Unloyal Bannermen Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Stannis has the strongest claim by far, even if Aegon is real. The throne was taken by Conquest, meaning the Baratheon line is royal now. Based on how the world of Asoiaf works, Stannis is the rightful heir. I can't see Stannis getting the throne however, feels like the time for that has past story wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 19 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: The two situations are not the same: Aegon conquered Westeros and forged Seven Kingdoms into one and created its instutions, while Robert simply killed the Targaryen claimants or forced them into exile, but continued using the same institutions and maintained the same system, a (technically) absolute monarchy. I don't think that really matters, though. I'm not talking about Aegon I vs Robert, I'm talking about Aerys II vs Robert. A monarchial society might disagree, but I don't think Aerys had any more legitimacy because Aegon was his ancestor than Robert (and of course, Aegon was Robert's ancestor too). Robert was just "the next king", and I wouldn't expect him to remake the realm (even if he was a good king, which he wasn't). I don't care about what the Targaryens did 300 years ago in regard to the Robert's Rebellion; I care about what they were doing at the time. Aerys had to go. Had Rhaegar survived the war, then the best choice would probably be for him to continue the Targaryen reign. But Rhaegar legitimately died in battle and Viserys was a little child (and a monster in the making, too), so it was time for the Targaryen reign to end. 19 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: “He’s not. Robert was never the rightful king either, even Renly said as much. Jaime Lannister murdered the rightful king, after Robert killed his lawful heir on the Trident. Where were the gods then? The gods don’t care about men, no more than kings care about peasants.” Of course even Renly said that, and Brienne- who was madly in love with him and fiercely loyal- would agree. Renly clearly didn't have a claim to the throne, so he simply said "well Robert didn't either so anybody can claim the throne and now it's my turn" (paraphrased, obviously). Stannis and Joffrey supporters both thought they had the legitimate claim (generally), but Renly supporters had no choice to shift their ideology to justify their support. 19 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: “MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,”he thundered. “The King in the North!” I took "dragons" literally here: meaning the actual dragons, not the Targaryens. They "married" the dragons under the threat of genocide, not because they loved the Targaryens. Sure they didn't rebel the moment the (literal) dragons died out, because there was no need to. They didn't rebel the moment the Targaryens died out either, because there was no need to. They rebelled because the new king murdered their lord and his new Hand initiated a genocidal campaign against the Riverlands. 19 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: In-universe we see that Robert's usurpation caused instability and set up the groundwork for the Wo5K: Balon rebelled because Greyjoys have never bent the knee for Baratheons, Robb seceded because his lords thought that they do not owe the same fealty to Baratheons (a regular Westerosi house) than the Targaryens, and Renly followed Robert's example in proclaiming himself King despite having a poor claim. The Greyjoys rebelled multiple times during the Targaryen reign too, because that's what Greyjoys do. The Iron Islands really don't fit in the Seven Kingdoms at all. I think it is more about who the Greyjoy leader is than who sits the Iron Throne. Balon's father didn't rebel, not because he swore fealty to the Targaryens, but because he wasn't as stupid and short-sighted as Balon. Robb seceded for the reasons I stated above. Had Ned died for any reason other than being executed by the "Baratheon" king, Robb would never have seceded. Of course Joffrey isn't even a Baratheon, but Robb didn't know that yet. 19 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: (Aegon) might be able to take the Throne, but would he able to take over Westeros and establish long-term stability? The only two possibilites that might enable it would be a marriage to Sansa - that might bring the support of the Vale and bring the North, the Riverlands and the Vale into the fold - or a marriage to Daenerys and dragons. The Seven Kingdoms is a mess right now and it won't be stable soon. Three of the four realms that are still a functioning part of the Seven Kingdoms (Dorne, the Reach, the Stormlands) would be happier to have Aegon than any other contender. The Westlands are questionable since they theoretically favor the Lannisters, but since we don't have much of a window in the Westlands, we don't really know how loyal they are to their reprehensible overlords. I'm sure the other leaders of the Vale might prefer Aegon; obviously not Petyr, but Petyr only wants what is best for Petyr. The Riverlands and the North couldn't care less who sits on the Iron Throne right now other than how the Iron Throne impacts their local conflicts. The anti-Bolton Northerners would prefer anybody who doesn't support the Boltons, and the anti-Frey Riverlanders would prefer anybody who doesn't support the Freys. The pro-Bolton/Frey folk (small in numbers as they are) prefer for the Lannisters to stay in power. 19 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: What kind of 'superior sense of dragon blood' does Dany possess? It doesn't seem to be that she is looking down on people because she is a Targaryen, the only example of her referring to 'I am blood of the dragon' to finish an argument was with Daario when he proposed a Meereenese Red Wedding to her. Maybe you're right. Thinking that she can't get sick because she is a Targaryen is more about ignorance than elitism, and thinking that she deserves to rule Westeros is more about "birthright" than specifically "blood". