Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 51 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: We know Robert didn't smile about it. Where was it mentioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Where was it mentioned? Ned doesn't mention that Robert smiled when recalling what he said. I don't think there would be a reason for Ned to omit it if it did happen so I would assume it didn't happen. But 'know' was a poor word choice on my part. I will change it to 'suggested' instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 10 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Where was it mentioned? It's mentioned that Robert may have smiled Quote "Prince Rhaegar had two children," Ser Barristan told him. "Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King's Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king." And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin's gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar's children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. "I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I'll have no part of this." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said: It's mentioned that Robert may have smiled How is that a mention? Barristan says he doesn't know because he wasn't there. Ned when recalling the event never mentions a smile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: It's mentioned that Robert may have smiled We don’t know if he smiled or not. But, it doesn’t really matter. “I see no babes, only dragonspawn” makes his views quite clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: How is that a mention? The words appear 17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Barristan says he doesn't know because he wasn't there. Ned when recalling the event never mentions a smile... He doesn't mention his shoes either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: He doesn't mention his shoes either Yes, and he doesn't mention that Robert is a man, or that he's alive, or that he's wearing clothes...Ned feels very strongly about the issue so I think he would mention it if Robert smiled. That would be a jarring thing to do in a situation like that, not just some trivial detail Ned would gloss over when recalling the event. 6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: The words appear In the context that Barristan is questioning whether it happened or not. Not as a definite statement saying Robert smiled. It doesn't even say 'Robert may have smiled', Barristan is thinking 'I wonder if Robert smiled or not?', I don't think they are the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said: Yes, and he doesn't mention that Robert is a man, or that he's alive, or that he's wearing clothes...Ned feels very strongly about the issue so I think he would mention it if Robert smiled. That would be a jarring thing to do in a situation like that, not just some trivial detail Ned would gloss over when recalling the event. In the context that Barristan is questioning whether it happened or not. Not as a definite statement saying Robert smiled. It doesn't even say 'Robert may have smiled', Barristan is thinking 'I wonder if Robert smiled or not?', I don't think they are the same thing. Agree. I also think that irt the brutal murder of Rhaenys and Aegon there’s a component there of Robert not wanting to look weak in front of the others. Mind you, I’m not at all saying that deep down he had all the right feelings or whatever, he didn’t. But his behaviour & demeanor suggest to me a degree of concern with how others around him would see him if he behaved like a decent human being. For many reasons, not excluding the fact that Robert, among many other flaws, is also a coward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: That would be a jarring thing to do in a situation like that, not just some trivial detail Ned would gloss over when recalling the event. Ned's not recalling a situation (well, I guess he is lol. Still not like Barri). GRRM is setting his stage Quote "Daenerys Targaryen has wed some Dothraki horselord. What of it? Shall we send her a wedding gift?" The king frowned. "A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it." Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. Very quick tid bit info to get the reader into the book, not bogged down in adjectives from a flashback. 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: In the context that Barristan is questioning whether it happened or not. Not as a definite statement saying Robert smiled. It doesn't even say 'Robert may have smiled', Barristan is thinking 'I wonder if Robert smiled or not?', I don't think they are the same thing. It would have never crossed our minds if the book didn't have that paragraph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Yes, and he doesn't mention that Robert is a man, or that he's alive, or that he's wearing clothes...Ned feels very strongly about the issue so I think he would mention it if Robert smiled. That would be a jarring thing to do in a situation like that, not just some trivial detail Ned would gloss over when recalling the event. In the context that Barristan is questioning whether it happened or not. Not as a definite statement saying Robert smiled. It doesn't even say 'Robert may have smiled', Barristan is thinking 'I wonder if Robert smiled or not?', I don't think they are the same thing. Given that Selmy served Robert for over a decade, we can assume he knows him pretty well and probably heard him rant about dragons more times than he can count. Add to that dragon spawn, etc. and I think we are supposed to assume, from Selmy’s comment, that Robert smiling in those circumstances would have been well within his wheelhouse. I don’t see any other reason for GRRM to include that comment, it doesn’t tell us anything about Selmy or anyone else we don’t already know. Edit: remember the Laughing Storm’s Rebellion, which is part of the history for a clear reason; your proto-Baratheon is supposed to love fighting, laughing, chasing women hunting, etc, but if they think you have slighted their pride they are quite happy to see thousands die rather than accept it. Ours is the Fury indeed. Fury is not known for setting limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 His father died seeking a wife for Rhaegar in a pointless journey, and then the spoiled prince picks someone that was already on Westeros. Not being enough, when Robert gets a new family and the oportunity to mingle with the brother he choose, the spoiled prince shows up again and takes his bride. Then the mad king, kills the family of his best friend, and asks for his head, for no reason whatsoever...then the spoiled prince that started all that mess stays out of the war while he and his best friend and foster father fight for their lifes. When everything starts to get in line, Rhaegar shows up again and tries to kill him in battle, and even wounds him in the fight. After Robert wins his war, he has to reign with Damocles's sword hanging over him, with the constant threat of Viserys coming for him for the crime of fighting for