thrown out.  But, there is a sinister epilogue, as it seems they were later murdered by the Harpies.

There are certainly ex-slaves being re-employed by the elite, for low wages, but none, that I recall, wishing to be made chattels, again.

There were “gently born” Meereenese who had “lost all”, trying to sell themselves to a Qartheen trader, after the city fell, but slaves are not described in such terms.

It’s frustrating that Daenerys holds back from doing what is so obviously necessary.  Eradicating the Great Masters, in their entirety, and redistributing their estates.  

[sifth]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

During the courts, there’s a dispute,  where a former master wants a share of the profits being earned by a group of weavers he used to own, which rightly gets thrown out.  But, there is a sinister epilogue, as it seems they were later murdered by the Harpies.

There are certainly ex-slaves being re-employed by the elite, for low wages, but none, that I recall, wishing to be made chattels, again.

There were “gently born” Meereenese who had “lost all”, trying to sell themselves to a Qartheen trader, after the city fell, but slaves are not described in such terms.

It’s frustrating that Daenerys holds back from doing what is so obviously necessary.  Eradicating the Great Masters, in their entirety, and redistributing their estates.  

I believe it's her first court session, which takes place at the end of ASoS's, where some slaves ask to be sold back into slavery, because they're starving. It's been a while though. I just know, the issue does come up in the books, because when facing starvation, people are willing to do anything.

I agree, killing the Great Masters, would solve a lot of problems. At the very least, she should of stripped them of all their wealth and pyramids; at least from the ones who were clear as day not loyal to her.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I believe it's her first court session, which takes place at the end of ASoS's, where some slaves ask to be sold back into slavery, because they're starving. It's been a while though. I just know, the issue does come up in the books, because when facing starvation, people are willing to do anything.

I agree, killing the Great Masters, would solve a lot of problems. At the very least, she should of stripped them of all their wealth and pyramids; at least from the ones who were clear as day not loyal to her.

As I read it, it was about formerly wealthy masters wanting to get out of Dodge.

[Northern Sword]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

During the courts, there’s a dispute,  where a former master wants a share of the profits being earned by a group of weavers he used to own, which rightly gets thrown out.  But, there is a sinister epilogue, as it seems they were later murdered by the Harpies.

There are certainly ex-slaves being re-employed by the elite, for low wages, but none, that I recall, wishing to be made chattels, again.

There were “gently born” Meereenese who had “lost all”, trying to sell themselves to a Qartheen trader, after the city fell, but slaves are not described in such terms.

It’s frustrating that Daenerys holds back from doing what is so obviously necessary.  Eradicating the Great Masters, in their entirety, and redistributing their estates.  

When I was referring to slaves wanting to be resold,

I was thinking of a specific instance where a Teacher(slave) who taught a great masters children and was speaking of how much better life was as a slave. From how he was treated and his status to food, clothing and life in general.

I can not remember if it was the show or the books now. (definitely thought it was the books) but that was the example I recalled. 

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

When I was referring to slaves wanting to be resold,

I was thinking of a specific instance where a Teacher(slave) who taught a great masters children and was speaking of how much better life was as a slave. From how he was treated and his status to food, clothing and life in general.

I can not remember if it was the show or the books now. (definitely thought it was the books) but that was the example I recalled. 

That was certainly the show.

We do get the pit fighters who complain they used to eat and drink well when the fighting pits were open - and now they don't.  The flip side, of course, is Tyrion and Penny getting fed to lions as lunchtime entertainment.

And, Tyrion  speculates that Eastern slaves don't have it too bad, compared to Western peasants, although I suspect that says much about how the Lannisters treat their serfs.

[Northern Sword]

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That was certainly the show.

We do get the pit fighters who complain they used to eat and drink well when the fighting pits were open - and now they don't.  The flip side, of course, is Tyrion and Penny getting fed to lions as lunchtime entertainment.

And, Tyrion  speculates that Eastern slaves don't have it too bad, compared to Western peasants, although I suspect that says much about how the Lannisters treat their serfs.

I'd imagine his opinion would shift considerably if a lion started eating him... The irony of the Lannister sigil being the end of Tyrion would be poetic. lol.

[SeanF]

29 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

I'd imagine his opinion would shift considerably if a lion started eating him... The irony of the Lannister sigil being the end of Tyrion would be poetic. lol.

@The Marquis de Leechdrew attention on the US politics thread that Aristotle wrote that some people were naturally slaves, whereas others are made slaves by force.

Tyrion would not consider that eupatrids such as himself and Ser Jorah were natural slaves, but rather, slaves by force.  The smallfolk, OTOH, are natural slaves.

[Northern Sword]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

@The Marquis de Leechdrew attention on the US politics thread that Aristotle wrote that some people were naturally slaves, whereas others are made slaves by force.