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Fine. Conquest is bitchen. Royal blood lines are lame. Still, much as I enjoy Stannis, he is a mad man, burning people and forcing a new faith on a land with 2 firmly established faiths leading to further senseless death. Ethics and morality need to count in here somewhere. Stannis is a murderer outside simple conquest. Further, he is a kinslayer. Bad show. Bad example. Most unkingly behavior. Aegon is not the son of Rhaegar. He is the figure head for a sell sword company of failed Blackfyres, displaced lords and foreigners who have no place in Westeros nor its politics. Aegon is a social experiment. A dream. A trick and no more. Fortunately, he brings with him a secret deadly epidemic that will ruin his campaign and if the gods are good, his backers. Again, unkingly behavior. The Baratheon children in Cersei's line are Lannisters through no fault of their own. That doesn't give them the right to anything. Go west or anywhere, but go away and take your drunken insipid mother with you. They are inconsequential. Cersei is the problem and has already show on numerous occasions she simply needs to be far removed from power. Inhuman behavior. Euron Greyjoy is too strange and cruel to do more than kill and maim. Only fools and masochists would back him as a ruler. He's just weird. Daenerys Targaryen is a magical being and a conqueror with many strengths, but no real experience ruling and no experience at all in Westeros. She is a foreigner and her army, like Aegon's, will be comprised of foreigners. Without domestic allies she has no hope of becoming anything other than hated and feared in Westeros. She gets on the Defeat The Others bandwagon real fast or goes and pouts somewhere else. There are no other good fights in Westeros. Review of the list shows there are no other really good guys in Westeros, either. The North is her only hope. She has potential, but needs a lot more help than she realizes. Arianne Martell can't even kill a child with the help of knights or seduce the man she lost her virginity to, how could she possibly rule the seven kingdoms? Margaery Tyrell is the sitting Queen and appears to be a decent person. She is somewhat politically savvy and seems to care for people beyond herself implying she might be a progressive thinker. However, her future looks very dark and it is doubtful she will remain in power for long tied to Tommen. Her power as a Tyrell is equally as dubious. Should she survive she would make a good advisor, but no competition for the likes of Daenerys or Stannis. Jon Snow has no current claim to the IT, but it's coming and he won't want it. Whether he's forced, tricked or seduced into it remains to be seen. Jon's record sets the standard for future reign. He would be reluctant and progressive, he would make mistakes and come up with bright solutions. He would be a diplomat and make few public appearances. He would be steady. But could he actually gain the alliances of any of the above mentioned contenders' forces in the events of their deaths? Would the Unsullied and Dothraki and Golden Company or Dorne follow Jon? How much death would result if Jon was the last man standing to rally the forces? It takes more than brute force and good claim to rule a kingdom. The point of all this was simply to stress that point. It takes character and disposition and respect and foresight. As I see it Westeros has suffered in the hands of many bad rulers and prospered a little in the hands of a very few good. In the end, Westeros should progress into a new age where magic isn't needed by the land to go on. People should be able to propel this place into a prosperous future with normal seasons, harvests, catastrophes and progressions. People should be able to die and stay dead just as weirwoods should all turn to stone. Eventually. BlackLightning 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 I support Jon the First Hero’s claim to the throne of Night Fort as he is most likely a descendant of Night’s King/Last Hero through the maternal line. It is his destiny to broker a peace treaty between humans and the misunderstood people, Others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 If we’re keeping the Iron Throne, it’s 1. Baelor Hightower 2. Malora Hightower 3. Alerie Hightower 4. Willas Tyrell 5. Garlan Tyrell 6. Loras Tyrell 7. Margaery Tyrell And I’m assuming will probably end up with Willas or Margaery. And tbh, if we’re ditching the Targ line of succession, it should probably be one or the other of them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 At the moment, Tommen with Kevan as a Regent would be for the best, because it doesn't cause a long war. The next option is probably Aegon&Daenerys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 (edited) On 6/25/2023 at 11:18 AM, StarkTullies said: Robert was just "the next king", and I wouldn't expect him to remake the realm (even if he was a good king, which he wasn't). I don't care about what the Targaryens did 300 years ago in regard to the Robert's Rebellion; I care about what they were doing at the time. Aerys had to go. Had Rhaegar survived the war, then the best choice would probably be for him to continue the Targaryen reign. But Rhaegar legitimately died in battle and Viserys was a little child (and a monster in the making, too), so it was time for the Targaryen reign to end. Elia's son Aegon was alive when Robert became King (before or after the Battle of the Trident). The rebels could have become Regents and put a limit to the powers of the King, but they have chosen to have Robert usurp the Throne instead. On 6/25/2023 at 11:18 AM, StarkTullies said: Of course even Renly said that, and Brienne- who was madly in love with him and fiercely loyal- would agree. Renly clearly didn't have a claim to the throne, so he simply said "well Robert didn't either so anybody can claim the throne and now it's my