his life. In his place I would curse Rhaegar everyday too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: His father died seeking a wife for Rhaegar in a pointless journey, and then the spoiled prince picks someone that was already on Westeros. Not being enough, when Robert gets a new family and the oportunity to mingle with the brother he choose, the spoiled prince shows up again and takes his bride. Then the mad king, kills the family of his best friend, and asks for his head, for no reason whatsoever...then the spoiled prince that started all that mess stays out of the war while he and his best friend and foster father fight for their lifes. When everything starts to get in line, Rhaegar shows up again and tries to kill him in battle, and even wounds him in the fight. After Robert wins his war, he has to reign with Damocles's sword hanging over him, with the constant threat of Viserys coming for him for the crime of fighting for his life. In his place I would curse Rhaegar everyday too. And the babies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 47 minutes ago, James Arryn said: And the babies? He hates everything Rhaegar-related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 9 hours ago, James Arryn said: I think we are supposed to assume, from Selmy’s comment, that Robert smiling in those circumstances would have been well within his wheelhouse. I don’t see any other reason for GRRM to include that comment, it doesn’t tell us anything about Selmy or anyone else we don’t already know. If we are supposed to assume Robert did smile though, why didn't Barristan think something like 'Robert likely smiled' or 'if he'd seen Robert's smile' rather than wondering whether he smiled or not? Add that Ned doesn't mention a smile at all even though he cares strongly about the issue and it seems to me more likely that Robert didn't smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: If we are supposed to assume Robert did smile though, why didn't Barristan think something like 'Robert likely smiled' or 'if he'd seen Robert's smile' rather than wondering whether he smiled or not? Add that Ned doesn't mention a smile at all even though he cares strongly about the issue and it seems to me more likely that Robert didn't smile. Smiling isn’t a crime. It’s a physical manifestation of an emotional response, in this case to the murder of two babies. I think we are supposed to think that he expressed that feeling about Targs/the event consistently enough that a man who knows him well thinks he had the feelings consistent with the smile, at which point the actual smile is pretty incidental. His Dany conversations and literal dehumanization looking at the bodies of two very young children, calling them dragon spawn…these are all other indications of those feelings. And importantly we’re shown these through Ned and Barristan, two of the more honourable and reliable narrators, who show us how we should feel about Robert’s feelings here. And then remember Lyanna’s using her dying breath to extract the promise from Ned; what knowledge prompted that certainty? Robert’s established realpolitik? Or something darker? Lastly, consider Tywin’s expressed motivation for the atrocity…and the fact that he was right, it worked as he predicted at winning Robert’s approval and earning his forgiveness for his late arrival, even at the risk of losing Ned. So much so that they were raised to be the second family of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Robert, according to a 2014 Martin interview, no longer believed he should fear the Targaryens. A feeling which contributed to the plan to form a family alliance to oppose his rightful king. Remember, bastards are always seen as threats. Robert, whose roots came from a bastard, gives proof to the bias. He, like the Blackfyres, probably thought he was as worthy and as entitled to rule as the Targaryens. We already know, he failed Westeros. Rhaegar’s flower gesture to Lyanna wounded Robert’s pride. The Stark brothers probably knew the truth, Lyanna ran away. But perpetuated the kidnapping lie to protect the illusion of Stark honor, preserve relations with Robert, and spare Robert’s pride. Robert, the truth hidden from him, hated the Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 2 hours ago, James Arryn said: So much so that they were raised to be the second family of Westeros. Not necessarily disagree with much of what you're saying bit this bit is explicitly Arryn's doing. Kinda like the only sensible option anyway. To the new topic, I think it's kinda unlikely that he did smile although not out of the realm of possibility. His discussion with Ned implies indifference and hatred but not ouright glee and it's no so difficult to see why after a decade and a half of hearing him ranting about the Targs, the thought crossed his mind. But it's left vague enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 5 minutes ago, The Commentator said: A feeling which contributed to the plan to form a family alliance to oppose his rightful king. Where is the proof of this alliance, where is the proof that Robert knew of this supposed purpose? It is not a crime for the great houses to marry amongst themselves. Do you really think anyone seriously plotting would include Robert, make him aware of the secret knowledge? 5 minutes ago, The Commentator said: Robert, whose roots came from a bastard And from the Durrandons, who were supposedly descended from gods, who had been kings for thousands of years in their own right before the Targaryens showed up calling themselves lords of some rock in the middle of the ocean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 2 hours ago, frenin said: Not necessarily disagree with much of what you're saying bit this bit is explicitly Arryn's doing. Kinda like the only sensible option anyway. To the new topic, I think it's kinda unlikely that he did smile although not out of the realm of possibility. His discussion with Ned implies indifference and hatred but not ouright glee and it's no so difficult to see why after a decade and a half of hearing him ranting about the Targs, the thought crossed his mind. But it's left vague enough. Well, first, I agree it was Jon Arryn’s arrangements/nous. If Tywin were entirely calling the tune Jaime’s be back at CR. But in order to get into the position where JA could make those arrangements, Robert first had to overlook Tywin not joining in the war and then belatedly taking an extreme step without consulting anyone. That was a very precarious spot to be in, and Tywin gambled that Robert would approve of the murders but be glad to not have to sully his rep; in that respect I think he was sort of right, sort of wrong. I think an angry Robert condones almost anything, but once he cools down he’ll care some. But he kept the Targ thing on ~ low boil until his death bed, and therefore kept condoning things Tywin had thought he would not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 I think it had something to do with the death of his girlfriend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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