Tyrion would not consider that eupatrids such as himself and Ser Jorah were natural slaves, but rather, slaves by force.  The smallfolk, OTOH, are natural slaves.

I don't wander onto that side all that often. 

That is interesting, yet I have a limited knowledge of that subject. I do like a good Greek philosophical debate though.

I may go take a look.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Jon was the worst lord commander to ever wear the uniform of the Night's Watch.  Daenerys on the other hand is a true leader who will unite the Khalasars into one mighty people and end the slave trade. 

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon was the worst lord commander to ever wear the uniform of the Night's Watch.  Daenerys on the other hand is a true leader who will unite the Khalasars into one mighty people and end the slave trade. 

Silly.  There have been vastly worse Commanders than Jon Snow.  Daenerys will - I suspect - strike a big blow against the slave trade, if we ever get the next book, but she won't end it, and the Dothraki will want to be rewarded for their support, with the spoils and lands of the masters.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 2/15/2024 at 6:57 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon was the worst lord commander to ever wear the uniform of the Night's Watch.  Daenerys on the other hand is a true leader who will unite the Khalasars into one mighty people and end the slave trade. 

 

Jon is the return of the Night's King.  I am sure there have been awful commanders in the past but I agree about Jon causing the most harm because of what he has done.  Getting himself into conflict with the Boltons is the cause of the coming fall of the Night's Watch.  Some of the mistakes was going to happen because Jon was not good at leading.  He was too prejudiced and too emotionally attached to Arya and Robb.  He was also not the brightest in the brains area. 

On 2/15/2024 at 7:09 PM, SeanF said:

Silly.  There have been vastly worse Commanders than Jon Snow.  Daenerys will - I suspect - strike a big blow against the slave trade, if we ever get the next book, but she won't end it, and the Dothraki will want to be rewarded for their support, with the spoils and lands of the masters.

The Dothraki will serve Daenerys and redeem themselves.  The khalasars will soon be hers as they have never been Drogo's.  The purpose of the khalasars is to bring down the slave trade and by doing so, earn their redemption. 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

 

Jon is the return of the Night's King.  I am sure there have been awful commanders in the past but I agree about Jon causing the most harm because of what he has done.  Getting himself into conflict with the Boltons is the cause of the coming fall of the Night's Watch.  Some of the mistakes was going to happen because Jon was not good at leading.  He was too prejudiced and too emotionally attached to Arya and Robb.  He was also not the brightest in the brains area. 

The Dothraki will serve Daenerys and redeem themselves.  The khalasars will soon be hers as they have never been Drogo's.  The purpose of the khalasars is to bring down the slave trade and by doing so, earn their redemption. 

The Watch has been failing and falling for years.

And how will the Dothraki become part of Daenerys' army? It was pretty clear what was going to happen to her with Drogo's death. Unless Daenerys goes the show's route where she burns all the Khals...

Edited February 18 by Angel Eyes

[astarkchoice]

13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The Watch has been failing and falling for years.

And how will the Dothraki become part of Daenerys' army? It was pretty clear what was going to happen to her with Drogo's death. Unless Daenerys goes the show's route where she burns all the Khals...

This

 

They are an essential part of the slave trade so must die, among them she may learn how to bond with drogo etc but due they must.

If she is to leave her former slaves to prosper the dothraki must perish they are a threat to all essos societies west of the mountains inbetween (and on the other side its the jogos nhai who need to go....they are the smarter better dothraki!) 

[frenin]

On 2/12/2024 at 3:47 PM, Northern Sword said:

Agreed, he could see it, but Bowen, and his traitorous companions couldn't. People fear what they don't understand I suppose. Not totally surprising after all. 

I mean everyone and their mother could see Jon was blinded by revenge.

I think that Dany is a better leader, mainly because she's facing far more and has fewer allies and she is still alive.

[Northern Sword]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:49 AM, frenin said:

I mean everyone and their mother could see Jon was blinded by revenge.

I think that Dany is a better leader, mainly because she's facing far more and has fewer allies and she is still alive.

Blinded by revenge ?  His POV chapter is fairly precise in detailing his reasoning. Blinding revenge is no where to be found. 

[Lady Winter Rose]

On 2/20/2024 at 7:07 PM, Northern Sword said:

His POV chapter is fairly precise in detailing his reasoning. Blinding revenge is no where to be found. 

He's taking an army to Boltons stronghold, which is his former home. There's nothing Jon could say himself or to reader to truly prove he's not blinded by revenge

[Roswell]

Dany is a better leader when in comparison to Jon Snow. 

Jon Snow was acting out revenge when he executed Janos Slynt.  He set up a trap to use his power as commander to get his revenge on Janos Slynt. 

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Roswell said:

Jon Snow was acting out revenge when he executed Janos Slynt. He set up a trap to use his power as commander to get his revenge on Janos Slynt. 

Please read the book before commenting next time.