turn" (paraphrased, obviously). Stannis and Joffrey supporters both thought they had the legitimate claim (generally), but Renly supporters had no choice to shift their ideology to justify their support. Except Stannis didn't deny that Robert took the Throne via right of conquest, something Renly tried to repeat (although with less justification). On 6/25/2023 at 11:18 AM, StarkTullies said: The Seven Kingdoms is a mess right now and it won't be stable soon. Three of the four realms that are still a functioning part of the Seven Kingdoms (Dorne, the Reach, the Stormlands) would be happier to have Aegon than any other contender. They would be equally or more happy with Dany, since her legitimacy cannot be questioned and has dragons to prove it. There is a reason why JonCon and the GC wants Aegon to marry Dany. On 6/25/2023 at 11:18 AM, StarkTullies said: Maybe you're right. Thinking that she can't get sick because she is a Targaryen is more about ignorance than elitism, and thinking that she deserves to rule Westeros is more about "birthright" than specifically "blood". Honestly, it seems to match with her experiences and maybe GRRM intended to make it true. After all, the Targaryens are indeed resistant to heat and incest didn't cause serious after-effects for the large majority them (when it probably would in real life). Edited August 11, 2023 by csuszka1948 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 On 8/11/2023 at 3:26 AM, csuszka1948 said: Elia's son Aegon was alive when Robert became King (before or after the Battle of the Trident). The rebels could have become Regents and put a limit to the powers of the King, but they have chosen to have Robert usurp the Throne instead. I never read A World of Ice and Fire, but from ASOIAF, it seems that Robert was not named king until after he arrived in Kings Landing... after Gregor Clegane already killed Rhaegar's presumed son. I assume you are talking about that Aegon, and not Young Griff who also claims to be Aegon. Aegon was dead, and taking alternate Aegon and Jon Snow out of the picture (who are unknowns to the rest of the world), Viserys would have then been the Targaryen heir. I approve of them not naming him king ruled by a regent. When the Targrayen legacy was such an utter nightmare at that point, it's time to move on to something else. Robert's Rebellion was not initiated to usurp the throne, but when massive wars happen, legacies change. I know that Robert used his Targaryen ancestry as part of his claim... but I also know that that was "gardened" into the story after AGOT was written. That was not GRRM's original intent. On 8/11/2023 at 3:26 AM, csuszka1948 said: Except Stannis didn't deny that Robert took the Throne via right of conquest, something Renly tried to repeat (although with less justification). He didn't deny it, but did he actually say it? (A genuine question, not rhetorical. I'm severely sleep-deprived right now, and my usual stellar memory is a bit compromised at the moment.) On 8/11/2023 at 3:26 AM, csuszka1948 said: They would be equally or more happy with Dany, since her legitimacy cannot be questioned and has dragons to prove it. There is a reason why JonCon and the GC wants Aegon to marry Dany. Some citizens still see Targaryens as the rightful rulers, some turned against the Targaryens during the rebellion and hate them, some thought that Targaryens were rightful heirs but almost 20 years later have moved on, some others might have disliked the Targaryens are so sick of the current state that they long for the "glory days of the past". It depends what camp they're in. I don't think most Westerosi would fully embrace Dany at all: she's a woman, and she will be arriving with a thousands of people who have the reputation of barbarian invaders. They wanted Aegon to marry Dany so then Aegon would have dragons. And because incest is a Targaryen thing. But they wanted Aegon to rule with Dany as his consort, not the other way around. And Dany's Dothraki horde is not part of JonCon's plan. (Not currently, they were in AGOT, but Varys/Illyrio's "true" plans remain a mystery to me.) On 8/11/2023 at 3:26 AM, csuszka1948 said: Honestly, it seems to match with her experiences and maybe GRRM intended to make it true. After all, the Targaryens are indeed resistant to heat and incest didn't cause serious after-effects for the large majority them (when it probably would in real life). In a medieval fantasy world, we don't hear about sickness much at all though. Dany should have been sick a lot in her childhood. She has no memories of that, but neither do the Stark children. We don't see much sickness at all except for festering from wounds, and various plagues. This includes historical plagues on Westeros, when the first Princess Daenerys did indeed die, and then when half the Targaryen royalty died from another plague in the time of Daereon II. I think "Targaryens don't get sick" is definitely pro-Targaryen propaganda. Jaehaerys (as written in Fire & Blood) seemed more upset that the lie was proven untrue than that his actual daughter died... but I know F&B is supposed to be taken with a grain of salt for what "really happened". Dany tolerating hotter baths than most ordinary people does not impress me too much. She's not "fireproof" as alternate tellings indicate. I know that Fire & Blood (which I did read) states that Targaryens are heat-resistant, but has that really offered them any special advantages? I suspect that biology in George Martin's world is different than our own, and incest does not have the negative implications for anybody in any family there as much as it would in real life. Joffrey is a pyschopath, but so is mother, and I don't think incest is to blame for that. Ser Arthurs Dawn and Craving Peaches 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 (edited) On 8/13/2023 at 12:53 PM, StarkTullies said: I never read A World of Ice and Fire, but from ASOIAF, it seems that Robert was not named king until after he arrived in Kings Landing... after Gregor Clegane already killed Rhaegar's presumed son. I assume you are talking about that Aegon, and not Young Griff who also claims to be Aegon. GRRM said Robert proclaimed his intention to take the throne ... around the time of the Trident. On 8/13/2023 at 12:53 PM, StarkTullies said: I don't think most Westerosi would fully embrace Dany at all: she's a woman, and she will be arriving with a thousands of people who have the reputation of barbarian invaders. Well, Robert was afraid that many Targaryen loyalists would join Viserys if Drogo invaded Westeros with her khalasar, so I doubt this would cause Westerosi lords to hate her if she can keep them in check (as the Stallion Who Mounts the World). Stannis burned the statues of the Seven and a godswood, hired sellswords, made alliance with pirates and Melisandre, but almost nobody refused to support him for these reasons - he had no support because he was unpopular and waited for too long. Westerosi lords in general seem to be quite opportunistic and not very xenophobic, and in ADWD we saw many of them (or their children, brothers) sent to Meereen to seek Dany out. It doesn't seems that she is rejected for being a woman, because she is also the person who brought dragons back. That's not to say that she would be embraced (the North would be obviously suspicious of him), but she wouldn't be rejected either. On 8/13/2023 at 12:53 PM, StarkTullies said: They wanted Aegon to marry Dany so then Aegon would have dragons. And because incest is a Targaryen thing. But they wanted Aegon to rule with Dany as his consort, not the other way around. And Dany's Dothraki horde is not part of JonCon's plan. (Not currently, they were in AGOT, but Varys/Illyrio's "true" plans remain a mystery to me.) Well, the current plan seemed to be making Aegon Dany's consort: "The captain-general looked as if someone had slapped his face. “Has the sun curdled your brains, Flowers? We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same. Without her, the lords will only mock his claim and brand him a fraud and a pretender. And how do you propose to get to Westeros? You heard Lysono. There are no ships to be had" and Arianne and Doran also seem to prefer Dany to him: “Prince Aegon is of your own blood, princess. Son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia of Dorne, your father’s sister.” “Daenerys Targaryen is of our blood as well. Daughter of King Aerys, Rhaegar’s sister. And she has dragons, or so the tales would have us believe.” Fire and blood. “Where is she?” Edited August 14, 2023 by csuszka1948 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: GRRM said Robert proclaimed his intention to take the throne ... around the time of the Trident. Okay. Do the books actually say this anywhere, or just GRRM in an interview? Seems a bit contradictory to what was actually written. I believe you, though. The war was all but over by the Trident; Robert still did not initiate the war to take the throne. Personally I think keeping the Targaryen reign alive would make more sense if Aegon was dead and Viserys was the heir. We've had children under the reign of regents before, but never an infant baby. That's not the main reason it was time for the Targaryen reign to end though; if you have a king as unspeakably evil as Aerys, it is time to move on. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Well, Robert was afraid that many Targaryen loyalists would join Viserys if Drogo invaded Westeros with her khalasar, so I doubt this would cause Westerosi lords to hate her if she can keep them in check (as the Stallion Who Mounts the World). I think Robert's fear was unfounded because no Targaryen loyalist is so loyal that they want to see their castles torn down, their men murdered, their women raped, their children enslaved (which is exactly the promise that Drogo made). No war is bloodless, but a Dothraki invasion would be worse than anything Westeros has ever seen. Unless the Dothraki unanimously worship Dany as their new goddess after "mounting the world", I doubt that Dany will be able to keep them in check. You can't change the culture of 100,000+ people overnight, and GRRM is not the type of author to pretend that somebody can. But after embracing "fire and blood" and "dragons plant no trees", I doubt Dany will even try. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Stannis burned the statues of the Seven and a godswood, hired sellswords, made alliance with pirates and Melisandre, but almost nobody refused to support him for these reasons - he had no support because he was unpopular and waited for too long. Lots of people have issues with Stannis's anti-Seven, pro-R'hillor stance. Most of them hire sellswords, and I don't think Dany's sellswords (if she brings them to Westeros) is what people will have an issue with. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Westerosi lords in general seem to be quite opportunistic and not very xenophobic, and in ADWD we saw many of them (or their children, brothers) sent to Meereen to seek Dany out. It doesn't seems that she is rejected for being a woman, because she is also the person who brought dragons back. The Greyjoys don't want a Targaryen restoration (Dany or Aegon or any other); they just want to steal Dany's dragons for themselves. Tyrion wants Dany and her dragons as a force of destruction to enact his revenge, and perhaps he is "pro-Targaryen" just to overthrow his family he hates, but all his motives are born out of malice and spite. That really only leaves Aegon and the Martells... who I'll get to in a moment. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: she wouldn't be rejected either. You might be right if she comes as she is right now: the apparent Targaryen heir with dragons. If she comes with Dothraki too (which is a guarantee), I absolutely think she will be rejected. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: “Has the sun curdled your brains, Flowers? We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same. Without her, the lords will only mock his claim and brand him a fraud and a pretender. And how do you propose to get to Westeros? You heard Lysono. There are no ships to be had" You're right, they called Young Griff as Dany's consort. If you subscribe to the "Young Griff is a Blackfyre" theory, which I do, obviously the Golden Company is supporting Aegon and not Dany. Dany is a means to Aegon's power. Interesting that they referred to him as her consort and not the other way around (so I admit I was wrong about that), but I'm still convinced this is the first step in their continued plan. Obviously they want Aegon to be the one in true power. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: and Arianne and Doran also seem to prefer Dany to him There is no doubt that Doran prefers Dany at the moment. Viserys was his path toward vengeance. Then he died, and Doran shifted plans toward Dany instead. He is not ready to shift toward the new surprise Targaryen so quickly (Doran doesn't shift plans quickly, or do anything quickly, it seems), especially since he is not convinced Aegon is real. Doran's motives are personal however, and not representative of the general population. But... if there is one thing I am 100% convinced will happen in the next book unless GRRM really "subverts expectations", it is that the Martells will flip the instant they learn that Quentyn is dead. Not only because there is no chance of Quentyn marrying Dany, but Drinkwater will have plenty of unfavorable tales to tell about Dany. The entire purpose of the Dorne plot, in my opinion/prediction, is that Dany's would-be easiest allies will switch sides to her nemesis instead. Edited August 14, 2023 by StarkTullies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, StarkTullies said: That's not the main reason it was time for the Targaryen reign to end though; if you have a king as unspeakably evil as Aerys, it is time to move on. Are you saying that if the father is evil or commits a wrong, then the whole family should be removed (and exterminated)? That's the logic of Tywin Lannister (which he applied in Tarbeck Hall or Castamere). 7 hours ago, StarkTullies said: I think Robert's fear was unfounded because no Targaryen loyalist is so loyal that they want to see their castles torn down, their men murdered, their women raped, their children enslaved (which is exactly the promise that Drogo made). No war is bloodless, but a Dothraki invasion would be worse than anything Westeros has ever seen. Well, Robert claims it and nobody in his council doubts that nobles would join the Targaryens if it happened (Ned only rightly doubts that they would cross the sea). You have to remember that those who join the Dothraki wouldn't get attacked, Drogo is not a complete idiot. That's why I say that we should rely on in-world statements. 7 hours ago, StarkTullies said: Unless the Dothraki unanimously worship Dany as their new goddess after "mounting the world", I doubt that Dany will be able to keep them in check. You can't change the culture of 100,000+ people overnight, and GRRM is not the type of author to pretend that somebody can. We saw that Dany could claim women as her slaves even as a khaalesi. As the "Stallion Who Mounts the World" (and with Drogon she has a great chance to claim this title, and it would fit "prophecies coming true in inexpected ways") she could restrict them to a higher extent (while obviously pillaging is inevitable, she could claim all women as hers and make them part of her khalasar). 7 hours ago, StarkTullies said: But after embracing "fire and blood" and "dragons plant no trees", I doubt Dany will even try. Do you think that Dany will accept that the Dothraki rape innocents without doing anything about it? That's just completely contradictory to her character. She was very sad about forgetting Hazzea's name. "Fire and Blood" simply means choosing war, as it's spelled out in the previous Barristan chapter: "“I do not think they hear your prayers. And when the Yunkai’i send back the old woman to spit in your eye, what then?” “Fire and blood,” said Barristan Selmy, softly, softly. For a long moment no one spoke. Then Strong Belwas slapped his belly and said, “Better than liver and onions,” and Skahaz Shavepate stared through the eyes of his wolf’s head mask and said, “You would break King Hizdahr’s peace, old man?” “I would shatter it.” "Dragons don't plant trees" is a personal low point - Dany thinks she is ineffective and a failure as a ruler at this point. However, the idea of "planting trees" is also framed as a naivety of a little girl in the text (("I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."), whose desire for peace allowed the masters to get concession after concession from her. Thus, by embracing 'fire and blood' Dany also unknowingly following Aemon's advice to "kill the boy girl and let the man woman be be born", employing the necessary (or mayhaps unnecessary) ruthlessness even if she doesn't like it. 7 hours ago, StarkTullies said: Lots of people have issues with Stannis's anti-Seven, pro-R'hillor stance. Most of them hire sellswords, and I don't think Dany's sellswords (if she brings them to Westeros) is what people will have an issue with. We don't see characters having serious problems with it, a single lord deserts him for it. Most of the Stormlanders follow him after Renly's death. His unpopularity has little to do with his religion (which makes little sense in a real medieval world, but ASOIAF is not a 1:1 analogue) and nothing with him hiring pirates and sellswords. 7 hours ago, StarkTullies said: You might be right if she comes as she is right now: the apparent Targaryen heir with dragons. If she comes with Dothraki too (which is a guarantee), I absolutely think she will be rejected. Yes, but that's for which I am saying that there is no textual support for it, what we have (Robert and his council fearing others would join them&the initial plan of Illyrio&Varys involving Dothraki, Tywin hiring Dothraki sellswords) doesn't back it. Most Westerosi lords won't fight against Dany on an ideological basis (because she has Dothraki), because they are not suicidal. She will be rejected by those who want to keep the existing regime in power or who want to be independent (Starks), and supported by part of those are Targ loyalists or who want to overthrow it or don't support it as much that they want to fight against obvious military&dragon superiority. That said, it's difficult to speculate about her support when we don't know the situation in which she will arrive in. She is still half a world away, and a second round of civil war has just started - Euron will perform some shenanigans in the Reach, Aegon in the Stormlands, Riverlords will rebel and Varys assassinated Kevan before he could stabilize the realm again (which doesn't seem a positive thing). The Southern portion of the realm will be in complete disarray and the Others will probably invade the North when she arrives. For example, Aegon will be an obvious ally if he is still alive and Dany believes him real (and Tyrion has no reason to tell him otherwise) Tyrells seem to be an obvious candidate that could shift to support her if Dany goes war with Aegon and/or Euron. Edited August 15, 2023 by csuszka1948 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 (edited) The Dothraki seem perfectly content with getting protection money, rather than always opting for maximum destruction. I don’t think any lords would have any qualms about unleashing them on their enemies, given that most lords already behave like the parties in the Thirty Years War towards their enemies. Scarcely anyone in power cares a damn for the suffering of the peasants, (not even Ned was much bothered by the casual murder of Mycah) and if they do, it’s for the sufferings of their own tenants, not other lords’. The Dothraki don’t behave much differently from the chivalry of Westeros, they’re just more crude. Edited August 15, 2023 by SeanF Morte 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 12 minutes ago, SeanF said: The Dothraki seem perfectly content with getting protection money, rather than always opting for maximum destruction. I don’t think any lords would have any qualms about unleashing them on their enemies, given that most lords already behave like the parties in the Thirty Years War towards their enemies. Yes, I agree. Dany won't be rejected by most because she brings Dothraki and dragons, most lords don't want their own lands burned and pillaged. The Dothraki could become a huge problem if Dany wants to rule Westeros (which we know she won't), but are helpful for conquering. Actually, now that I think about it one of the strongest arguments in favor of Dany living (and departing the continent) is that if she dies from treachery or something like that, her khalasar won't just calmly accept it and go back to Essos, they would wreak further havoc and destruction in a continent which has been already depleted of armies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Are you saying that if the father is evil or commits a wrong, then the whole family should be removed (and exterminated)? No I am not saying that, nor did I say anything to imply that (at least the extermination part). Tywin is the number one monster in the story, including for murdering Aegon and Rhaenys. They should not have been killed, nor should they be ruling. Baby Aegon should not have a kingdom waiting for him to rule as an unearned entitlement after his grandfather tried to bomb an entire city. I know that all monarchies are unearned entitlements and this is the reality of Westeros, but Aerys "earned" the Targaryens to lose their power. Dynasties end all the time after major wars. Robert's Rebellion was a major war, precipitated by the awfulness of the Targaryens. Their dynasty needed to end. 7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Well, Robert claims it and nobody in his council doubts that nobles would join the Targaryens if it happened (Ned only rightly doubts that they would cross the sea). You have to remember that those who join the Dothraki wouldn't get attacked, Drogo is not a complete idiot. Robert is a fool, and nobody in his council is honest to him. Varys wanted Viserys to invade with the Dothraki (just not so soon), Baelish wants chaos, Pycelle is a pathological liar and wanted Robert dead, and Barristan was never the cleverest character. Also, I'm not talking about Drogo's relatively small khalasar in AGOT... I am talking about a united khalasar under the "stallion who mounts the world" in the future novels. After Dany hypothetically conquers Westeros with 100,000+ Dothraki, where do the Dothraki go then? Peacefully go back home because their khaleesi tells them to while she stays behind? Peacefully assimilate into Westeros culture and no one will know the difference? Continue their nomadic lifestyle with raiding and raping and looting and killing until the original culture of Westeros is destroyed? The last seems the most likely. Those who supported the Dothraki invasion at first would quickly change their minds. 7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: she could restrict them to a higher extent That's not how George Martin writes. No matter how heroic and perfect Dany is, no person can control 100,000+ people or change their engrained culture overnight. 7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: "Dragons don't plant trees" is a personal low point - Dany thinks she is ineffective and a failure as a ruler at this point. That wasn't the reason for that quote though. She is not meant to stay in place and make things better; she is meant to conquer with "fire and blood". And her low point comes at the finale of her written chapters. This isn't Dany simply having a bad day, but a major transition in her story. 7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Do you think that Dany will accept that the Dothraki rape innocents without doing anything about it? That's just completely contradictory to her character. She was very sad about forgetting Hazzea's name. I don't think Dany is a full-blown monster. But yes, I think the new Dany who has given up on peace and is embracing violence and conquest will accept the necessary evils of conquest. She was sad because she was losing her "mhysa" self... she forgot about the victims she thought she cared about, while still remembering the enemies she wants to destroy. 7 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: We don't see characters having serious problems with it, a single lord deserts him for it. Most of the Stormlanders follow him after Renly's death. His unpopularity has little to do with his religion (which makes little sense in a real medieval world, but ASOIAF is not a 1:1 analogue) and nothing with him hiring pirates and sellswords. I agree that Stannis's "heresy" doesn't negatively impact him as much as it seems it "should", but you're talking about people who fall under his "jurisdiction" turning against him. His few followers were supposed to be under his rule anyway, and they still barely followed him. The Stormlands were under Baratheon rule already so they mostly went to him when Renly died. The Reach, choosing to serve Renly, did not choose to serve Stannis. Regions of the North are following Stannis because he is better than the Greyjoys, and whether he worships the Seven or worships R'hillor (in fact, Stannis worships neither), he still doesn't worship the old gods so it makes no difference to them. I agree that hiring pirates should negatively impact him, and it hasn't. Yet those pirates are not acting as pirates under his service, but as sailors. I don't think anyone cares about hiring sellsworrds. The Bloody Mummers are notoriously awful, but in general sellswords are just soldiers. Dothraki are more than sellswords. Sellswords go home when the war is over; the Dothraki won't. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Tywin hiring Dothraki sellswords There's a world of difference between a few Dothraki joining a sellsword company and losing their Dothraki identity, vs an entire invading army of a Dothraki khalasar. And Westeros hates Tywin. Tywin doesn't care because he already has power; he is just maintaining it. It is different for Dany who doesn't have power and trying to gain it. I'm not saying that no one will back Dany. She just won't have the backing of the masses. Comparing her to Tywin, Westeros's worst villain in current times, isn't a great comparison. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Most Westerosi lords won't fight against Dany on an ideological basis (because she has Dothraki), because they are not suicidal. You might be right that they may easily surrender to Dany due to fear of dragons and Dothraki, but they sure won't love her for it. I think that letting Dothraki into their lands without resistance would also be suicidal. They won't be well-behaved. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: That said, it's difficult to speculate about her support when we don't know the situation in which she will arrive in. Well, obviously I agree. When we're talking about unpublished books, however, all we can do is speculate. George Martin is a gardener so his original plan doesn't really matter... but Dany invading Westeros with Dothraki was always his original plan. The Unsullied and other sellsword companies were add-ons as his garden grew. With the way ADWD ends, I would be shocked if Dany doesn't arrive in Westeros with a semi-united khalasar. The Unsullied and sellswords... who knows. 8 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: For example, Aegon will be an obvious ally if he is still alive and Dany believes him real (and Tyrion has no reason to tell him otherwise) Tyrells seem to be an obvious candidate that could shift to support her if Dany goes war with Aegon and/or Euron. Aegon may be an "obvious" ally in real-world terms, but not from a plot perspective. He didn't appear so late in the story so Dany will suddenly have a Targaryen husband and the Golden Company at her service. His plot purpose was to create strife... so that that the Targaryen loyalists who would have flocked to her will largely flock to him instead. Aegon already decided he can win the throne without her, and he will likely be married to Arianne before Dany arrives. Yep, the Tyrells/Reach will undoubtedly shift to support the Targaryens. Supporting her over Aegon doesn't seem obvious to me. I don't think Dany will have any easy allies, and she will have to take her power by force. This isn't a story about Dany building her dragon power and army power just to have a throne waiting for her upon her arrival so she can then unite her admiring people to fight the Others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 (edited) @StarkTulliesYou can’t play nice, when no one else does. Dany spent ADWD behaving towards her enemies like Baldwin and Chamberlain did, while her enemies behaved like Hitler and Mussolini. You can’t be Mhysa and plant trees when your enemies want to kill you and re-enslave your people. Nothing makes Dany an outlier, among other sympathetic characters, all of whom are willing to treat war as just another form of politics. Edited August 15, 2023 by SeanF csuszka1948, Ser Arthurs Dawn and Morte 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, StarkTullies said: She was sad because she was losing her "mhysa" self... she forgot about the victims she thought she cared about, while still remembering the enemies she wants to destroy. She still remembered Eroeh, so she still cares about vicims. Dany doesn't half "two selves" (that would be like saying that Jon Snow has a "bastard" and a "Stark" half), she just becomes more ruthless. Not remembering Hezza symbolizes that she values the life of her dragons over that of Hazzea and thinks she shouldn't locked them up. 1 hour ago, StarkTullies said: Well, obviously I agree. When we're talking about unpublished books, however, all we can do is speculate. George Martin is a gardener so his original plan doesn't really matter... but Dany invading Westeros with Dothraki was always his original plan. The Unsullied and other sellsword companies were add-ons as his garden grew. With the way ADWD ends, I would be shocked if Dany doesn't arrive in Westeros with a semi-united khalasar. The Unsullied and sellswords... who knows. Yes, it was his original purpose. But is this still her purpose now that she arrives so late? I just can't see it working. GRRM is a gardener and he tends to keep the roles he comes up with but assigns them to other characters. The role of Jaime from the original outline is played by Littlefinger and Cersei, the role of Tyrion by Theon (identity crisis, sacking Winterfell) and Ramsay (Tyrion/Arya/Jon triangle replaced with Ramsay/'Arya'/Jon opposition). As far as I see, Dany's role as invader of a stable kingdom and second great threat to peace has been replaced with Aegon and Euron after GRRM scrapped the 5-year gap. It was this answer from GRRM that someone showed me and which convinced me on the matter: "NG: Three more volumes of A Song of Ice and Fire wait to be written. What shape do you expect them to take, and are their titles finalized as yet? GRRM: Yes, three more volumes remain. The series could almost be considered as two linked trilogies, although I tend to think of it more as one long story. The next book, A Dance With Dragons, will focus on the return of Daenerys Targaryen to Westeros, and the conflicts that creates. After that comes The Winds of Winter. I have been calling the final volume A Time For Wolves, but I am not happy with that title and will probably change it if I can come up with one that I like better." - 2000, after ASOS 1 hour ago, StarkTullies said: Aegon may be an "obvious" ally in real-world terms, but not from a plot perspective. He didn't appear so late in the story so Dany will suddenly have a Targaryen husband and the Golden Company at her service. His plot purpose was to create strife... so that that the Targaryen loyalists who would have flocked to her will largely flock to him instead. Aegon already decided he can win the throne without her, and he will likely be married to Arianne before Dany arrives. Well, that's highly speculative. Dany has absolutely no reason to oppose her nephew (and Tyrion will tell him Aegon is her nephew, because he wants to unite the two claimants against his family) and Tyrion's cyvasse game foreshadows that she will be too far away to save him: 'Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. “I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four.” The prince stared at the playing board. “My dragon—” “—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle.” “But you said—” “I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close.”' Besides, I doubt that GRRM created him so that the Targaryen loyalists flock to him over Dany (which the text disproves so far), because that would lead to conclusion that Dany made a mistake staying in Meereen in ADWD and she should have invaded the Seven Kingdoms earlier, which is antithetical to the themes of the story. It would be like saying that Tywin was right in ignoring the Watch and Stannis was wrong helping them, or that Jon was wrong staying in the Night's Watch in ADWD instead of accepting Stannis' offer. 1 hour ago, StarkTullies said: Yep, the Tyrells/Reach will undoubtedly shift to support the Targaryens. Supporting her over Aegon doesn't seem obvious to me. It's pretty obvious. Aegon will probably defeat and kill Mace Tyrell and reward the Golden Company (most of whom are descended from the Reach) and their 'friends of the Reach' with lands. The Tyrells are very likely to back Dany if she decided to oppose Aegon or helped them fight against Euron. 1 hour ago, StarkTullies said: I don't think Dany will have any easy allies, and she will have to take her power by force. This isn't a story about Dany building her dragon power and army power just to have a throne waiting for her upon her arrival so she can then unite her admiring people to fight the Others. Well, I am not sure the Throne will even stand, but it's pretty impossible for her not to have any allies. The war between Aegon, Tommen and Euron will have losing sides, and these will ally with her. I think uniting what remains of the South won't be that difficult, it's dealing with the reunited North (Starks, Riverlands, Vale) which has bad memories of Targaryens that will prove challenging. Edited August 15, 2023 by csuszka1948 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted August 16, 2023 Share Posted August 16, 2023 Since everybody is about the right of conquest. Whoever has the power to claim it in the end. The Targaryen have been usurped. So that's currently means Aegon's and Dany's claim to the throne are about as strong as Hot Pies. Stannis has no real claim. Robert never questioned the legitimacy of Cersei's children. So right now little Tommen is the rightful king. After that it's either Margaery or Edric Storm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted August 16, 2023 Share Posted August 16, 2023 On 1/18/2023 at 12:22 AM, King Jaehaerys II said: Going into the WOW , which claim to the throne do you support the most? I really like young Griff/Aegon but I have to say Stannis the Mannis young Griff:)) I'll support him to the bitter end! Ser Arthurs Dawn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted August 16, 2023 Share Posted August 16, 2023 Jon Snow all the way, when his true identity is revealed. Aegon is a fraud #FakeAegon Dany is entitled Stannis is crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 16 hours ago, Darryk said: Jon Snow all the way, when his true identity is revealed. Aegon is a fraud #FakeAegon Dany is entitled Stannis is crazy but he "don't want it" Targaryen or Blackfyre . Aegon VI, all the way! Jaenara Belarys and Darryk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.